Wanye is out of his mind

[Halperns]

The NRA is on the right track.

This morning's speech was, in my opinion, designed to accomplish two things; namely, break focus and offer a solution.

No amount of logic, reasoning, facts and statistics will reach people who aren't listening.

This is just like working with aggressive dogs. Nothing gets through to them unless you can break their focus. Only when you have their attention can you redirect it and in essence that's exactly what the NRA did this morning.

Now they can get down to the business of delivering more detailed positions and recommendations. I say very well done for what is assuredly only the first step of their plan to become actively involved in a solution.

I've been displeased with the NRA for years and waited for this morning's news conference expecting to be disappointed yet again. To say I was pleasantly surprised is an understatement.

 

[kwguy]

We must realize that we are not on a level playing field. Logic, facts, and numbers are all in our favor, but the anti's don't care about logic, facts, and numbers. That's were the term "talking to a brick wall" comes from. They. Don't. Care. And they lie. And they have the media on their side. That's reality.

Of course armed security works, both as a deterrent, and as a response (I'm sure I don't need to explain that). It won't solve EVERY problem EVERY TIME, but it's definitely better than having only a camera and a locked glass door. It is being done in schools already. Metal detectors and vault-like entrances and exits works too. There is more than one way to skin this cat. The police and SWAT have also changed tactics during these active shooter situations. During Columbine, if I remember correctly, the standard procedure was to set up for a hostage type scenario, with a cordon, etc. Now it's a much more agressive response. Even in CT, the police broke into the school and agressively went after the shooter. You have to be agressive. But there was a gap. When prevention or deterrence doesn't work, agressive response is needed NOW, not 5 or 10 minutes from now. The only way to get that is with a presence at the location.

As far as causal factors, desensitizing one to violence can be / is done. It exists. There are processes by which it is done. It happens with soldiers, police, criminals, etc. Is it games? Proliferation of violence in movies and culture? Music? There is no one right answer, is there? But I bet it's not caused by inanimate objects.

How do you pay for it? Who knows? Is it important enough to pay for with taxes, or private fundraising, or personal time? I believe it's important enough to pay for in some way. I believe the NRA's plan was to use qualified volunteers. That concept and execution has worked in the past. Why not now?

If we wait for the gov't to solve this problem, it will be ineffective, and it will still cost us.

 

[mljdeckard]

Also realize this. (And I am frankly tired of the subject, I'm taking a break for a while I think,)

Anything that the NRA suggests will be dismissed outright simply because it was suggested by the NRA. No one thinks it will actually be implemented. But the opposition can no longer say; "The NRA has no solutions other than the same old rhetoric."

 

[kwguy]

Sadly, the NRA is always dismissed.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Sadly, the NRA is always dismissed.

True. Even in this thread multiple life-members have said they are turning in their card. It seems very odd to me upon this occasion. A good lawyer/tactic is to buy time.. guess what doods, time was/is being bought.

 

[kwguy]

Yup. They have the media on their side. Right now, Piers Morgan is again telling lies about "assault weapons" on CNN. It makes me want to vomit listening to these liars. And there is no one to call them out. We have no media voice powerful enough compete with the major networks. We need to be smart. The NRA is (hopefully) playing it smart. It certainly seems like they are.

 

[kwguy]

How in the world does Piers Morgan get away with this. He just had a guy on there, and Morgan actually said that the AR-15 can be easily modified to full auto fire, and I'm sitting there in disbelief at this lie. Then, he shows a youtube video of a slidefire stock. Beyond words.

 

[golfer_ray]

We must realize that we are not on a level playing field. Logic, facts, and numbers are all in our favor, but the anti's don't care about logic, facts, and numbers. That's were the term "talking to a brick wall" comes from. They. Don't. Care. And they lie. And they have the media on their side. That's reality.

Of course armed security works, both as a deterrent, and as a response (I'm sure I don't need to explain that). It won't solve EVERY problem EVERY TIME, but it's definitely better than having only a camera and a locked glass door. It is being done in schools already. Metal detectors and vault-like entrances and exits works too. There is more than one way to skin this cat. The police and SWAT have also changed tactics during these active shooter situations. During Columbine, if I remember correctly, the standard procedure was to set up for a hostage type scenario, with a cordon, etc. Now it's a much more agressive response. Even in CT, the police broke into the school and agressively went after the shooter. You have to be agressive. But there was a gap. When prevention or deterrence doesn't work, agressive response is needed NOW, not 5 or 10 minutes from now. The only way to get that is with a presence at the location.

As far as causal factors, desensitizing one to violence can be / is done. It exists. There are processes by which it is done. It happens with soldiers, police, criminals, etc. Is it games? Proliferation of violence in movies and culture? Music? There is no one right answer, is there? But I bet it's not caused by inanimate objects.

How do you pay for it? Who knows? Is it important enough to pay for with taxes, or private fundraising, or personal time? I believe it's important enough to pay for in some way. I believe the NRA's plan was to use qualified volunteers. That concept and execution has worked in the past. Why not now?

If we wait for the gov't to solve this problem, it will be ineffective, and it will still cost us.

Oh dude, Biden's in charge of this. No worries!

 

[asia331]

Having just viewed Wayne's presentation in its entirety I thought he did a masterful job in both describing the problem and identifying steps right now to protect our children. He exposed the hypocrisy of celebrities and politiciams who provide for their own security while at the same time demanding that the commoner surrender their rights to the same. Well done Mr. LaPierre.

 

[Sam Boca]

At this point, I think we could give up private sales at gun shows without background checks. Set it up so FFL can run background checks for private sellers for a fee. I for one, would like to know the person I'm selling to could pass a background check but I have no way to run one.

I think at some point, we're going to have to throw them a bone or we're gonna have a ton of bricks fall on us. Plus when they start bitching about guns, we can say "We closed the gun show loophole you were complaining about, so ****"

This would not apply to private sales taking place outside of a gun show.

What do you guys think?

 

[gc70]

I think at some point, we're going to have to throw them a bone or we're gonna have a ton of bricks fall on us. Plus when they start bitching about guns, we can say "We closed the gun show loophole you were complaining about, so ****"

No! We should not be thinking about how to surrender part of our rights to "throw them a bone."

If an idea has merit -and voluntary access to NICS at gun shows might- we should pursue it because it does have merit and not because we think it is something that would temporarily distract or satisfy our opponents.

 

[JN01]

It seems that no matter what the NRA said, it was going to be criticized as wrong-- by people who don't really have any answers either.

Sure we can all agree that the dangerous crazies should be locked up, but it is not that simple to come up with an actual plan that accomplishes that without infringing on the rights of those who aren't dangerous. How about those whose delusions are never seen by the public eye? Anyone have a mind reading machine handy?

I'm all for not restricting concealed carry in schools, but realistically, that's not going to happen in most places. Also, there could be many schools where no staff member is willing to do it. Advocating paid armed security is at least a proactive suggestion, whether it would be effective in every case or not.

As far as video games and media impact, here are a few of my thoughts.
Can what you watch MAKE you do something? No. But to suggest that (in particular, ultra realistic and graphic) media has NO influence on ANYONE is really hard to swallow.

The multi billion dollar advertising industry operates on the premise that by watching their commercial, you may pick their brand over another.

Hollywood has long used entertainment programs to subtly send messages about political/social issues to mold public opinion (i.e. guns are bad).

Joseph Goebbels was pretty successful at using propaganda films to gain support for persecution of "undesirables".

Some posters have stated that video game manufacturers voluntarily use a rating system. This would seem to indicate that even they feel that it would be inappropriate for certain segments of people (children) to use certain games. Why? Is it because it would have a detrimental effect on those not mature enough to handle it? Now if someone who is already crazy with violent tendencies were to constantly play graphic violent video games and/or watch graphic gory movies, are we really supposed to believe that in no way, shape, or form would that EVER feed their delusions or incite them to act out?

Recognizing that fact doesn't mean that you have to support restricting or censoring those materials. But when you totally deny that it is at all possible, you lose some credibility.

Regarding those voluntary game ratings, they are a nice thought, but kind of useless without some sort of legal sanction behind them, if in fact we feel that some materials could be damaging if not age appropriate. Feed your 6 year old Jack Daniels or let him look at your porn collection, and someone from the government may come by to discuss your parenting skills. Let him play a game designed for adults- so what.

The NRA surely isn't perfect, but without them, most of the gun rights we enjoy today would already be gone.

If you are a purist, I guess you should give your money to the GOA or similar groups. I agree with most of what they say, and commend them for trying to get the facts out there, but you have to ask yourself, what have they really accomplished?

They don't have the high profile the NRA has, are not as often heard, and end up mostly preaching to the choir.

They don't have the lobbyists the NRA has, nor the political clout to influence lawmakers. Lots of people bitch about the NRA compromising. First off, they can't make laws, they can only petition law makers to write laws or vote to our benefit. Compromise is when you give something to get something. When the NRA offers suggestions for changes to a bad gun control bill that is certain to pass, it isn't compromise (we usually get nothing in return) but damage control- and we are usually better off with the revisions than without.

Even with all its flaws, NRA is the biggest, baddest, and most effective kid on the block. If you don't like how it is being operated, vote for change to (or run for) the board of directors (Harlan Carter did it a while back).

The other not so big but very effective group is the SAF. They have picked up the ball where the NRA has dropped it- the judicial front.

Does anyone know if they have issued any press releases on the school shooting?

 

[TreeDoc]

What has changed between 1985 and 2012? Cell phones, not many, PCs, not many, no laptops in 85, smart phones, nope. Internet? nope. Halo, violent videos games, nope. Violence in movies on the rise, but compared to 2012? Paintball, nope, airsoft guns nope. Gun laws, yes, even more restrictive than 1985. Could buy a AR 15 in 85, yes. Hi- cap pistol, yes, ak 47 etc yes.
Our culture has changed, parents are less involved, children are being let to make their own minds up about what they want. Children are growing up and are being desensitised to violence. Wayne hit it pretty square on head with his statement.

 

[gc70]

An unexpected reaction

I just checked my Yahoo mail and the top news story on Yahoo was predictably about the NRA news conference. The Reuters article recapped the NRA news conference and then had a long list of gun control luminaries criticizing the NRA proposal for armed guards at school.

The surprise was in the public comments about the article. A large number of people stated that there were already police/guards at their local schools, it was a good idea, and they had no intention of giving up that protection for their children.

 

[Alaska444]

Well, I'll throw in my two cents' worth-

I think Wayne (or Wanye) has a truly excellent solution in theory by having police in schools but it will be difficult- if not impossible- to put in practice due to costs, etc.

HOWEVER, an alternate solution of arming school faculty is highly practical in my opinion. Israel considers their children valuable enough to arm their school staff, and we should too.

While we're at it, we should also have an outright BAN on gun-free zones. I've said it before, all they do is create more human fish in a barrel for those who are bent on killing.

I'll shut up for now.

A very simple fact that goes unnoticed in these discussions is the fact that most American churches saw the light so to speak more than a decade ago and formed volunteer, unpaid security teams. One such team stopped a mass shooting by stopping the creep at the point of entry. Unfortunately, he already killed two in the parking lot and two in a remote church location.

http://www.koaa.com/news/looking-back-5-years-deadly-new-life-church-shooting/

Through the actions of ONE trained ccw/leo volunteer, a man with over 1000 rounds of ammo was stopped in the lobby of the building. Churches are not immune, but we no longer hear of mass shootings in churches. They already have the only viable, no cost solution with volunteer CCW participants. That is essentially what they did in Israel as well.

Mas Ayoob has written on this issue several times talking about the Israeli experience and he recently updated this topic a few days ago.

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2012/12/15/against-monsters/

Mas is correct, America's political correctness will not get it right. Gun control is how they will proceed. Very sad.

 

[Sam Cade]

What has changed between 1985 and 2012?

Well, for one thing the violent crime rate is much lower now.

Gun laws, yes, even more restrictive than 1985.

Other than the machine gun registry being closed, firearm laws are much MUCH more liberal as a whole now than they were in 1985.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act

Children are growing up and are being desensitized to violence.

A thought experiment:

Is a child who is raised on a working farm, slaughtering and butchering animals, taught to hunt and enjoy actual killing, more or less desensitized to violence than an urban latchkey child who likes action movies?


http://www.foxnews.com/health/2010/10/19/does-constant-violence-desensitize-bore-teens/

 

[Alaska444]

I just checked my Yahoo mail and the top news story on Yahoo was predictably about the NRA news conference. The Reuters article recapped the NRA news conference and then had a long list of gun control luminaries criticizing the NRA proposal for armed guards at school.

The surprise was in the public comments about the article. A large number of people stated that there were already police/guards at their local schools, it was a good idea, and they had no intention of giving up that protection for their children.

Los Angeles Sheriffs are already in a lot of the schools in our area. It just makes sense. Maybe the LA County Sheriff will give some light to this discussion, but I won't hold my breath since he is the one who keeps me from having a CCW permit in LA county as well.

 

[Evergreen]

Maybe I am a pansy, but I respected his speech and agreed with a majority of the things he said, especially a nation-wide school security program. Countries like Israel have implemented this and it has saved many lives.. Many people want to live in a fantasy that crime and bloodshed just doesn't occur at schools, as that is just a place where people learn. Wake up and welcome to the Earth, not your fantasy TV sitcom you watched as a kid. You don't live in the 1940s anymore either.

Remember, his audience wasn't us, it was the anti-RBKA, AWB promoting liberals, who are demanding an immediate solution to a problem we have in this country, called: "Freedom".

How about we demand a car ban every time there are deaths in a car accident. We are not talking to rational people, we are talking to a people with an agenda and he is trying to convince some of the less understanding people of this country with a feasible solution.

I'm not a great fan of violent video games, music and movies.. Don't think they should be banned.. But all the people chanting "child murderers" at the NRA were demanding a reason for all this. Wayne was probably giving the best possible response he could in this situation. There was no correct response, but there was better and worse responses and I felt he hit right on the mark with a good response.

I'm happy he didn't talk about restricting guns, which was my fear.. I would have ended my NRA membership permanently if they decided to go that route.

Anyhow, the NRA was condemned long before Wayne went on the stage.

Unless, we are locked up in our houses and have GPS/RF chips implanted in our bodies and cameras on us every second in a complete fascist ruled government, there is going to be murders, rapes, prostitution, thefts , fights, littering, drugs, drunks, cursing, etc etc.

Nazi Germany had and Saudi Arabia and North Korea have low murder and theft rates.. Perhaps we should adopt their model?

 

[catinthebat]

I'm with Wayne on this one. People spending hours a day going "KILL KILL! DIE! STAB STAB!" for almost their whole life isn't good.

http://www.ithp.org/articles/violentvideogames.html

This talks about the effects of violent games on people.

 

[Alaska444]

Maybe I am a pansy, but I respected his speech and agreed with a majority of the things he said, especially a nation-wide school security program. Countries like Israel have implemented this and it has saved many lives.. Many people want to live in a fantasy that crime and bloodshed just doesn't occur at schools, as that is just a place where people learn. Wake up and welcome to the Earth, not your fantasy TV sitcom you watched as a kid. You don't live in the 1940s anymore either.

Remember, his audience wasn't us, it was the anti-RBKA, AWB promoting liberals, who are demanding an immediate solution to a problem we have in this country, called: "Freedom".

How about we demand a car ban every time there are deaths in a car accident. We are not talking to rational people, we are talking to a people with an agenda and he is trying to convince some of the less understanding people of this country with a feasible solution.

I'm not a great fan of violent video games, music and movies.. Don't think they should be banned.. But all the people chanting "child murderers" at the NRA were demanding a reason for all this. Wayne was probably giving the best possible response he could in this situation. There was no correct response, but there was better and worse responses and I felt he hit right on the mark with a good response.

I'm happy he didn't talk about restricting guns, which was my fear.. I would have ended my NRA membership permanently if they decided to go that route.

Anyhow, the NRA was condemned long before Wayne went on the stage.

Unless, we are locked up in our houses and have GPS/RF chips implanted in our bodies and cameras on us every second in a complete fascist ruled government, there is going to be murders, rapes, prostitution, thefts , fights, littering, drugs, drunks, cursing, etc etc.

Nazi Germany had and Saudi Arabia and North Korea have low murder and theft rates.. Perhaps we should adopt their model?

I agree, but banning video games is no better than banning guns, either way, our constitutional rights are trampled. I likewise don't believe he stated anything off the wall. I have no doubt that as a parent, I ain't going to let my kids have those garbage video games, just my own opinion.

Unfortunately, this nation has long since ventured far from personal responsibility and the concept of freedom. Freedom comes with the price of personal maturity and virtuous behavior. Without it, we fall into anarchy or tyranny.

Three thousand years ago, the Solomon stated:

Proverbs 28:2 For the transgression of a land many are the princes thereof: but by a man of understanding and knowledge the state thereof shall be prolonged.

Our founding fathers understood how important personal restraint was in respect to the constitution:

William Penn stated: Those who will not be Governed by God will be Ruled by Tyrants”

Is it any wonder with America's rejection of God in so many places that we are now ruled by tyrants? I seriously doubt America will get this latest crises correct and we will fall further under the hands of the tyrants. Instead of national repentance, we will instead focus on guns and gun control and add further princes over our affairs. Being ruled by tyrants is the natural consequence of what William Penn stated over 200 years ago. We have much we have lost from our founding fathers. Perhaps we will truly understand the principles of our constitutional freedoms before it is too late. It is OUR duty to restrain and act virtuously or we will be ruled by tyrants for sure.

John Adams, our second president likewise stated: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

http://www.beliefnet.com/resourceli...s_to_the_Officers_of_the_First_Brigade_1.html

I can guarantee you that the original principles of our founding fathers and the message of William Penn and John Adams will not frame the discussion on mass killings in our schools. Perhaps we should.

 

[justice06rr]

I'm with Wayne on this one. People spending hours a day going "KILL KILL! DIE! STAB STAB!" for almost their whole life isn't good.

http://www.ithp.org/articles/violentvideogames.html

This talks about the effects of violent games on people.

I don't really buy that article. Just review the contrary.

Even without video games, people have harmed and killed their fellow man in the past. Looking all the way back to Bible times when Cain killed Abel, all the way to Americans killing indians, to Germans killing Jews in the Holocaust, and everything in between.

There are no video games in the past until the advent of computers. But yet, people have had the evil intents of homicide/suicide regardless. Today's technology just gives us access to "simulate" such violent actions.

Bottom line is, there is no denying that humans can inevitably commit acts of violence and hate which may lead to murder. Video games did not all of a sudden make us like this.

 

[Xyr]

The thing is: It's not the violent games themselves that's even a problem. It's the fact that some parents let their 12 year old spend 10 hours a day playing because "At least he's safe inside with me." instead of going outside and learning social skills.

Combine that with parents that will let their kid with KNOWN mental issues play these violent games and it quickly turns into an issue.

As you can tell, I'm a new poster. Been reading for some time. But I joined the NRA yesterday because honestly I can't sit back and do absolutely nothing while people guarded by guns want to take away my ability to guard my family with mine.

The problem isn't any one thing overall. But in the CT shooting the problem was keeping firearms in the house when she KNEW he was mentally unstable. She was trying to get him committed but had to go through the court system because he was over 18. He caught wind of this and then did what he did as a result. Regardless of Friday's press conference I'll side with the NRA over more legislation.

 

[Kiln]

Video games aren't the problem, there are literally tens of millions of people playing games like Call of Duty every time they get moment to play that don't ever kill another person.

Take a look at these two statements and decide if you still think this is a good argument:

"Violent video games should be banned because the mere presence of a violent video game in somebody's daily life can lead them to become extremely violent and dangerous. It is a murder simulator!"

"Guns should be banned because the mere presence of a gun in somebody's daily life can lead them to become extremely violent and dangerous. It is a tool for murder"

Some of the guys arguing against video games are simply old coots that think they've figured out where to toss the blame for violence. They throw it at Donkey Kong because they don't play Donkey Kong and don't see why anybody needs such a violent barrel slinging game.

 

[jcwit]

Video games aren't the problem, there are literally tens of millions of people playing games like Call of Duty every time they get moment to play that don't ever kill another person.

IMO this is like saying drinking and driving isn't the problem as there are 10's of millions of people on the roads driving impaired with alcohol that never cause an accident.

Or one can say the same that there are 10's of millions of people talking on cell phones or texing while driving that never cause a accident, when in fact we all know that is not the case.

 

[Sam1911]

Just a quick point of correction and y'all can get back to arguing over funding:

More kids die in car accidents every week.

Actually, according to the statistics I was able to find, more kids in the USA die every DAY in car accidents than died in CT.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.