Wanye is out of his mind

[Warp]

Parents bear the primary responsibility for the safety of their children. No matter how much I care about someone else's children--and I do care--as long as I'm not the parent of those children or officially in charge of them on a temporary basis (as a teacher or babysitter, and even then there are parental guidances that I still must follow), I'm not in a position to make decisions regarding their care. Nor is the state or community. Nor is the federal government. Except in cases where parents are demonstrably a danger to their children, we just need to back away and allow them to--no, compel them to--parent those children.

And yet the laws don't allow you to protect them while they are at school.

 

[beatledog7]

^^Exactly, which is why we need to force government out of the parenting (and the K-12 education) role.

 

[sawdeanz]

At first when I read about the speech I was a little dissapointed, but then I read a comment saying how this speech shows that the only thing the nra cares about is protecting our ability to carry guns. This comment was meant to be negative but I thought, exactly! This is what the nra does and this speech was a good strategy towards this end. Its not the nra's responsibility to solve this nations violence problems, and we shouldn't expect it to, just like the liberals don't actually care about the kids, they juust care about taking guns away. No I don't agree with banning violent video games but I don't see any evidence that the nra actually wants to do that either.

 

[Warp]

Exactly, which is why we need to force government out of the parenting role.

So no more public schools? No more laws requiring school/education? No more laws concerning schools or school property or events in any way?

 

[gossamer]

I think you need to do your own research.

It has been shown he had a mental illness. I never read or heard it was caused by playing violent video games in news reports. However it was present in him.

I've read and heard from the news that he did indeed play violent video games for hours but the news has been less than accurate from the very biginning on this tragedy.

Since you know someone with the same illness, are you stating that this illness did not contribute to his attack or that having this illness doesn't guarantee he will do something tragic. No one is blaming the illness but are speculating as to the causes. I don't believe that we'll ever know the real causes but they are reporting what they do know and comparing it to past incidents to see if there is any similarities in the motives.

So, he did have a mental illness.
He did play violent video games (reported)
He did murder innocent people.
Are they related to (similar history) or just coincidence to previous recent mass killings?

First, mental health professionals would tell you that Aspergers was removed from the DSM V as a mental health disorder. So there is ample, legitimate, objective, professional consensus that this man's condition was not a mental health disorder.

Second, No evidence exists to link autism and premeditated violence. Suggesting otherwise is wrong and harmful to the more than 1.5 million individuals living with autism in the United States. (Gunasekaran, S., & Chaplin, E. (2012). Autism spectrum disorders and offending. Advances in Mental Health and Intellectual Disabilities, 6, 308-313.)

I've done considerable of my own research, thanks for the suggestion.

Did you know it's also been reported that guns were involved? So maybe we should believe guns were a causal factor too?

It is irresponsible and borders on dishonest to say that Aspergers contributed to his attack. There is no evidence of that and staggering statistics to the contrary.

The National Threat Assesment Center (a division of the Secret Service) conducted a decades long study and found that:

An alleged potential assailant may not be mentally disordered. If the potential perpetrator does suffer from a mental disorder, the relationship of the disorder to potential targeted violence may be unknown. And reliance on clinical techniques, such as interviews and psychological tests - common features in clinical assessments - provides only partial, inaccurate, irrelevant information to the task of predicting an act of violence

Instead of looking at demographic and psychological characteristics, the approach should focus on a subject's thinking and behaviors as a means to assess his/her progress on a pathway to violent action. The question in a threat assessment is not "What is the subjects mental health capacity'' but "Has the subject engaged in recent behavior that suggests that he/she is moving on a path toward violence directed toward a particular target(s)?''.
-- R. Borum et al. Behav. Sci. Law 17: 323-337

More importantly, the people who study this for a living over decades would tell you that hundreds of thousands of people in this country have symptoms along the Autism spectrum resembling Aspergers and play video games and do not resort to any violence. That to focus on these rather than steps along the pathway to violence, "escalation behavior" is to be distracte by a shiny object rather than real threats.

 

[Warp]

At first when I read about the speech I was a little dissapointed, but then I read a comment saying how this speech shows that the only thing the nra cares about is protecting our ability to carry guns. This comment was meant to be negative but I thought, exactly! This is what the nra does and this speech was a good strategy towards this end. Its not the nra's responsibility to solve this nations violence problems, and we shouldn't expect it to, just like the liberals don't actually care about the kids, they juust care about taking guns away. No I don't agree with banning violent video games but I don't see any evidence that the nra actually wants to do that either.

Correct, you are. And I agree.

 

[larryh1108]

Definition of "military type weapons"?

Not examples. Definition, please.

PS: There are not statistics in your posts. Statistic would be numbers, with sources. Not just statements.

Playing word games to prove a point?
Try it on the antis, not me.
If you want a definition, use the internet. I'm sure you can find one.

We can use statistics to show almost anything we want.

PS: There are not statistics in your posts. Statistic would be numbers, with sources. Not just statements.

I made a statement about using statistics to twist anything you want. Is my statement false? Do you also need proof that that statement is true or are you just trying to be a funny guy?

Offense is the best defense, huh?
Do I need a link to prove that too?

Try your tactics on someone who is clueless. Make a counter point or something that adds to the conversation if you wish to be taken seriously.

 

[Warp]

Playing word games to prove a point?

Slow down there man.

A definition of terms is an absolutely essential requirement to ANY meaningful discussion.

You said "military type weapons" were used. If you don't even know what a "military type weapon" is (can even be your own personal definition) it's time to stop posting

P


I made a statement about using statistics to twist anything you want. Is my statement false?

Nobody knows what your statement even means. I suspect that even YOU don't know what it means. Without a definition of the term "military style weapon", your statement is meaningless and pointless.

If I use MY definition of "Military style weapon" then, yes your statement is 100% false.

 

[beatledog7]

Quote:
Originally Posted by beatledog7
Exactly, which is why we need to force government out of the parenting role.

Warp's response: So no more public schools? No more laws requiring school/education? No more laws concerning schools or school property or events in any way?

I suggest you read Post #314, but to answer your questions succinctly:

Laws requiring that children get a certain basic level of education? Yes.

The concept that the government at some level is by definition the primary source of that education? No.

Complete abolition of laws and regulations re: school grounds and events? At the Federal level, absolutely. It's a state or local issue.

 

[larryh1108]

Do you really think anyone here does not know what the term "military type rifle" means?


For those in the dark:
AR-15

The AR-15 comes in many sizes and has many options, depending on the manufacturer. The part shown bottom center is the lower receiver, which under US law is the component legally considered the "firearm".
Type Semi-automatic rifle / Service rifle
Place of origin United States
Service history
In service 1958–present
Production history
Designer Eugene Stoner
Designed 1957
Manufacturer ArmaLite, Colt, and others.
Specifications
Weight 2.27 kg–3.9 kg (5.5–8.5 lb)
Barrel length 20 in (508 mm) standard

16 in (406 mm)

14.5 in (368 mm)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cartridge .223 Remington, 5.56 NATO
Action Direct impingement / Rotating bolt
Rate of fire 800 rounds/min (fully automatic versions only)[1][2][3]
Muzzle velocity 975 m/s (3,200 ft/s)[4]
Effective range 400-600 m (avg 547 yd)[5][6][7]
Feed system Various STANAG magazines.
Sights Adjustable front and rear iron sights
The AR-15 (ArmaLite Model 15[8]) is a widely owned[9] semi-automatic rifle, of which the most famous derivative is the selective fire M16-series assault rifle used by the United States military.

Standard AR-15 rifles accept detachable magazines of widely varying capacities (including 10, 20, or 30 round magazines, or 100 round drums), and have a pistol grip that protrudes beneath the stock. AR-15 rifles are highly configurable and customizable. They are commonly fitted with several accessories such as bipods, collapsing stocks, threaded barrels for the attachment of a flash suppressor, and a rail system for the attachment of vertical grips, flashlights, laser sights, telescopic sights and other accessories. The most common bipod is the folding bipod, but there is also a vertical grip with a bipod release. Barrels can come in chrome and stainless steel. The steel barrel tends to be more accurate while the chrome tends to be more durable. It is also possible to use barrels of various rates of twist. AR-15s can also be assembled with a suppressor.

source:
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/AR-15

I made the statement "Numbers can show anything we want".
Is that statement, in itself, false?
It has nothing to do with what is written above it.
So, to be precise, can "we" use statistics to show anything we want? (generally speaking)

Now, you tossed out some "numbers".
I tossed out some "numbers" and showed how statistics can be used to show anything we want and you attack the semantics instead of the reply.
Nice touch.
Didn't work.

 

[Warp]

So when you use the term "Military style weapon" what you mean is "AR-15"?

So I suppose the ban will be on the AR15 but not on the AR10? Not on the M1A? Not an the AK47?

That's cool. I'll just get a LaRue PredatAR in 7.62 Nato next.

 

[481]

I suggest you read Post #314, but to answer your questions succinctly:

Laws requiring that children get a certain basic level of education? Yes.

The concept that the government at some level is by definition the primary source of that education? No.

Complete abolition of laws and regulations re: school grounds and events? At the Federal level, absolutely. It's a state or local issue.

Two questions-

Did you refuse to accept the benefits of the collectivism you object to so vehemently here? -namely the educational system, the taxpayer funded research that provided medical advances that helped you out no matter how small. Are you presently using the US highway system and other taxpayer funded infrastructure?

If you have benefitted from these fruits and are still availaing yourself of them- you are part of the problem (the collectivism) and really haven't the position to speak to the problem since you are actively part of the problem.

 

[M-Cameron]

Second, where is the evidence that this shooting occurred because of his mental illness? We've managed to create a causal relationship here on thr that investigators haven't even found?

well he obviously had a mental illness because sane people dont go on shooting rampages.....

as to whether the shooting occurred because of his aspergers, well im no expert, but im doubtful.....lots of people have aspergers and they dont go on mass shootings.....

chances are good there was something else wrong with him in addition to his aspergers....

 

[beatledog7]

Two questions-

Did you refuse to accept the benefits of the collectivism you object to so vehemently here? -namely the educational system, the taxpayer funded research that provided medical advances that helped you out no matter how small. Are you using the US highway system and other taxpayer funded infrastructure?

If you have benefitted from these fruits and are still availaing yourself of them- you are part of the problem and really haven't the position to speak to the problem since you are actively part of the problem.

__________________

I went to public schools because I was sent there by my parents. There were no private alternatives they could afford, just as is the case for many parents now, due to mandated funding of public schools with no opt-out.. My undergraduate and graduate education were at universities where I paid tuition or was on scholarship, largely funded by alumni donations, but yes, partially funded by tax dollars--state tax dollars primarily, not federal.

Private funding for medical research, mostly on the part of medical technology companies and pharmaceutical companies, has done far more to advance medicine than government has done.

I drive on highways, and these are provided for in the US Constitution (post roads) are or state and local funded. Yes, there are some federal road projects that are not interstate in nature, and I drive on them because they are the roads that go where I need to go. If they had not been federally funded, but were needed, they'd still be there but would have been funded by some other entity.

The federal government has become so pervasive that it is virtually impossible to conduct one's life without regularly using something that was federally funded, but that was not how the Founders intended it to be. You can cite examples of how I benefit from said collectivism, but for every non-consitutional but still federally funded thing, there would have been a non-federal alternative--in many cases a more effective or more efficient alternative--if the federal government had not usurped it.

A gradual weaning off the federal teat is the only thing that will save this country.

 

[Warp]

well he obviously had a mental illness because sane people dont go on shooting rampages.....

as to whether the shooting occurred because of his aspergers, well im no expert, but im doubtful.....lots of people have aspergers and they dont go on mass shootings.....

chances are good there was something else wrong with him in addition to his aspergers....

Are you sure about that?

I don't know that I would say every single person who goes ona shooting rampage is insane/mentally ill

 

[xXxplosive]

Well.......I liked his approach and agree with most of what Wayne pointed out. It didn't become a who's right shout out between pro and Anti other than those to jackweeds...Wayne made it a discussion on problem vs. solutions......want to see what the Obama task force with Uncle Joe leading it comes up with.....Huh.....IMO....the NRA is approaching this correctly, waiting for the hysteria to subside, sizing up the opponent and then .....It's On.
Give them a chance............

 

[M-Cameron]

I don't know that I would say every single person who goes ona shooting rampage is insane/mentally ill

yeah pal, im willing to say that mass killers have some form of mental illness

if that werent the case these types of shootings would happen far more often...

and im pretty sure any credible psychologist would agree that utter disregard for human life, extremely violent tendencies, and in many cases suicide are all indicive of mental illness.....

unless of course you can provide some examples of a mass killer who was declared mentally sane.

 

[Warp]

yeah pal, im willing to say that mass killers have some form of mental illness

if that werent the case these types of shootings would happen far more often...

and im pretty sure any credible psychologist would agree that utter disregard for human life, extremely violent tendencies, and in many cases suicide are all indicive of mental illness.....

unless of course you can provide some examples of a mass killer who was declared mentally sane.

Have you been declared mentally sane?

Or do you presume that people are mentally sane until proven otherwise?

 

[larryh1108]

Many mass killers have been deemed sane enough to go to trial and to be executed, if that was the outcome. Now, I can't state any difference between mentally sane, criminally sane or morally sane because I have no expertise there. Some people are just evil.

 

[M-Cameron]

Have you been declared mentally sane?

nope, but then again i havent killed anyone yet.....

Or do you presume that people are mentally sane until proven otherwise?

yeah, im pretty sure murdering a room full of innocent and defenseless children proved otherwise.....

Many mass killers have been deemed sane enough to go to trial and to be executed, if that was the outcome. Now, I can't state any difference between mentally sane, criminally sane or morally sane because I have no expertise there. Some people are just evil.

being sane enough to stand trial=/=not having mental illness.....its simply means you understood your actions and the consequences of said actions.

 

[Warp]

nope, but then again i havent killed anyone yet.....

yeah, im pretty sure murdering a room full of innocent and defenseless children proved otherwise.....

Every single mass killer has killed a room full of innocent and defenseless children?

 

[gossamer]

well he obviously had a mental illness because sane people dont go on shooting rampages.....

This is not so. Otherwise sane people do go on shooting rampages.

First of all, mental illness is not insanity. Second, Aspergers is not insanity (it is a cozy shorthand for a series of behavioral symptoms).

We only decide people were insane afterwards which is of little validity in protecting the targets of their violence from them. Moreover, extensive studies show that perpetrating a mass shooting requires the planning, organization, and care that an insane mind is not capable of.

Anders Breivik the worst perpetrator of a mass killing in the last 20+ yearswas deemed sane.
Nidal Hasan was ruled sane.
Charles Whitman was otherwise sane.

Etc etc.

I go back to the point I've been trying to make here for days: decades of studies show that these events are predictively linked to patterns of escalating behavior, contact and planning that leads to this. Playing video games is not among these. Mental illness is not among these. Owning guns is not among these.

 

[481]

__________________

I went to public schools because I was sent there by my parents. There were no private alternatives they could afford, just as is the case for many parents now, due to mandated funding of public schools with no opt-out.. My undergraduate and graduate education were at universities where I paid tuition or was on scholarship, largely funded by alumni donations, but yes, partially funded by tax dollars--state tax dollars primarily, not federal.

Private funding for medical research, mostly on the part of medical technology companies and pharmaceutical companies, has done far more to advance medicine than government has done.

I drive on highways, and these are provided for in the US Constitution (post roads) are or state and local funded. Yes, there are some federal road projects that are not interstate in nature, and I drive on them because they are the roads that go where I need to go. If they had not been federally funded, but were needed, they'd still be there but would have been funded by some other entity.

The federal government has become so pervasive that it is virtually impossible to conduct one's life without regularly using something that was federally funded, but that was not how the Founders intended it to be. You can cite examples of how I benefit from said collectivism, but for every non-consitutional but still federally funded thing, there would have been a non-federal alternative--in many cases a more effective or more efficient alternative--if the federal government had not usurped it.

A gradual weaning off the federal teat is the only thing that will save this country.

So you are fine with receiving the benefits, but everyone else can now fend for themselves because you don't want to pay your taxes/part of it?

Part of the tax-funded teat- those roads that are paid for be Federal, State, and Municipal taxes are still part of the collectivism you eschew- it is still paid for by money that was paid by the taxpayers- are you able to pay for the upkeep of your own private roads to wherever you wish to go now? If you want to stop suckling at the tax-funded teat, that is what has to happen. Got the funds?

Your argument seems to suffer from numerous unrealistic assumptions. Perhaps a rethink is in order?

 

[gossamer]

unless of course you can provide some examples of a mass killer who was declared mentally sane.

Uh, okay "pal."

Anders Brevik
Nadal Hasan
Colin Ferguson


Should I go on?

 

[M-Cameron]

Anders Breivik the worst perpetrator of a mass killing in the last 20+ yearswas deemed sane.

Breivik underwent his first examination by court-appointed forensic psychiatrists in the autumn of 2011. The psychiatrists diagnosed him with paranoid schizophrenia, concluding that he had developed the disorder over time and was psychotic both when he carried out the attacks and during the observation. He was also diagnosed with abuse of non-dependence-producing substances antecedent of 22 July. The psychiatrists consequently found Breivik to be criminally insane.[87][88]

because nothing says sanity like paranoid schizophrenia

Charles Whitman was otherwise sane.

Charles whitman never stood trial....so well never know one way or the other....although there were anomalies with his brain which may have influenced his behavior.