U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to delist wolves nationwide in a few weeks

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Aim1

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This is great news!!!

Especially in Minnesota where wolves have decimated deer and moose populations. I'm not a kill them all type but they need to be managed to a far lower level than they currently are.

Ironically they claim "climate change" is what's killing the moose but there are so many moose on Isle Royale that they reintroduced wolves to lower their numbers. Is Isle Royale a utopia that is impervious to climate change than?


http://strib.mn/2TqijRR

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I am a kill them all type of guy when it comes to wolves.
They breed like rabbits and kill anything with in reach. Ask the average Washinguon State deer, elk, moose hunter or the cattle farmers in the Eestern part of the state.
When it comes to wolves, NONE IS BETTER.

That type of attitude will never get us a hunting/trapping season though.
 
YEAH!!!

If I am not mistaken, it will now be up to Minnesota to have a hunting and trapping season.

Hope so!

Where our party hunts, the deer population waxes and wans with the packs of TimberDawgs coming through every 6 - 10 days. No deer, no wolves, but I would like to see less wolves which would help the population of deer and moose, not withstanding harsh winters for the whitetail's sake. Plus the wolves do take out the moose, primarily the vulnerable calves.
 
When the wolves show up and there are no deer, elk or moose left in your area tell me how you love the wolves.

A couple boom and bust population cycles might happen in the short term depending on how and in what numbers the wolves arrive but predator and prey will come to an equilibrium in a matter of seasons. Been that way long before the tool users arrived. The environment will be more robust and more interesting for their return.

Going to sleep at hunt camp to the howls of coyotes is nice, to the howls of a wolf would be something special.

Probably won't happen in my lifetime, if ever...
 
My wife and I and a favorite couple of ours from Montana went into Yellowstone on opening day about ten years ago.(still a huge amount of snow lined the roads going in) Many years before, I think it was the Druid wolfpack that had been transplanted into Yellowstone and multiplied quite rapidly. From nature films on TV that I saw before actually going into the park, Yellowstone was an Elk paradise with hundreds perhaps a thousand Elk milling about. We didn't see one Elk, not the first and man was I disappointed. We saw plenty of Buffalo, one Grizzly and one Black bear. For those that wish unrestricted wolf packs to be introduced into their surroundings are really wishing for the decimation of deer and anything else that they wish to hunt. The Druid pack and others that still roam Yellowstone have been disastrous and the funny thing about it is that wolves bring a real sense of wilderness to wherever they live but make no mistake they are killing machines. I'm glad to see the action being taken by the US Fish and Wildlife Service!
 
I’ll respectfully disagree with the assessment that wolves ‘breed like rabbits’ and ‘kill anything within reach’. Wolf reproduction patterns are not at all similar to rabbit reproduction patterns, and the rate of population increase is not that great. As for their bloodthirsty nature, they are not killers for ‘fun’, but for food. And they don’t hang trophies from their hunts on the wall, so they might be one up on us in that department.

USFWS and state game departments all together estimate the total number of wolves in the US—including Alaska—at between 13,000 and 20,000, about two-thirds of which are in Seward’s Folly. Canada harbors about 50-60K wolves (and probably still some small number of draft dodgers). Oddly enough, moose, deer, and elk hunting in Canada continues to go pretty well. In areas of the lower 48 where wolves had been long ago removed and deer and elk populations increased dramatically (when habitat and human behavior allowed), the very large numbers of hungry ungulates caused significant changes in habitats, and not infrequently outstripped the food supply, leading to many deaths from disease and starvation. Those areas with a surfeit of (readily hunted) deer/elk often saw improved health of both the deer & elk populations and habitat condition after wolf reintroduction; wolves reduced the numbers of ungulates, and did so first and foremost by taking down the old, sick, and so forth.

Tolerance and balance would be my desires.
 
My wife and I and a favorite couple of ours from Montana went into Yellowstone on opening day about ten years ago.(still a huge amount of snow lined the roads going in) Many years before, I think it was the Druid wolfpack that had been transplanted into Yellowstone and multiplied quite rapidly. From nature films on TV that I saw before actually going into the park, Yellowstone was an Elk paradise with hundreds perhaps a thousand Elk milling about. We didn't see one Elk, not the first and man was I disappointed. We saw plenty of Buffalo, one Grizzly and one Black bear. For those that wish unrestricted wolf packs to be introduced into their surroundings are really wishing for the decimation of deer and anything else that they wish to hunt. The Druid pack and others that still roam Yellowstone have been disastrous and the funny thing about it is that wolves bring a real sense of wilderness to wherever they live but make no mistake they are killing machines. I'm glad to see the action being taken by the US Fish and Wildlife Service!

Sorry to hear that you didn’t see any elk. I can assure they’re still around, though. The last time I camped in Yellowstone, in about ‘08, a couple young bulls came into my campsite, and one of ‘em nibbled on my tent. So yeah, they’re around. Back in the early ‘90s, there were nearly 20,000 elk in/near Yellowstone. That number fell after wolves were reintroduced, but elk in the park still numbered in the several thousands even at the low point. Now there are estimated to be 12-14,000 elk in the area, more than the “objective” number of the state game people in Wyoming, and they’re talking of increasing elk permits.
 
Paco42, glad to hear the Elk populations are on the rebound. My understanding of what happened back then was that wolves presenting a new danger to the Elk made many leave the park. Not surprising but due to this Elk started to inhabit areas in Montana that previously didn't have an Elk population. So I guess there was a benefit to the Druid pack. The very time that we were out there the last known wolf from the Druid pack was killed by a rancher near Butte, Mt. This doesn't mean that wolf packs were wiped out, far from it, but other packs had different names.
 
Wolves existed along with deer, elk and moose for thousands of years before Europeans came to the continent. If wolves were an extinction level threat to wild ungulates, how do deer elk and moose even exist? Why weren't they wiped out by wolves before white men first set foot here?

Wild predators balance the ecosystem in a way we humans cannot. Their populations just need to be controlled around areas of human activity.
 
I only hope that the delisting does not result in decimating the wolf population. I do understand the that wolves are superior pack predators that can take a heavy toll on wild, domestic, and husbanded animals. Still I see wolves a regal canines. They mate for life and will defend any member of the pack at any cost. I guess I relate to that because of my Once a Marine always a Marine creed which is a pack mentality. I will spare you the howling sound. Every plant and animal on our planet has a purpose to serve. While we humans now regulate that service, I hope we do not decimate the wolf population as w did in the past..
 
...As for their bloodthirsty nature, they are not killers for ‘fun’, but for food.
I have seen plenty of domestic dogs and cats kill for fun. I found evidence indicating that coyotes and bobcats killed for fun. I doubt wolves are somehow squeamish and only kill when hungry.

I will trust the observations made with my own eyes (live in front of me and evidence indicating such on the ground) before I trust your words. Makes the rest of your words seem shaky and shifty, too.

Additionally....
Oddly enough, moose, deer, and elk hunting in Canada continues to go pretty well.
Moose, deer, and elk in Canada developed along with the Canadian wolf at those latitudes. At minimum, moose, deer, and elk at those higher latitudes are larger-bodied than those in CONUS. The ungulates in the lower 48 developed over time with a physically smaller wolf preying on them. Dropping Canadian wolves on top of them is akin to dropping an invasive species into the environment. Four-legged kudzu. Ambulatory Asian Carp. I still marvel that anyone thought dropping Canadian wolves in CONUS was a good idea.

And few folks acknowledge that coyotes and foxes get wiped out where the big Canadian wolves are introduced.

I swear the only people who want wolves around are people who don't live with them.
True, that. And it applies to more critters than just wolves.
 
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I'm all for the presence of wolves in MN, having been a longtime resident. I'm also all for regulated hunting and trapping of the critters. We have a healthy population of them, in no danger of collapse, especially with a core population in the BWCA and Quetico wilderness areas where even unrestricted hunting and trapping coupled with high fur prices through the 1930s failed to wipe them out. I do believe less wolves in parts of our state would be a good thing, but I don't want to see them exterminated either. Since 2000, they have expanded into areas that are less "wilderness" and more "farm," and this has led to many conflicts with cattle growers. I think a reduction in the core populations in the more forested regions may decrease the pressure on those animals to move out of their core range and establish new territories where they are certainly less than welcome.
 
I only hope that the delisting does not result in decimating the wolf population.
I don't see how "delisting" equates to "decimating." The wolves here in Idaho were officially "delisted" in 2011, the Idaho Department of Fish and Game regulates the hunting of them, and there's still plenty of them around.
NOTE: I didn't say "there's too many of them around." I like wolves, but I believe their populations need to be regulated just like most other wildlife species' - especially big game species'. Furthermore, I believe that regulation is better handled by the individual state's wildlife services - NOT by federal wildlife services.
The article the OP linked in his post is about how Minnesota's "path isn't clear" when the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service delists wolves. I have a feeling Minnesota will get it figured out without federal interference. Idaho has.;)
 
I have seen plenty of domestic dogs and cats kill for fun. I found evidence indicating that coyotes and bobcats killed for fun. I doubt wolves are somehow squeamish and only kill when hungry.

I will trust the observations made with my own eyes (live in front of me and evidence indicating such on the ground) before I trust your words. Makes the rest of your words seem shaky and shifty, too.

Additionally....

Moose, deer, and elk in Canada developed along with the Canadian wolf at those latitudes. At minimum, moose, deer, and elk at those higher latitudes are larger-bodied than those in CONUS. The ungulates in the lower 48 developed over time with a physically smaller wolf preying on them. Dropping Canadian wolves on top of them is akin to dropping an invasive species into the environment. Four-legged kudzu. Ambulatory Asian Carp. I still marvel that anyone thought dropping Canadian wolves in CONUS was a good idea.

And few folks acknowledge that coyotes and foxes get wiped out where the big Canadian wolves are introduced.

True, that. And it applies to more critters than just wolves.

Uh, no, not really. It’s more or less a matter of misinterpreting occasional behavior of some animals as constant, beyond-habitual behavior of all. Any notion that wolves—or other large predators—frequently and routinely kill, especially larger prey, such as deer, elk, etc., just for “fun” is simply not backed up by evidence.

As for significant size differences in moose, deer, elk, and wolves between populations in Canada and the lower 48 states, well, that doesn’t really apply in the regions where this is generally such a hotly contested topic. Wolves in Minnesota, Montana, Washington, Idaho, etc. are basically indistinguishable from their counterparts in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and British Columbia. As are the moose, etc. Bringing Canadian wolves in to augment a population in, say, Yellowstone is certainly not “akin to dropping an invasive species into the environment”. Indeed, those responsible for it very carefully considered such notions and found them to have no basis in fact. The accumulated evidence since bears that out—all indications are that re-introduction of wolves does much more to restore ecosystems in those areas where they were native than anything else. Besides, it’s important to recognize that the border between the US and Canada isn’t much recognized by nature. Wolves thrive in Minnesota like they do in Canada because Minnesota—like Montana, Idaho, Washington, and Wyoming—is pretty darn similar to areas of Canada.

Wolves in southern Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, and places like that are indeed often a bit different from their northern kin. So are the rabbits, coyotes, deer, and more. But it’s not really relevant to the discussion here, which started with an article from Minnesota, not Tucson.

Finally, you claim that coyotes and foxes are “wiped out” where the “big Canadian wolves” are introduced. This, too, is simply not true. The numbers of coyotes and foxes may diminish in such situations, but before long an equilibrium is reached, and, given enough space and proper large-scale land management, each can thrive. This was true down through the eons in which they evolved in shared ecosystems, and remains true today, with the only screwing-it-all-up factor being human mismanagement.
 
One can’t have wilderness without wild. A full and complete wilderness ecosystem includes all the critters, big, small, and otherwise, that have evolved togther over innumerable millennia in that system. I prefer wilderness to be as complete, intact, and non-human affected as possible. It’s been said that “If there ain’t nothing there that can eat ya, it’s not wilderness.” One could expand that to “If there ain’t nothing there that can eat you, or your horse, your cow, your goat, or your nasty sister-in-law, it’s not wilderness.”

As the human footprint continues to grow on this non-expanding planet, areas of truly natural ecosystems are constantly divided, squished, paved, burned, and more. One way of dealing with the burgeoning conflict between humans and the denizens of the systems we encroach upon is for us to simply eliminate those creatures we find threatening, problematic, or just...inconvenient. Another is to acknowledge that we share the planet with its other creatures, which deserve respect and consideration and, well, life. We are the most powerful species on the planet. It is our responsibility to find ways to live with, not against, nature. Sure, there might be some rough edges, inconvenience, and even injury/death. That comes along with life, no matter how it’s packaged.
 
@Paco42 those were some excellent posts!

All I can say is, I hope those "Canadian" wolves have their passports, and immigration paperwork in order. :rofl:

As you say, Borders mean nothing to wildlife.
 
I invision this thread will become a hot topic here shortly. There are those who have seen the damage large predators do and those who's only knowledge of large predators comes from an agency who twist facts to further their agenda.
As far as written here they only take the old, the young and sick & injured i can atest that it total BS. I have seen remains of trophy animals killed by predators and videos of nice large healthy animals being killed by large predators.
They did a study on deer, elk & predators over on the Olympic Peninsula.
They glassed clear cuts for deer does with new born fawns and elk with new born calves. They captured the fawns and calves took DNA samples and transmiters on them. When they stopped moving around for a certain amount of time they went to see what was up with the fawn or calf.
The first year it was 75% predator death.
1st by cougars
2nd by coyotes
3rd by bears
4th by bobcats.
The 2nd year was 50% mortallity
Mostly by cougars and coyotes.

So in that study area a deer or elk had a 12 1/2% chance to live to be two years old.
They treed and tagged a female cougar in that area. She would averege one deer kill every four days.
A 130 pound cougar doesnt need that much meat to survive. Probably over havf went to waste by her. But I'm sure the coyotes and other wild life cleaned a lot of the kill up.
Now they imported these woulves whivh way just as much as an adult cougar or more that run in packs of four to eight animals that average a deer kill a piece in less then a week you are talking four to eight deer every week.
When wolves show up the large prey animals die pretty fast. If you belive the bambi story more power to you. But when you are close to the devistation these animals do you quit believing the bambi senerio about they only kill the oldn the young and tje weak.
 
Well, I’m not sure just who it is here whose only knowledge of large predators comes from “an agency who twist facts to further their agenda”, but let me assure you it isn’t me. I’ve spent much time in each of the areas mentioned, much of it alone, in the wilderness, or with small groups. I’ve observed and often had to deal with every large predator found in North America. I come from a farming/ranching family. I’ve seen dead cattle, sheep, dogs, chickens, goats, cats, and probably goldfish that were killed by predators ranging from bobcats and coyotes to bears and pumas. But I don’t rely only my own observations and experience. I also read, study, and listen. Next month I’ll be in bear country for a week. Most of this summer I’ll be where wolves howling is not an unexpected event, and most of that I’ll be far from paved roads and quilted comforters. I’ve come face-to-face with a mountain lion that wasn’t happy to see me. I’ve encountered bears that insisted on using the path through the woods I happened to be on. I’ve seen a cow moose with a calf stand her ground in front of a brown bear. I’ve watched a wolf pack chase down an elk in the snow. So let’s just quit attacking messengers, so to speak, and deal with facts.

Yes, sometimes a wolf pack (or other predator) will take a big, healthy animal. But more often, they take the first one they can get, because it’s easier, less risky, less costly to them in terms of time and energy. Nature, red in tooth and claw, as the saying goes, includes some nasty events, like a fawn being taken by a puma, say, or a wolf pack dragging down a doe. The mortality rate for young creatures often is quite high, by our way of thinking. But looked at a different way, let’s consider for a moment what would happen if the deer survival rate through the first two years was 80%.

A deer becomes able to reproduce at about a year of age. In an area with a reasonable population density—e.g., where deer aren’t quite rare—the fecundity rate amongst yearling does averages about 75-85%. In older deer, the number is about the same. Most does deliver either 1 or 2 fawns—average about 1.5. Starting with a population of 100 deer, 50 of which are yearling-or-older does, we see that after one year the population will have increased to about 125 (about 30-40 yearlings, with some of the adults having died from whatever causes), with about 60 does, +/-. In two years, the population is up to about 160, and in four years, the population will have approximately doubled. That rate of growth of the population is clearly unsustainable. If adding wolves brings the two-year survival rate of newborns down to 12.5%, that puts us in the realm of a stable population, as the natural attrition rate due to adult mortality in most populations is a bit below even that.

The evidence clearly shows that wolves, as participants in a suitable natural system, rarely if ever “destroy” the populations of deer, elk, moose, or other prey animals. Anecdotes of some type of event or another are merely, at best, small bits of data about a large and complex system. Systematized data collection, at an adequate scale, by objective observers, covering a wide range of carefully selected variables, is a scientific, not story-around-the-campfire, sort of approach. To pooh-pooh science because it doesn’t produce the conclusion you want is, well, it just ain’t smart.

Now let me be clear—I haven’t proposed turning wolves loose in Central Park, downtown Minneapolis, etc. Nor have I proposed a ban on wolf hunting. I’ve not offered an opinion about the de-listing of wolves from the ESA. Management of predator populations in the context of ranching and farming must be undertaken for the good of all concerned—rationally, responsibly, and with a view to the long-term health of ecosystems and the planet. But the notion that wolves are some sort of evil-incarnate creature is just plain silly.
 
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