Video of me being pepper sprayed with FoxLabs

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I rate taking 5% OC to the face as one of the single worst experiences of my life. The shower the next day was pretty bad too.

I got sprayed, eyes open, while doing jumping jacks, with 2 cans about 3 feet from my face.

In order to keep "fighting" I had to hold my left eyelid open while fighting one handed until I grabbed the "bad guy." At that point I just shut both eyes and starting throwing knee strikes. A couple hours later we were drinking beer and laughing about it, but I don't ever want to do it again.

ETA: The stuff we used was made by Cap-Stun
 
Fox labs is one of the hottest. We use freeze+P and its bad enough.
 
Does anyone know how quickly pepper spray degrades? Has anyone been sprayed with "expired" pepper spray

Pepper spray will last for years. The expiration on the bottom is for the rubber sealent that can degrade and cause the can to leak. You dont want a can leaking. You also want to make sure you wash your hands GOOD before taking a whizz. :D When i was certified as an instructor we had to punch a bag and cuff someone on the ground. I could fight on it but i was completely blinded and had to go by feel. The stream seems worse to me than the fog.
 
I've been sprayed in the face with whatever the DC cops use. Not for ****s and giggles, either. The stream started as I was about 15 feet away, and continued as I ran towards the source, until I got close enough that we were using fists and clubs instead of spray. I had a bandana soaked in vinegar over my mouth and nose so it didn't get in those orifices, and my hands held upright caught some, but I took a lot to my forehead and eyes. I was engaged for a bit, and then bolted, grabbing snow to hold to my face to stop the burning. I could see clearly enough to be totally functional within a block or two of running. Then, later that day, I got sprayed from 35' with stuff that comes from something that looks like a fire-extinguisher turned sideways and shoots ~50' in a concentrated stream. Goodness. My skin burned for the rest of the day, maybe eight hours or so, and when I got back to my friend's where I was staying, I took my clothes off outside because they and their smell would have contaminated the house. I would be able to do it again, but I wouldn't like to.

-Josh
 
I have been sprayed with pepperspray over 14% strength Law Enforcement only and emergency riot sprays while working with inmates in corrections and being involved in altercations with them getting it in open eyes sprayed with fire extenguisher sized canisters delivering enough to drench you as much as if sprayed with a hose. Even more important than the "OC" content was the capsacin content which was much higher than anything civilians or even police on patrol are issued. The stuff peels skin shortly after exposure and is some serious stuff meant to gain compliance when people are stabbing and stomping or otherwise using potentialy lethal force in specific situations. They have a couple grades for various purposes. Even the skin peeling top grade did not stop determined individuals. I was able to continue fighting as were the inmates I was fighting with.

Well I can honestly tell you that while being one of the most painful things even ranging on torture if you did not have immediate care, it does not stop people. Some even had respiratory problems and trouble breathing requiring ventilators however most continued to stab and fight for several seconds up to a few minutes afterwards albeit completely blinded (requiring additional physical force). That is one thing it does no matter how much tolerance a person has, it temporarily blinds. However an unexpected side effect is it also completely numbs an individual to all additional pain because the pain receptors are all firing, so additional pain from punches or clubs, knives etc is hardly noticed. Eventualy they succumb from lack of being able to see and trouble breathing/ vomiting/non stop pain. Keep in mind this is stuff that has an effect greater than anything you can purchase. They also had a weaker version only slightly more powerful than that which is used by most police that was carried on the person by most personel which did not cause the skin to peel and was used in fights as opposed to riots involving lethal force.

The stuff by the mere fact that it disabled the persons ability to see or escape non stop pain eventualy brought the events to an end but it would not stop people in the act of stabbing or killing someone if they can continue to do so without seeing. Relying on it for self defense is foly. Because you found it very unpleasant with no adrenaline or endorphins pumping does not mean it is effective self defense. You were standing there able to focus on its effects and in fact anticipating them. In fact the pain on someone fighting with adrenaline pumping can actualy increase thier strength and power by enraging them because the body starts to dump a lot more adrenaline as all the pain receptors fire.

Now a drunk, or someone who is not a career idiot and is merely resisting arrest or trying to score on an easy target it would be very effective as a pain compliance tool. However I would not trust my life to it against determined career thugs used to pain and brawling. Use it as a blinding agent, no more. If you blind someone and change location they will be unable to find you easily. The stuff you can buy is not going to be the skin peeling variety and will be less effective than what I described. It is merely a tool to use in avoiding more dangerous force and in gaining compliance, not to rely on for your safety. An added benefit is that someone is not likely to effectively flee the scene while blinded and should be easy for police to apprehend after you call and report the incident.

Contrary to what law enforcement and other agencies that want to keep it as a tool say, it can and does cause eye injuries especialy over repeated exposure by damaging the cornea so limit your exposure.
 
Contrary to what law enforcement and other agencies that want to keep it as a tool say, it can and does cause eye injuries especialy over repeated exposure by damaging the cornea so limit your exposure.

One of my classmates had a rather serious eye problem. I don't know what the proper term was, but his pupil was so big that it was the only colored part of his eye. All the instructors and medical personnel seemed to think it would get better in a day or so, but it didn't. Several weeks later he had been to a couple eye doctors and the problem didn't look much better by graduation.

I think he is OK now, but it took over a month to heal.
 
Over the past 18 months I have run more than 5000 persons through a training lane quite similar to that was described by Damien45:evil: .
I can only recall 10-12 that were totally incapacitated. Obviously there are differences in how well they perform but the number capable of damaging you afterwards is real high. Some need some encouragement initially but, some appear to not be effected at all till maybe 3-5 minutes after exposure, some get the “ Holy Ghost” (they really do look possessed, hands reaching for the sky and staggering) within seconds. No one physical type or demeanor seems to be suggestive of the ability to resist the stuff and work through.

Zoogster describes the effects very well
Me I’ll restrict it’s use to handling folks in custody, can’t depend on it to keep me safe. Not any kind of substitute for a firearm or even a well handled baton when you really get down to it.

BTW, you do develop a tolerance to the stuff, I like the Fox stuff t on enchiladas:D


Sam
 
I sprayed myself with an ASP keydefender one afternoon and it easily took me out of the fight for at least 15 minutes. My wife now carries one on her keychain after I saw hoe effective it was.
 
My roommate tear-gassed himself making Habanero hot-sauce once. Flared up his acute-asthma condition rather nicely. He spent the rest of the evening gasping for breath and with eyes watering, after the swelling went down some. Habanero is probably the main ingredient in the really wicked pepper spray that isn't availiable to public.
 
1. Read what Byron Quick qrote again, specifically in reference to % of population and the bell curve/normal distribution.

2. Fox Labs is the worst stuff on earth. I got sprayed with it in Academy. Holy crap. I will never do that again. I had an honest to God, hospital-confirmed chemical burn to my eye. The stuff should be called Napalm ("napalm sticks to recruits!") or Devil In a Can.

3. Even so, I could fight somewhat effectively for what felt like several lifetimes, but an instructor kindly informed me that it was about 20 seconds.

4.. I've gotten sprayed directly with Fox Labs and Freeze+p, and I've gotten cross-contaminated pretty badly with Def-Tec. While the DefTec stuff didn't have the advantage of being a direct blast, I can say with confidence that Freeze+p was nowhere close to Fox.

On the Coronach Scale of OC Effectiveness, the rankings are:

1. Fox Labs.


























































(keep scrolling)














































































2. DefTec
3. Freeze+p

Mike :evil:
 
2. Fox Labs is the worst stuff on earth. I got sprayed with it in Academy. Holy crap. I will never do that again. I had an honest to God, hospital-confirmed chemical burn to my eye. The stuff should be called Napalm ("napalm sticks to recruits!") or Devil In a Can.

Actualy you can make stuff far more potent. Take the special placenta layer out of several dozens of habanero peppers and use them to extract the capsaicin. You do a simple solvent extraction with a food grade non toxic solvent like diethyl ether (used to prepare many food products commercialy and made from ethanol) and then remove the solvent and you can have pretty potent stuff. Add in some purified menthol/camphor extract to help open the pores of the target better as well as instantly effect the lungs of anything nearby and you have something far more potent than what is sold.

For a more complicated extraction technique:

http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/jafcau/1977/25/i06/f-pdf/f_jf60214a035.pdf?sessid=6006l3

But do remember to add the pore opening ingredients as that vastly increases the effectiveness.

Filter it well and fill a super soaker and you have something far far more potent than anything sold to anyone. If you purified it too well and need to reconstitute the liquid add some alcohol (organic solvent will carry the active ingredients very well and help them to penetrate). Personaly I think you should keep it non toxic so be sure to use 190 proof alcohol sold for consumption. . You have a food grade non toxic seriously potent form of pepper spray.

It may stop the individual from breathing or cause other permanent effects to the skin, so feel free to dilute it down to suitability.

I may or may not have made such an extract for the purpose of adding a drop at a time to food to make it very spicey. 1 drop will almost make unbearable the heat of a gallon of spaghetti sauce/chilli.
Of course that was/would have been as a food additive and not intended to be used as a weapon. I do not know which laws apply to production for defensive use.

This process can obviously produce almost pure capsaicin, and when you consider that most sprays have around .5% and few greater than 1% capsaicin keep in mind a product consisting of 50-90% (some will be liquid carrying agent dropping it from near 100%) capsaicin may be lethal.

This is just for theoretical argument of which spray is best :neener: This is not legal advice and you are entirely liable if you make a spray that is illegal or beyond what the human body can take and use it for defensive purposes. Something that potent will also disable you even if none gets on you because the massive content of capsaicin with the menthol/camphor will saturate the air anywhere near this liquid so heavily with fumes and capsaicin aerosol as to make you feel as if you got sprayed directly with a lesser spray.
 
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Oh, I'm sure you can make stuff worse. I'll take your word for it that the method you described will work. My comment was meant to be humorous (I think you know that, though). :)

90% pure capsaicin.

Thank you, no. :D

Mike
 
I just gotta ask:

What is the ingredient list for the more popular stuff? anything in it that would be a bad idea to put on chicken wings?

Just once I'd like to make genuine "pepper spray wings".
 
Just watched the video.

Looks like a good reason to NOT rely on pepper spray as anything more than a fairly low-level deterrent. GWQ stands there, takes it, stays vertical, and proceeds to do fine-motor-skill actions (opening wipe packets, shampooing face, etc.).

I recall Jeff Cooper saying something about another low-end weapon: "if carrying it comforts you then do so, but do not use it, for if you use it you may hit someone, and that will give them reason to cause you great harm."
 
A lot of the brands have an OC/CS mixture, and a dye. I wouldn't eat it.

Mike
 
The funny thing about all this is

I think I'm the only one who had their confidence in pepper spray greatly increased by this video, while everyone else now has less confidence in OC, and I was the one that was sprayed! After this experience, I even felt like I could use it against someone with a knife or bat, I didn't have that type of confidence before!

I emailed FoxLabs and gave them a link to that video. They said that I seemed to take it quite well, most people scream and/or bend over. It's just that I'm not much of a screamer and I'm used to this stuff. I've eaten the stuff and sprayed it inside my home, when no one would be home for a while, although getting it directly in the face is much different than eating or breathing it.

After getting sprayed, I don't think I could morally use it in situations like if someone came up and started punching me, unless he was much bigger than me or I reasonably believed that permanent damage would be done. After being sprayed, it seems like excessive pain to cause someone just for punching you.

Looks like a good reason to NOT rely on pepper spray as anything more than a fairly low-level deterrent. GWQ stands there, takes it, stays vertical, and proceeds to do fine-motor-skill actions (opening wipe packets, shampooing face, etc.).

It actually hurt a lot lot more than it looked on video. I don't express pain much, even if I'm feeling it. I actually felt like my motor skills were affected, by the pain and loss of eye sight. In the video I dropped the first wipe and one of my roommates had to pick it up and hand it to me. For the third wipe, I asked him if it's unwrapped and handed it back to him to unwrap it. When I waited for the third wrap, in the video it looks like I'm impatient and thinking "Quicker or I'll kill you" when I move my hand wanting the wipe. I missed the water and hit my head on the bucket when trying to stick my head in it. I was completely blind. If I had a drill where I had to punch or kick a punching bag and was sprayed, I could have done it if I was extremely determined or was in the military having a superior yelling at me. But I wouldn't have been able to do it if the person holding the punching bag moved to a different location than what I saw before being sprayed. When spraying in self-defense you're supposed to move diagonally away, not just stand there. It's made for escape and evade tactics. Moving away diagonally is only really useful when they're really determined, but it's a good idea to do anyway.
 
My experience with OC was *so* much more than horrible. After a blast of that Devil's own flatulence, a gay, crippled midget could've turned me into his girlfriend for at least thirty minutes.
I'd rather be chomped on in the manly area by a rabid pitbull on crack in heat than experience that hell again.

P.S.
...And it's been said that I'm tougher'n a one dollar steak.

Biker:eek:
 
I think that most of the people who say OC is 100% ineffective and not to be trusted as a defensive tool have zero first hand experience with it. Like I said in my earlier post, I have yet to see anyone it had no effect on. I know that it's happened, but I've never seen that. Nothing works on everyone. Look through the history books, you'll find plenty of examples of people who were mortally wounded by rifle fire who continued to fight for a long time.

Jeff
 
I've had some experience on both ends of the canister... and I will definitely vouch for its efficacy.
 
some info on OC

Having been trained on OC and been sprayed before, I'll share some facts about SHUs, and percentages.

All OC sprays have 2 designations or numbers. One is the Scoville Heat Units or SHUs, and a percentage.

How SHUs are determined is NOT up to the manufacturer, it is actually a scientifically based equation. If a substance is deemded hot, the SHU is the ratio of water drops to one drop of the substance that it takes to completely remove all sensation of heat.

So if a substance is rated at 1 million SHU, it will take 1 million drops of water to completely remove all sensation of heat from 1 drop of that substance.

The percentage refers ONLY to the percentage of active ingredient in the can. So that a 10% can is 10% active ingredient, and 90% propellant.

Given the choice, I'd rather get hit with 15% OC rated at 500,000 SHU (quite mild by today's LEO standards), than with 5% Oc rated at 5 million SHUs.

That should clear things up a bit.
 
Having been trained on OC and been sprayed before, I'll share some facts about SHUs, and percentages.

All OC sprays have 2 designations or numbers. One is the Scoville Heat Units or SHUs, and a percentage.

How SHUs are determined is NOT up to the manufacturer, it is actually a scientifically based equation. If a substance is deemded hot, the SHU is the ratio of water drops to one drop of the substance that it takes to completely remove all sensation of heat.

So if a substance is rated at 1 million SHU, it will take 1 million drops of water to completely remove all sensation of heat from 1 drop of that substance.

The percentage refers ONLY to the percentage of active ingredient in the can. So that a 10% can is 10% active ingredient, and 90% propellant.

Given the choice, I'd rather get hit with 15% OC rated at 500,000 SHU (quite mild by today's LEO standards), than with 5% Oc rated at 5 million SHUs.

That should clear things up a bit.

Much of this is quite incorrect, or simply misinformation for use in making valid logical decisions. The labels you mention are true, however they are entirely inaccurate and I will explain why.

OC % means almost nothing. It stand for oleoresin capsicum, which loosely means oily solution from a pepper plant. Many brands add another oleoresin like vegetable oil to increase the amount of oil. Or seperate active ingredients and then recombine them in desired strengths. 10% OC can be weaker than 5% OC. This is because the oleoresin is just the amount of pepper oil present, not the amount of capsaicin which is the pain inducing actual active ingredient. 5% OC from a very hot pepper variety or a more refined end product can be stronger than 10-15% from a more mild pepper or less refined end product. For example you would find more OC in a larger jalapeño pepper than in a small habanero pepper even though the habanero would have far more capsaicin content total. The amount of pepper oil or OC would be greater in the larger pepper.

Furthermore scoville heat units are not a scientific measurement as they are done according to taste test of judges. With modern technology there is much more effective measurements that utilize liquid chromatography and not human beings tongues to give a precise measurement. This is not to say they do not generaly give a rough estimate, but they are not a very accurate method and give quite a bit of variation for manufactures to work with (ie market as stronger according to a more favorable panel of judges).

So basicly OC% and scoville heat units (SHU) are both relatively worthless measurements. The percentage of capsaicin is really the most meaningful information you could be given, and sadly that is absent from most manufacturers.

There is however a positive side to this and that is most laws enacted were enacted by similarly misinformed people according to the information provided by manufacturers and restrict the OC% rather than the active ingredient. If you pruified the active ingredient you would be able to have next to 0% OC content and yet 100% capsaicin. This means you can often legaly create a spray as powerful or hot as you wish according to the law as long as you control the OC or basicly oil content of the spray. This is due to the misinformation you just recited as fact which is all most manufacturers provide and so has come to be taken as the effect measurement of sprays by legislators. This does not make it correct either though.
Capsaicin however is also the most expensive component of the spray as its quantity is in a finite amount in various peppers, while vegetable oil or pepper oil is cheap and in great abundance. This means manufactures are more likely to make thier spray less potent than overpowered. They also have incentive to keep some boundaries so thier business and practices are not more tightly regulated.

However to further complicate things there is something called capsaicinoids of which there is several some of which are more potent than others and of which capsaicin is only one and the most important. To further confuse people that gain a litte knowledge they list some according to capsaicinoids which is another inaccurate rating as it does not say how much of the more important vs the less important ones are contained. 5% Capsaicinoids can be less potent than 2%.
 
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I saw a study by the University of Utah that showed SHUs and % OC are less reliable than capsaicinoid content, expressed as either % Capsaicinoids or % Capsaicin and Related Capsaicinoids (this is not the same as percentage oleoresin capsaicin pepper spray). The study also found that the OC spray pattern and what the propellant surrounding it is made of affects how effective the pepper spray is.
 
Zoogster,

I'm still having trouble believing that pepper spray is ineffective after being personally sprayed in the face. I understand that you said people in prison weren't stopped by skin peeling pepper spray. I have found studies that have found people become less affected by pepper spray the more they are sprayed with it, and that repeated exposure affects sensitivity of the eye. Were those people in jail sprayed for the first time, or had they been sprayed a lot already? If you were to use pepper spray on someone who is not sprayed on a regular basis, I'm finding it hard to believe that it would ineffective a hugh portion of the time in self-defense.
 
I did not say it was inneffective I said I would not bet my personal safety on it. It is very painful and it will blind someone temporarily. Pain and being blind may stop people many times, and other times it may not. As a tool on law enforcement's belt or even your own pocket or belt in addition to other tools it is a good idea. However by itself I do not think you should feel any safer or more secure as it is not a definate decisive thing. It may protect you, it may not, it all depends on the individual. A firearm or other weapon will always provide protection to some extent, pepper spray may. It is useful as part of the force continuum. It is useful to officials as a deterent. To someone who has experienced it before it says "obey me or feel a lot of pain and then be forced to obey me" which is great for compliance as a law enforcement officer. Unlike lethal force they can and will use it readily even for minor things and those they deal with will know that and will often be detered by it.

Blinding someone and escaping is a valid tactic and the blinded person will have difficulty fleeing the scene afterwards making apprehension by authorities even easier. However someone armed can still use the weapon they have blind or not especialy if they can get ahold of you. So your situation may not have changed much after you manage to draw some spray and spray it accurately at someone posing a threat, and those motions may have triggered them to rush at you (and once they get thier hands on you being blind is not a real deciding factor in the outcome). You may still have to fight or grapple with them. You may still be in danger from whatever weapons they possess. Does that sound like something your willing to bet your safety on?

Inneffective? Not for its role in forcing pain compliance and blinding. Adequate protection provided against all threats? No.

Many individuals will suddenly feel safer and be less cautious when you provide them with a means of defense. Someone you teach martial arts, and self defense techniques may think they are so tough they stop avoiding bad situations and still become a victim. Someone you hand a bottle of pepper spray to may think that they are bit safer and not avoid potentialy bad situations to the same extent anymore.(A firearm may cause the same thing, however at least it actualy would often be decisive if they have adequate training.) So if handing your wife or daughter some pepper spray will make them go for walks in the park at night, go places alone with men they hardly know, walk around thier campus at night, be less cautious walking out to a parking lot in the dark, confront issues they would not have etc then it may put them in more danger than if they did not have it because it is providing a false safety net in thier minds. Since the outcome of using it is so random and whether it will be decisive or not is a gamble, encouraging someone to bet thier safety on it is quite folly.

A positive however is that unlike a firearm or other weapon it by itself does not pose a threat to an individual that loses possesion of it. People with a firearm unwilling to use it or unable to retain it risk death by thier own firearm. The same can be said for other weapons. Someone unable to retain thier pepper spray does not expose them to additional threats not already present in the situation.
Yet I am more inclined to bet there will alreay be other weapons present in the situation or readily at hand that this is not an important factor.

Pepperspray alone also is one of the more effective tools for someone otherwise untrained or inexperienced and incapable of adequately defending themselves in unarmed or armed combat. Yet if this decreases thier willingness to become proficient in other means of defense or changes thier behavior patterns to put them in more risk the positives are outweighed.

All tools have pros and cons, weigh them yourself and decide whether they are suitable for you.
 
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