Using electronic muffs while wearing foam plugs?

[SunnySlopes]

I've tried it with various electronic muffs but still without success. The muffs don't seem to amplify ambient sounds enough to be practical. My current muffs are Howard Leight Impact Sport muffs.

This is for field use. For range use I use ordinary non-electric muffs with foam plugs.

I'd like to wear foam plugs with electronic muffs and be able to hear leaves rustling, etc.

Suggestions?

 

[AK Hunter]

The normal hearing protection type ear muffs can amplify sounds & cancel out the sound of a rifle shot so why would you need the foam plugs.
If the muffs are placed properly over your ears it should take care of your hearing protection needs.

 

[Hartkopf]

I sometimes wear these at the range and the low level amplification is crazy good. Leaves rustling and brass tinking is almost distracting. I’m constantly turning the volume down to find what would be a real, unprotected noise level.

 

[SunnySlopes]

The normal hearing protection type ear muffs can amplify sounds & cancel out the sound of a rifle shot so why would you need the foam plugs.
If the muffs are placed properly over your ears it should take care of your hearing protection needs.

"We" were told, back in the day, that plugs filter one frequency; muffs filter another frequency; and that gunshots produce the entire frequency range. I.e., a shooter needs both to filter out damaging noise.

 

[SunnySlopes]

I sometimes wear these at the range and the low level amplification is crazy good. Leaves rustling and brass tinking is almost distracting. I’m constantly turning the volume down to find what would be a real, unprotected noise level.

And you're wearing earplugs during all of this?

 

[Hartkopf]

And you're wearing earplugs during all of this?

No just the electronic muffs. Just for rare occasions though. Most of the time I wear only foam plugs and nothing else.

 

[film495]

we shoot outdoors, and although not needed I have messed around with foam plugs and electronic muffs. for the most part with the muffs and foam plugs, if I turn up the volume on the muffs the whole way, it is distorted, but to me - seems about like normal hearing levels. with just the muffs, it certainly amplifies your normal hearing, so - what you're doing there certainly is some combination of muffs and foam plugs that will seem similar to regular hearing.

 

[SunnySlopes]

No just the electronic muffs. Just for rare occasions though. Most of the time I wear only foam plugs and nothing else.

Thanks, but I'm exploring plugs and muffs combined.

 

[Hartkopf]

Thanks, but I'm exploring plugs and muffs combined.

Sorry I didn’t complete my initial thought. The Walker’s are SO loud, they might work better than what you’ve been using. I’ll try to play with them, with foam plugs and post back. Might be tomorrow though.

 

[Hartkopf]

Thanks, but I'm exploring plugs and muffs combined.

Ok I just tested foam ear plugs (3M yellow) with my Walker Ultimate Alpha electronic muffs for low level sound quality. With the volume all the way up it was very close to what unprotected sounds like. Slightly muffled and maybe 10% quieter but I was able to hear the TV clearly and hear the wife ask me what the heck I was doing with muffs on in the house. It was crystal clear. No static or distortion.

 

[Nuke8401]

I wear/have worn for years the combination of electronic muffs and Surefire EarPro Sonic Defenders Plus. These plugs are reusable rubber ear plugs with a hole through the center when unplugged. The combination of these and electronic muffs give me plentily of volume for range commands and hearing in the woods. Foams just block too much. This combination really works to hear normal volume voice commands at the range during competition and similarly in the woods.

 

[CapnMac]

The problem with hearing is that it's complicated.

If we only look at decibels (a tenth of a Bel, hence the abbreviation dB), that's a logarithmic measure of volume.

Roughly speaking (NPI) gunshots run from 140 to 160 dB. Equally roughly, most shooting hearing protection offers about 20-30 dB of "protection."

Now, average foam plugs, used to instructions, will get close to 30 dB. That will reduce that gunshot to 110-130 dB.

This is where is gets complicated. For a bit more than 50% of all humans, hearing damage occurs around 100 dB. Tricky part is that the damage is not immediate, nor entirely evident--it's very much a cumulative thing. OSHA has a rule that an 8-hour workplace can have one 140 dB event per shift. That's their definition of "hearing safe" which has been misapplied for decades now (in shooting and in industry, both).

And, to keep things complicated, there's not just the discharge at the muzzle, but also the supersonic crack of the bullet, for those rounds exiting at more than 1040 FPS. This is why gunshots are characterized in a range from 140-160. That 20 dB does not seem like a lot. Other than about every 3 dB doubles the "power" of the sound.

This is where the logic of "doubling up" comes from.

Anything that blocks direct contact of sound waves in the ear canal helps. Some.

This devolves into physics and picayune details rather quickly. (Like the physics of sound, and how teeny-tiny speakers work, and so on.)

What OP probably needs is a set of sound-blocking form-fit ear plugs, which can be augmented with muffs (powered or not).

 

[hso]

Suggestions

I have no problem with the setup of foam plugs under muffs so I'm confused your HL IS electronic muffs over foam plugs aren't letting you hear range commands or normal sound levels. This works fine for me.

 

[hso]

If the muffs are placed properly over your ears it should take care of your hearing protection needs.

Incorrect

Unsuppressed 9mm gunshots are well above muff protection alone.

 

[westernrover]

Right. If we're talking about the specific brand and model muffs mentioned in the OP (Howard Leight Impact Sport), the NRR is only 22 dB which is inadaquate by itself. These muffs are designed to be worn with plugs for hearing protection, and to offer the advantage of electronic amplification so the wearer can hear range commands and other instruction through the muffs and plugs. They may not work to allow the wearer to hear rustling leaves.

There are some muffs with 30 or more dB NRR, but they are very bulky and tend to interfere with cheekweld on long guns. I wear them for handguns, but often enough I double-up with foam plugs also. Even with 30 dB NRR, plugs could be necessary for some of the loudest guns like short-barrel rifles or short-barrel magnum handguns, guns with muzzle brakes, and any gun fired indoors or within reflective structures like the metal roof at the outdoor range.

 

[Telekinesis]

Take a look at the Etymotic ER20XS plugs. They are designed for musicians and have a much more flat reduction of sound across the full frequency spectrum (as opposed to foam plugs which block different frequencies at different levels).

The result is a set of plugs that sound like you just turned everything down the same amount, so you can still hear and understand spoken words easily. It’s a little difficult to describe, but it makes sense when you wear them. They’re only about $20 too, so not too expensive.

Note that used alone they do not have enough protection for shooting use, but they work great when combined with electronic hearing protection.

 

[SunnySlopes]

Incorrect

Unsuppressed 9mm gunshots are well above muff protection alone.

Thanks for the reply.

My understanding is that damage occurs at 140 dB or above. A 9mm produces 159.8 dB. My Howard Leight muffs are rated at 22 dB NRR. That would mean 137.8 dB reaches my ears. That's below "damage force" dB, isn't it?

 

[SunnySlopes]

These muffs are designed to be worn with plugs for hearing protection, and to offer the advantage of electronic amplification so the wearer can hear range commands and other instruction through the muffs and plugs. They may not work to allow the wearer to hear rustling leaves.

Yes, I just tried them with Howard Leight foam plugs, and watched (a segment of) a movie, "Ford vs Ferrari" with the sound turned full blast. Big screen tv, Sony sound bar, etc. I could hear it, but it's muffled. And it was during a race scene with engines blasting.

There are some muffs with 30 or more dB NRR

Which? Based on a recommendation above, I checked out the Walker Ultimate, but it's only got 26 dB NRR.

Edited to add: I just ordered Howard Leight Impact Pro advertised at 30 dB NRR. As alluded to earlier, they are bulky, but awkwardness is a small price to pay to hold onto what hearing I've got left.

 

[P89DCSS]

I use Mack's earplugs instead of foam plugs underneath -26dB ear muffs.

 

[westernrover]

Which? Based on a recommendation above, I checked out the Walker Ultimate, but it's only got 26 dB NRR.

Edited to add: I just ordered Howard Leight Impact Pro advertised at 30 dB NRR. As alluded to earlier, they are bulky, but awkwardness is a small price to pay to hold onto what hearing I've got left.

That's what I have.
There is also the Gold II 30 by Pro Ears | NRR 30 | American Made Hearing Protection

I believe there are others, especially on the higher-end of communications headsets, but the Impact Pro's are pretty much the one for under $100.

 

[hso]

damage occurs at 140 dB or above

Yes, instantaneous damage occurs around 140. Typical 9mm is 162 dB. Even under ideal conditions, 22 dB muffs alone still results in that 140 dB exposure.

Making things more complicated, effective noise reduction though can be as much as half the rating affected by fit & gaps primarily. Add that stacking plugs and muffs only gives another 5dB reduction (properly applied) can make it challenging.

 

[Varminterror]

I wear foam plugs under electronic muffs almost every weekend. I’ve started wearing electronic plugs for matches, but try to limit my battery cycles on them (rechargeable) and use my older muffs and foamies.

In quality ear pro, the wind filtering algorithm will filter out most white noise like the rustling of wind blown leaves, but with Howard Leights, Walkers, Peltors, and Pro Ears over foam plugs, even with notable hearing loss in both ears, I can still hear what I need to hear.

 

[BreechFace]

A big part of muff's advantages over just plugs is their protection from sound waves around the surface of the ear on the side of the head as well. It was told to me that sound waves can damage hearing even just from penetrating the surface of the head in line with the ear canal.

 

[SunnySlopes]

I wear/have worn for years the combination of electronic muffs and Surefire EarPro Sonic Defenders Plus

I looked at them, based upon your recommendation, online.

Those things actually fit underneath muffs?

 

[CapnMac]

My understanding is that damage occurs at 140 dB or above.

Pay attention to HSO on this, he's got professional qualifications.

OSHA says that the "instant damage" is at 140 dB, physiologically, that's a correct statement--if a 50th percentile value (meaning that 25% of all humans will be above 140, and 25% will be below).

Most otiologists will cite the 98th percentile value of cumulative damage beginning at 100 dB. But, that's cumulative, you need lengthy (and varying) amount of exposure. This is why OSHA allows one 140 dB event per 8 hour shift. But, 2 hours a day at 120 dB will cause permanent hearing damage. How much varies as much as humans vary.

Also, you have to be very careful using decimal values of dB, and, as HSO cogently points out, especially of sound reduction factors on packaging. Given all the variables involved, only using "whole" dB values probably better informs a person. (That, and decimal values of things on a log scale are brain benders-- the log value difference between 10 and 11 is ten, not one; so 10.5 is not 50% more than ten).

The box can state 32, but that's typically an ideal. Usually requiring perfect fits, and 100% per instructions use.