Violating company policy WRT to firearms

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Obviously, no one here so far works for a power utility at a power plant, especially a nuclear one. Carrying at work is illegal - a felony, even the laws allowing a gun in the parking lot are suspended. If caught, you go to the federal pen and lose your gun rights forever
That would seem to be a very special case. Very few places of private employment in the country are illegal by federal law -- or even state law -- to carry a gun in. Some, but not many.

I do not read anywhere in the OP where he was asking if folks would break the law, only their agreement to the employer's terms.

Still worth the risk of acting illegally?
So this is a disingenuous question. The question did not involve any illegal act and if your work IS a prohibited location then your special case really doesn't fit the premise.
 
Obviously, no one here so far works for a power utility at a power plant, especially a nuclear one.

I actually do and for the client employees thay are allowed to have a gun in their car as long as it remains in their car
 
Obviously, no one here so far works for a power utility at a power plant, especially a nuclear one. Carrying at work is illegal - a felony, even the laws allowing a gun in the parking lot are suspended. If caught, you go to the federal pen and lose your gun rights forever

Still worth the risk of acting illegally?

Don't like the rules of the job, don't take it. Most employers now run credit checks, background checks and all sorts of investigations into your background before hiring and lying on employment apps or going against the signed employee handbook rules are grounds for dismissal and can come back to haunt you down the road
No one is talking about unlawful carry, simply carry in violation of company policy.
 
Thank you for your kind words marksman. I do appreciate that.

I don't think Trunk Monkey is trolling however, and I think this thread is one worth discussing. The thread he spoke of, the security guard thread, sparked this discussion and there are a number of points that can be brought up. Life vs. company policy. The right of a business to ban guns as a private non-governmental entity vs. your 2A rights. And yes, how honest one chooses to be when engaging in a contract.

To affirm Trunk Monkey's point, just as true capitalism is the honest exchange of the best value for the best value, work for work, service for service; one could also say that the pact between an employer and employee should be honorable and based on honesty. You give your best work and he pays you what it is honestly worth. You agree to follow his rules of the workplace, and he abides by his obligations to pay you what your work is worth, on time, and without subterfuge.

That's a good point and should be the goal of all who both employ others or are employed themselves. My issue is that the honor of the employer is already undermined when he places his own liability over my life. I choose to deal with others as they first choose to deal with me. I let others decide how our relationship will work. Treat me well, I will do the same. Treat me poorly, and I will not feel an obligation to go out of my way to be nice. You define the parameters as you will. An employer who states, in writing no less "I value myself and my company more than your life" is essentially tell me to value myself more than them. They set the parameters. They place themselves first, so I place myself first.
 
As some posters have pointed out, we all lie at some point and that includes me so I apologize for that question.

To rephrase the question, my personal morals will not permit me to carry a firearm at work after (in my mind) making a promise not to.

Having said that, I’d like to hear from people who hold a different point of view and I’d like to hear them explain their rationale and what makes it OK for them.
 
Yep.
The huge overwhelming percentage of company policies are a misguided attempt to reduce the company's liability. I feel no moral compunction ignoring such a policy when it interferes with my ability to defend myself in whatever manner/method I choose. I find such policies immoral.

My life/well-being is far more important than the minute possibility of increased insurance premiums.

As with any company policy, I fully understand the consequences of violation.
I heard this argument earlier. I totally disagree. It is not telling the entire story. It may very well help insurance and decrease liability of companies, but it is also common knowledge, at least in the retail business world, that employees are safer as a whole when they submit to a robbers demands and allow them to take whatever they are after. That is why most common businesses most of you shop in ie Radio Shack, Best Buy, The Limited, etc. do not allow firearms. They cannot possibly ensure that their employees have the proper training really needed in that kind of situation. As we all know the fact that they can legally carry does not mean they will show good judgement in such a terrible event. Is it perfect. Of course not. But in the aggregate it is more effective. Thats also why the insurance and liability is cheaper. Cause it works better.

As for other environments, I don't really get it either. A factory, some kind of business office, doctors office, money movers, etc. It seems to me to be backwards thinking in that kind of environment.
 
that employees are safer as a whole when they submit to a robbers demands and allow them to take whatever they are after.

That has been discussed to great length, and is IMO, utter nonsense. Furthermore, it really has nothing to do with the premise of this thread. If you wish to discuss whether submitting to a criminal is a good way to save your own life, I would suggest you make a new thread about just that.

No seriously and not as an insult. That's a topic that will get a lot of attention and contribution. And a new thread about just that would not detract from the issue of this thread.
 
As some posters have pointed out, we all lie at some point and that includes me so I apologize for that question.

To rephrase the question, my personal morals will not permit me to carry a firearm at work after (in my mind) making a promise not to.

Having said that, I’d like to hear from people who hold a different point of view and I’d like to hear them explain their rationale and what makes it OK for them.
Go back and read the thread.
 
Here's my honest take on it. I've had the fortune of working for mostly small companies in my life, the two exceptions being the US Army and Wal-Mart. Working for a small company gives me a certain amount of appreciation for the owner of the business. If I am interacting with the owner of the business every day it becomes very difficult to ignore his wishes. It also gives him more of a chance to explain why he has enacted certain policies. It also makes him more keenly aware of my personality and my thought processes. He can better judge my morals, maturity and problem solving abilities. He is then better prepared to make a decision on whether or not I am allowed to carry at work. If he says I can not carry and I have made a concious decision to continue working for him, then I have decided to play by his rules and therefor not carry while on the clock.

What I take issue with is a large company, Wal-Mart as an example, that can not possibly get to know all of its employees and therefor assumes a position of planning for the worst. A large corporation basically assumes that it's employees can not function outside of its system and therefor must be lorded over with greater degrees of restrictions. It's a policy of covering their own butts and it makes sense in a business model, but itmakes no sense to me to seek employment with such an establishment.

That said, for most people it is easier to disregard the will of a large, impersonal employer than a small business owner that we must face every day.
 
That has been discussed to great length, and is IMO, utter nonsense. Furthermore, it really has nothing to do with the premise of this thread. If you wish to discuss whether submitting to a criminal is a good way to save your own life, I would suggest you make a new thread about just that.

- No seriously and not as an insult. That's a topic that will get a lot of attention and contribution. And a new thread about just that would not detract from the issue of this thread.


Sorry. Had to delete what I posted. Its been a long day and my frustration is coming out.


Your right. Shouldnt derail the thread.
 
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That would seem to be a very special case. Very few places of private employment in the country are illegal by federal law -- or even state law -- to carry a gun in. Some, but not many.

It also covers airports, shipyards and ports, basically anywhere that HS claims as their domain, then there are all of the federal employment areas

That's a LOT of folks who have to obey the no gun at work rule
 
How about 'The huge overwhelming percentage of company policies are the result of an overly optimistic expectation in liability reduction."

I'll go along with that. You can sue a corporation for having a paved parking lot. Doesn't mean you'll win. If there's a workplace shooting, they'll get sued, published prohibition or not. The plaintiff's attorney will assemble (for the summary judgement hearing) a roster of corporate policies at that specific workplace that he will argue weren't enforced therefore implying a cavalier attitude about "corporate policies", and then point to the shooting as a defacto massive failure of enforcement. The corporation will then make a business decision about putting their fate in the hands of a jury over a fatality (several million $ exposure), and then the settlement negotiation begins. That's the US system, and the lawyers love it.
 
It also covers airports, shipyards and ports, basically anywhere that HS claims as their domain, then there are all of the federal employment areas

That's a LOT of folks who have to obey the no gun at work rule

No, that's a whole lot of people that choose to comply with Federal/State laws.


Please stop trying to derail the thread by introducing legality into a discussion of company policy.


ETA: Airports/Seaports - Federal law only covers the 'secure' portions.
 
It is obvious that some will agree that taking an employer's money obligates you to follow the employer's rules while on the clock while others will say that no employer's requirement to disarm is to be followed. The third perspective is that following the employer's requirement to disarm on the clock will be followed, but firearms will be secured in the employee's personal vehicle since the employer can't be allowed to dictate the safety measures taken to and from work.

That's pretty much the 3 positions, full compliance, partial compliance, and no compliance with an employer disarming an employee.

There is the unique situation in which the employer operates a secure facility in which crossing the property line puts you within a security perimeter with armed security. That makes the discussion moot as there is no practical option to ignore the employer's requirement. If they're government facilities it is illegal to violate the rule.
 
Except in unusual circumstances I don't see an Employee Handbook to be a contract. It's a set of rules that HR expects their employees to abide by, and it's set up to establish a set of objective rather than subjective guidelines. Setting the cruise control at 5MPH over the limit in the company car is a worse violation in my opinion, at least that action actually violates a law. Might seem like splitting hairs (and in the interest of full disclosure I work in a facility that's guarded with metal detectors so carrying on the premises isn't even a question) but IMHO there is a distinction between breaking a negotiated contract and occasionally failing to follow a rule in the employee handbook.
 
Except in unusual circumstances I don't see an Employee Handbook to be a contract. It's a set of rules that HR expects their employees to abide by, and it's set up to establish a set of objective rather than subjective guidelines. Setting the cruise control at 5MPH over the limit in the company car is a worse violation in my opinion, at least that action actually violates a law. Might seem like splitting hairs (and in the interest of full disclosure I work in a facility that's guarded with metal detectors so carrying on the premises isn't even a question) but IMHO there is a distinction between breaking a negotiated contract and occasionally failing to follow a rule in the employee handbook.
The fact that it is not a contract does not allow you to violate the rules no matter what they are. If the have a no handgun policy and catch you, they will fire you. And in the vast majority of circumstances you would have little or no recourse. So having said that I am not sure why it would be necessary to distinguish a company policy as a contract or guideline. It wouldn't matter.
 
I am really lucky then, we have "show and tell" every so often at work and the players will drool over the others newest purchase and get to fondle it for a bit before going back to work.:D Also I am known by my good friends that it is understood that I am usually "live".:cool: I am a man of my word and will keep it.
 
If the have a no handgun policy and catch you, they will fire you.

And some of us are OK with that. It's a matter of asking yourself what the worst case scenario is, and if you're ok with that. Get caught with a gun and the worst case is getting fired, and possible legal ramifications. Get caught by a criminal without a gun and the worse case is death. I choose the first option.
 
And some of us are OK with that. It's a matter of asking yourself what the worst case scenario is, and if you're ok with that. Get caught with a gun and the worst case is getting fired, and possible legal ramifications. Get caught by a criminal without a gun and the worse case is death. I choose the first option.
Now your doing it to me Ragnar. That wasn't the point or the context of my post. It was referring to the other posters comments about contract obligations.

Never mind. I need to get off this board.
 
I work for a small business. It is against company policy for any employee to carry a concealed weapon in company vehicles on company time. I have worked there for a long time, and have no trouble talking directly to the owner. He said it was a liability issue.

I am responsible for our largest (and most lucrative) clients. All of them have a no weapons on company property policy.

It is in my best interest to comply with the company policy.
 
I'm a mechanic. Carrying at work is forbidden, but even if it were not, I still wouldn't do it. I'm always climbing on top of and into machinery and have enough stuff getting caught or snagged or dropped. Not really the ideal place for a pistol. Add to that, the building is secure (although anyone with a crowbar and a few minutes could gain entry). In the building on the job, I don't and won't carry. In my car in the parking lot for the drive home at night, you betcha. If I happen to run afoul of someone between the door of the building and the door of my car, that's why I have a knife in my pocket and a kubotan on my keys, as well as the option of turning around and going back inside.
 
"No Firearms or Weapons"

I work for a middle-sized company (100+) with a written policy of "No Firearms or Weapons" on the premises.

It's a deliberately ambiguous wording, allowing the management to declare, ad hoc, that [whatever] is a weapon.

It's a building full of geeks.

The guy whose desk is beside mine carries a Cold Steel folding knife that's bigger than any folder I own. Other guys carry various things clipped to their pockets (I've seen several different knives and tools). I myself carry a full-sized folder, a Leatherman Wave, and at least one other 3-inch knife on a daily basis. No one even blinks. I make salad with my "weapon," and other guys open boxes and envelopes with theirs. We have a 10-inch carving knife in a drawer in one of the kitchens on my floor, and a very pointy 4.5 inch tomato/bagel knife.

Evidently the "or weapons" phrasing doesn't include pocket knives -- even large ones -- in common application, neither does it include sizable kitchen knives.

I would imagine, however, if some sort of violent event were to happen and someone's knife became a significant component of that event, the "or weapons" clause certainly gives the company the justification for a firing.


There is always the question of "would I bring a gun into the building," and the answer would be "not usually."

If it became clear that there was a plausible threat to life & limb and that my personal security required my personal intervention, I might take measures to balance the threat.

Companies do what they can to employ policies to standardize practices and provide a foundation for common understanding, generally oriented toward the benefit of the group considered as a whole, and only incidentally its individual members. Policy establishes standards and guidelines, but frankly cannot account for every kind of thing that can happen, and this is where one's individual responsibility and judgment comes into play. A responsible employee will take any necessary measures to see to it that company assets -- and that includes other employees -- are not subjected to undue risk. There are circumstances where a responsible employee would arm himself by way of mitigating a risk of specific character.

I have worked in places where it was explicitly stated in policy that whenever it was found that policy, as written, would act to the detriment of production or personnel, policy can and must be set aside until it can be remedied.

Policy is not awareness, policy is not thought, policy is not judgment. Those are qualities only people possess.

And so, come the day that being armed is more prudent than "following the rules," that's the day I go armed. And should that result in a rigid and poorly calibrated response from management, then so be it.


A friend of mine, riding in a cab in Italy, was surprised that the cabbie would slow down somewhat, but not stop, for some red lights. He noticed that the practice didn't seem to be limited to the vehicle he was in. When he asked about it, the cabbie advised him, "the light, she cannot see; for this we have eyes."

And so it is in life.

For this we have eyes.

 
There is a 'none of your beeswax' line between employers and employees. They might try to tell you you are or are not allowed to do any number of things that are not within their scope of interest or influence. If a company had a policy that said I couldn't use facebook at home because they disagreed with them ethically, I would flat ignore them. Regardless of what policy I agreed to.

There was a time when I agreed that an employee had no say in whether or not they should be allowed to keep guns in their cars at work. Private property, not your call, deal with it. But what I had explained to me was, the influence isn't limited to the parking lot. If your employer tells you that you can't have a gun on-property, they are also telling you that you can't carry to and from work, and that THEY get to decide that when you are getting gas on your way home from a swing shift, you should just ignore any risk, because you can't do anything about it anyway.

Any company big enough to have talked to a lawyer will have a boilerplate policy forbidding weapons on premises. They see no upside. I was surprised when Utah's parking lot law passed, but I still don't see any significant change to the status quo here.
 
Just do whatever allows you to sleep at night...myself, I don't have a guilty conscience and would carry provided the pistol did not interfere with me doing my job...thats the ONLY promise I make to an employer...to do my job...an honest days work for an honest days pay.

I'm a truck driver...the company I drive for does not have a policy on guns. Its a pretty big company...I'm sure many of you pass their trucks every day on the highway, but rest assured...they don't hire just anybody like many companies...their hiring practices are EXTREMELY strict.

Some of the places my job takes me DO have policies, when I'm at these places I will respect their wishes by leaving the gun in the truck...thats the best deal they are gonna get from me.

Laws...yeah those can be a pain...I also frequent military bases and we all know those are "no guns allowed". For these I have to get creative but I do not take the gun in the gate. A few "depots" (not bases) will check the gun at the gate...I wish they were all like that.
 
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As with everything in life we have choices. If you work for a company that does NOT allow carrying a weapon of any kind, including "non-lethal", and YOU decide to flex your 2A rights, expect to be fired if you're caught! :what: It's that simple! Weather or not the company cares about your welfare or not is NOT the issue! The issue is, THEIR company, THEIR rules, THEIR liability!

Florida, where I live, is a "Right to Work" state. You can be fired for just about anything. In Florida, good jobs are hard to find so sometimes you just have to decide which is more important...working or risking losing your job! If you don't like the policy, don't work for them!

And no, I don't carry on the job (Security Guard) even though I have ALL of the required licences to do so. My post is not an armed post and I honor my company's NO CARRY policy.
 
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