WA state - Gun Show Loophole SB 5197 - Passed Committee - Call Your Senator NOW.

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pax

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SB 5197, the very invasive and BAD "Gun Show Loophole" Bill, is out of committee. Call your Senator today.

(Thanks to Enkindler for posting the update on the older thread)

From http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/cg...id=2002120029&slug=webgunloop27&date=20070227

By Elliott Wilson
Seattle Times staff reporter

OLYMPIA -- Controversial legislation that tightens regulations on
firearm sales at gun shows passed out of a state Senate committee
today.

Senate Bill 5197 would expand background check requirements to
include guns sold at shows by unlicensed gun sellers. Currently,
only licensed dealers have to screen customers for felonies, age
requirements and mental illness.

The lack of regulations on unlicensed dealers is known as the gun-
show loophole. Gun rights advocates say the background checks are
unnecessary because only a tiny number of guns used by criminals
have been traced back to purchases made at gun shows.

Natalie Reber, executive director of Washington CeaseFire, which
lobbied for the bill, said the 4-2 passage in the Senate Labor,
Commerce, Research and Development Committee marks a major victory
for the legislation.

The bill has been introduced in previous years but never made it out
of committee. The bill still faces some hurdles.

House Speaker Frank Chopp said the bill falls far short of votes
needed in the House, and Senate Majority Leader Lisa Brown
questioned whether it could pass the Senate.

"We are trying to keep it one step at a time," Reber said. "The next
step is the Rules Committee."

We need EVERY phone call possible.

Easy work: TOLL FREE LEGISLATIVE HOTLINE 1-800-562-6000

Be polite, be firm, request a NO vote on this.

(Old thread with more Bill details: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=251951)

pax
 
Trust the same Seattle Times reporter

who gets the committee vote wrong (it was 5-3, not 4-3, on a party-line vote) to also give a couple of free sound bites to the bills proponents, while printing from our side. Shame on you, Ellie.

This is just one battle of many. The bill may or may not come out of Rules and make it to the Senate floor, where a major battle will take place. Several rural and suburban Dems don't want the bill, or don't want to take a public vote on it.

As noted earlier, if you're a Washington resident, this is the time to call your senator -- again -- and remind him/her that that there is no such thing as a "gun show loophole," that no evidence was offered that criminals obtain their guns at gun shows (evidence of the opposite was provided), and that classified ads in the newspapers actually put more guns in criminals' hand than do gun shows.

Joe Waldron
Pres, WAC
Chmn, GOAL
Exec Dir, CCRKBA
 
Joe:

Please educate me on the legislative process.

Do all bills get sent to the rules committee once they have been passed out of another committee?

What role does the rules committee perform?

What actions can the rules committee take with this bill?

Does the rules committee have sole responsibility for fulfilling their functions? Or, do they do what non-members of the committee tell them to do?
 
Rules is the holding pattern for bills that have passed out of their primary policy committee or from Ways & Means/Apropriations. It has to be voted out of Rules to come to the Senate (or House) floor. Rules is a two step process. First a bill has to be moved forward to the "green sheet," then moved once again to the list of bills for a floor vote.

Several bills usually die in Rules because the policy committees forward more bills than the full Senate (or House) can act on.

Rules committee members will usually pay attention to their constituents. Rules is a screening process. They also pay attention to what leadership wants to push. But a hundred or more bills will die on March 15th (chamber cut-off day) because they got stalled in Rules.

Senate Rules has 13 Dems and 6 Republicans, reflecting the party proportions in the Senate. Only one Dem (the LtGov -- who is President of the Senate) is fairly conservative. Most of the rest are Seattle/Tacoma liberals.

JW
 
I've been able to find one good piece of statistical evidence for an argument against the gun show law: John Scalia's paper "Federal Firearms Offenders, 1992-1998" (published by Bureau of Justice Statistics) says that only 1.7% of the crime guns in the study came from gun shows. Does anyone have other bits of statistical ammo? There should be something more current out there.
 
I've been able to find one good piece of statistical evidence for an argument against the gun show law: John Scalia's paper "Federal Firearms Offenders, 1992-1998" (published by Bureau of Justice Statistics) says that only 1.7% of the crime guns in the study came from gun shows. Does anyone have other bits of statistical ammo? There should be something more current out there.

The anti's know this as they have been told this a million times, so we know that this argument doesn't work. They still votes for these bills anyway. I would like to suggest that we adjust our tactics accordingly.

How about trying something different for a change, such as asking "Senator X, why do you want to make me responsible for enforcing federal gun laws as a private citizen? Are you going to give me a gun, a badge, and a paycheck to go along with my newly assigned responsibilities"?

When you ask them this question you have stopped them dead in their tracks and the only thing they can give you is a deer-in-the headlights look.
 
Depending on sources, its like 1.7-2% of all illegal arms are obtained from gun shows.

Similarly...its something between 1-2% of all illegal arms consist of assault weapons (the media definition).

Both are the statistically most insignifigant slice of the overall pie. The margin of errors in tallying these statistics is probably 1-2% in itself. Both have proven 100% inconclusive in states that already have these laws, and the federal AWB made absolutely no credible difference. Even the Clinton administration's study on the effects showed inconclusive results on the federal AWB

Yet they keep pushing these issues. I honestly don't get it. It's like my trying to ban automobiles costing over $100,000 because they consist of 1-2% of all drunk driving accidents.
 
Yet they keep pushing these issues. I honestly don't get it.

It's clear to me why they push it. Here's their thinking:

  1. Create criminal liability on the part of the gun show organizers.
  2. Gun show organizers decide to not have gun shows.
  3. No gun shows = no gun owners getting together to talk about stuff.
  4. Now that a precedent has been establish for making it impossible for private citizens to engage in private transactions at gun shows, more "loopholes" are discovered by the antis.
  5. All "loopholes" are closed and no more private sales can take place.

Make sense now?
 
According to Mr. Completely, the bill is dead as a door knob.

As an update to the previous post regarding the SB5197, the gun show bill, I have some good news!

I spoke this morning with Senator Jim Clements and his assessment is that the bill is as dead as "A goose twelve yards away in the middle of my decoys!" as he colorfully explained. It will never come out of the rules committee. Even with a 5 to 3 Democratic majority on the original committee hearing the proposed bill, it took some serious arm-twisting to get it passed out of that committee.

Apparently there are too many rural Democrats in opposition, and the folks pushing for this bill now realise it doesn't have enough support to pass without burning a whole lot of bridges and creating a lot of anomosity by trying to force it through.
 
Sorry --

If you want to buy a firearm, you need to submit to a background check.

No charge for a background check in WA. Takes about five minutes most days.

I've talked to too many dealers, BATF agents and Sheriffs who know that the felons go to gun shows to buy handguns from private parties. We don't need felons buying firearms.
 
Sorry --

If you want to buy a firearm, you need to submit to a background check.

No charge for a background check in WA. Takes about five minutes most days.

I've talked to too many dealers, BATF agents and Sheriffs who know that the felons go to gun shows to buy handguns from private parties. We don't need felons buying firearms.

The first Google search result for, "source of guns used in crime," (link) is a US Department of Justice web page saying that for guns used in crimes, the source of the firearm was, "a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%."

I can respect your opinion on gun control, but trying to spread blatant lies about firearms and criminal behavior tarnishes the image and spirit of debate as well as the reputation of gun control advocates everywhere. By all means please continue.
 
I've talked to too many dealers, BATF agents and Sheriffs who know that the felons go to gun shows to buy handguns from private parties. We don't need felons buying firearms.

I wish that were believable. The majority of gun shows in WA are hosted by WAC. I go to WAC shows in Monroe and Puyallup on occasion. 80% of the people there have membership badges. 20% don't and they're lookie-loos until they want to purchase a firearm.

To purchase a firearm, you need a WAC membership. To get a WAC membership, you submit to a background check. Therefore to purchase a firearm at the WAC gunshows, you cannot be a criminal.

Various studies by the DOE and NIJ on a national level show that guns used by criminals, purchased through gunshows, consist of 1.7-2%. Furthermore, whatever gun shows exist in WA that don't require memberships and background checks are a tiny minority. The same through processes were used by people to go after assault weapons, which consisted of 1-2% of statistical pie concerning crimes committed with firearms.
 
You don't know Jack

Sorry, Jack, but there is no evidence that gun shows are a significant source of criminals' guns. In the case of WAC shows, there is NO evidence that criminals can obtain guns at these shows.

And a more current Bureau of Justice Statistics study puts the gun show leakage figure at 0.7", NOT 1.7% (that's an older study).

It puts gun shops at 8.3% and pawn shops at 3.8%, BOTH of which conduct background checks.

As for the "no charge for a background check in WA," Jack, try ordering a gun through gun broker or buying through a private individual at a gun show and ask an FFL to process the sale (with b/g check). The standard fee for such processing runs anywhere from $20 to $35, depending on the dealer.

Assuming you're not a troll (and I'm not sure that's a valid assumption), maybe you should lurk for a while and learn a few things.

As a matter of fact, we have many active and retired police officers that are table holders at WAC gun shows. Two WAC board members are current, active police officers. And WAC pays to have uniformed police officers to patrol our gun shows.

If WAC gun shows were a source of criminals' guns, that would have been brought out in testimony by Chief Kerlikowske at the public hearing on Fenruary 8th. He cited no examples because there are none. With his stolen pistol, Kerlikowske has put more guns in the hands of criminals than WAC gun shows.

Joe Waldron
President, WAC
 
And then there's the FBI study

released last summer that covers a five year period of assaults on police officers. NONE of the gun in the study came froma gun show, an odd figure if the prevalence of gun show "crime guns" is as common as you would have us believe.

Hey, Jack, maybe you're a gun shop operator who doesn't like competition? Wouldn't be the first time gun shop owners have supported anti-gun show legislation. Even the proprietor of Central Guns in Seattle, according to his comment in the Seattle Times last month.

You know who I am, Jack. I sign my name and organization affiliation. Just who are you?

Joe Waldron
President, WAC
Exec Dir, CCRKBA
Chairman, GOAL
Director, WSR&PA
Leg. chair, WCW/Kenmore Ranges
 
I checked the posting on Mr. Completely's web site regarding the gun show "loophole" bill http://mrcompletely.blogspot.com/2007_03_01_archive.html#6912874582251664431 with the analysis by Senator Clements.

Regardless of Senator Clements' assessment, you owe it to yourself to keep reminding Senator Lisa Brown and your own legislator on a regular basis that you want this bill terminated.

* Don't count your chickens before they are hatched.
* Never let "them" forget that you have noticed them trying to screw you over.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/DistrictFinder/Default.aspx
 
Okay, so there were five Democrats that voted for this bill. Even if this bill dies in rules committee, at least one of the five needs to be punished in the next election to serve as an example to the remaining four.

Some general ideas for inflicting punishment on bad politicians are described at http://www.washingtonceasefire.com/content/view/43/37/

Driving one of these five out of office is going to take a lot of work, but if someone doesn't do it they are going to keep doing this over and over again until they learn to associate bad gun bills with personal pain.
 
Update

With Friday's accidental shooting of a three year old in Rochester, the Tacoma nightclub shooting Friday night, and Saturday's article in the P-I whining about the difficulty of gun traces from private sales and at gun shows, there is greater interest in the Senate Democrat caucus to "do something."

See the article at http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/305987_guns03.html

I received two calls Saturday about meeting with Democrat Senators next week.

The fact that none of the above incidents had nothing to do with gun shows is irrelevant. They focus attention on the gun issue, and that's all that it takes.
 
Joe:

Why would Democrats want to meet with you? Do they somehow think that you are going to give them "permission" go screw over gun owners? Why would they even think that they need "permission"?

The gang of five have already determined that they are going to run rough-shod over gun owners by passing a law that turns private citizens into unwilling enforcers of federal gun laws.

http://www.leg.wa.gov/Senate/kohl-welles
http://www.leg.wa.gov/Senate/keiser
http://www.leg.wa.gov/Senate/franklin
http://www.leg.wa.gov/Senate/murray
http://www.leg.wa.gov/Senate/prentice
 
Why would Dems want to talk with us? Because that's what lobbyists do. They talk with legislators, sometimes even educate them. A lobbyist's function is as much education (subject matter experts) as anything else.

The "gang of five" is pretty much out of the picture now, except as floor votes.

FYI, a "compromise offer" was made to us, which we turned down. The substitute they passed in committee was part of that compromise, redefining banquets out of the gun show definition, an attempt to buy off the SCI/DU/FoNRA/RMEF crowd. They also offered to drop the criminal liability issue. We still didn't buy it.

This is my fourteenth session lobbying. I haven't voluntarily given up anything yet. I'm not about to start now.
 
Joe, I certainly hope you didn't think I was implying that you ever would "give" something away to the antis. I am simply puzzled that they would presume to think that if they wined and dined you, or whatever the heck is that they do, that they think a gun rights leader would abandon their principles.

The gang of five may be out of your picture right now, but I've got them in my sights. Ignoring what they have done is not an option. One of them has to be fired as an example to the rest. According to Washington Ceasefire it takes about seven creative people to take down a congressman. I figure it ought to take fewer than that to knock out a state senator. Considering that some of these senators are also trying to institute a state income tax, multiple groups of people could band together and take out someone like Kohl-Welles and do the entire state a big favor.
 
The PI is pushing it even more, we need some good letter writers.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/306099_guncontrol05.html

Gun show check bill moves along
Critics say there's no proof measure would reduce crime

By MELISSA SANTOS
P-I REPORTER

OLYMPIA -- Legislators are pushing forward with efforts to close the gun show loophole, but critics still say there's no loophole to close.

A bill that would require all sellers at gun shows to conduct background checks passed out of committee Tuesday, but Senate Majority Leader Lisa Brown, D-Spokane, said it's uncertain whether it will reach the Senate floor.

Gun control proponents say Washington law allows people to buy firearms at gun shows without going through a federally required background check, an oversight that could allow criminals to purchase guns.

But opponents argue that gun show sales don't contribute to gun violence, and the proposed bill would only inconvenience law-abiding citizens who want to exercise their Second Amendment rights.

Sen. Jim Clements, R-Selah, said targeting gun show sales is a knee-jerk reaction to last year's mass shootings on Capitol Hill and at the Jewish Federation Building in Seattle, and would be a symbolic move rather than a practical one.

Clements, who voted against Senate Bill 5197 in committee, said it's unclear how many guns used in crimes in Washington are purchased by criminals at gun shows.

"Rather than going into the world of supposition, I'm going to propose some legislation that goes on the facts," Clements said. "I would just as soon have some clarity to all this that allows people to look at these issues singularly and debate them."

In Oregon, where voters approved an initiative to close the gun show loophole in 2000, the effect of the measure is less than clear. Lawmakers who supported it say it has made a huge difference, but Portland police are unsure the city's lower crime rates mean fewer criminals are getting their hands on guns.

Before Oregon implemented its gun show loophole measure, which 62 percent of voters approved, Portland police spent three years tracing guns used in gang violence. Of those that could be traced, they found that 27 percent of them came from gun shows.

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"Gun shows were always two things: a fun thing for a family to do on a Saturday morning, and a place for criminals to get guns," said Sen. Ginny Burdick, D-Portland, who is chairwoman of Oregon's Senate Judiciary Committee. "Now it's only one of those things."

Portland police spokesman Brian Schmautz said the city has seen reduced crime since the measure passed, but its criminals don't seem to have any more difficulty getting guns than before.

"Our crime numbers are down, but gang cops are not all of a sudden saying that there are fewer guns in the gang community," he said.

Sen. Janéa Holmquist, R-Moses Lake, said the situation is different in Washington.

All gun shows in the greater Seattle area are put on by Washington Arms Collectors, a members-only organization that lets only those who have gone through a background check buy or sell firearms there. Elsewhere in the state, any licensed dealer who sells at a gun show is also required to conduct background checks on potential buyers, but private parties who wish to sell there are not.

For private parties, the fees associated with conducting background checks would cut into their bottom line and could be passed on to customers in the form of higher prices, Holmquist said. She cited a federal study from 2002 that found that less than 1 percent of guns used in violent crimes came from gun shows.

"The term 'gun show loophole' is a fabrication," Holmquist said. "It's clear the laws that apply elsewhere in the state also apply at gun shows. This bill is just going to impose dealer restrictions on private citizens who aren't dealers.

"It's law-abiding folks who frequent gun shows, not criminals."

In Seattle, where aggravated assaults with guns rose 19 percent last year, Mayor Greg Nickels and police Chief Gil Kerlikowske are both strong supporters of the bill.

Eighteen other states have enacted legislation to require background checks on all purchasers at gun shows.

Kerlikowske said that because sales at gun shows by non-dealers aren't carefully documented, the absence of statistical evidence that they supply shooters in Washington is a moot point.

"If there is no record of the sale and no background check, then there is little evidence of the number of sales that were denied or of the number of crime guns that come from gun shows," he said.

"This legislation will fix that."

Even if the bill makes it to the Senate floor and passes, House Speaker Frank Chopp, D-Seattle, said last month that it doesn't have enough support to pass the House.

He said gun control issues are divisive even among Democrats, who have a large majority in both houses this year.

But Burdick said politicians struggle with gun control measures more than the public. A telephone survey conducted in November found that 81 percent of Washington voters supported criminal checks on all gun show buyers, and that rural voters were as likely to support such measures as city dwellers.

"Most gun owners are reasonable people, and they favor reasonable laws," Burdick said. "If you agree with background checks in order to prevent criminals from getting guns, and then you go to a gun show and see these really high-caliber weapons being sold to people, no questions asked -- for most people, it's a no-brainer."

Sponsor Sen. Rodney Tom, D-Medina, said the bill's only intention is to make sure standard background checks -- which prevented sales of 2,400 firearms to convicted felons and people with mental illness in Washington last year -- happen with every sale.

"This is not an expansion of any gun restrictions," he said.

Sen. Ed Murray, D-Seattle, said anything the Legislature can do to control who gets their hands on firearms in Washington is worth pursuing.

"It's one of the measures people in my district have felt they needed in a real way," Murray said. "This is one small step toward telling people who lost their loved ones on Capitol Hill that we are finally doing something."
P-I reporter Melissa Santos can be reached at 360-943-8311 or [email protected].
 
Sorry --

If you want to buy a firearm, you need to submit to a background check.

No charge for a background check in WA. Takes about five minutes most days.

I've talked to too many dealers, BATF agents and Sheriffs who know that the felons go to gun shows to buy handguns from private parties. We don't need felons buying firearms.

Can you say TROLL.
I suspect a Brady Bunch member who will lie to prove his point.
AC
 
This is my fourteenth session lobbying. I haven't voluntarily given up anything yet. I'm not about to start now.

Hang in there, Joe. Keep up the good fight, we all appreciate your efforts very much.

Wayne
 
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