What can i say to convince my liberal friends guns are good?

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ganymede

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The vast majority of my freinds, like myself are liberals. unfortunatly, many of them don't see why our second amendment rights are so important. The ones i bother trying to convince are rational, intellegent people who will respond when presented with a strong argument. what are arguments you suggest I use to convince them? so far the most effective thing has been taking them to the shooting range, but that isnt always an option.
 
Try this, I can't be sure it will work because some people are beyond being reasoned with.

Tell them that you believe that in a political society the most important of all things is the preservation and protection of innocent human life. If they agree with you then state that the best historical and empirical evidence proves that in a political society the private possession of arms ( personal weapons, not all weapons like bazookas or such ) is necessary for the preservation and protection of innocent human life.

For reference have them do a web search for thinks like Kleck and guns. Then, have them visit the web site www.davidkopel.com and read what he has written. Also, have them download and read the petitioner's Brief for McDonald v. Chicago at http://www.chicagoguncase.com/case-filings/#SupremeCourt.

If none of that helps then I don't think anything will.
 
I found that most of my friends warmed up to firearms and the private ownership thereof once they actually shot one. I'm from and still reside in CA, and when I went to college most of the people I met (more like all of the people I met) had never shot or even seen a gun. Two of the girls I lived with last year were rabidly anti-gun...until I took them to the range and let them shoot a few strings of traps with my shotgun. They're not NRA members now, but they are at least not afraid of guns and understand why people own them. Once people get some experience with guns, they often start to understand that they're useful and can even be enjoyable rather than just being evil things to be demonized. I'd ask your friends to at least come try shooting a gun and get some experience before they judge them.
 
As I understand it, the first anti-gun laws were racist in nature.

When you depend on others to protect you, they can abuse it at take your freedoms.

I once had a girl ask me why people needed assault rifles. I said, "What if I need to kill someone?" Then I clarified to say if someone were raping a loved one, I would want to protect my loved one in the most effective manner.
 
When people challenge why you would need a gun to defend myself, I always point out that I'm a safe driver - 6 years and hundreds of thousands of miles of driving and I've had a total of one ticket (for talking on my cell phone). By that logic I don't 'need' car insurance - I'm a good, safe driver and I avoid accidents, but any reasonable person would agree that I was a moron if I stopped paying for insurance. Because what if someone hit me? Same thing with a gun - I don't go around looking for confrontations or expecting people to break into my house, but I'd rather be ready in the rare case it happens than not.
 
Funny -

Just in from the shop

Cleaning and oiling and sharpening a

Couple chainsaws

(For my next mass-murder binge).

More seriously, for the 80' fir tree dropped

On my yard by the last iteration of nasty weather.

A tool is a tool is a tool.

The right to keep and bear arms is no exception to this rule.

One might as well require shovels to be Federally defined and licensed,

With appropriate ID and fingerprints.

What I'm driving at, here, is the differentiation

Between cause and symptom.

The fanatics on either side of the aisle

Who make a point of separating guns from tools

Are running a political agenda,

Not a practical agenda.


isher
 
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Tell them that people have been hunting with firearms in the USA for hundreds of years, and hunting is a tradition that ought to be respected.
 
If someone asks me, "Why do you need an assault rifle? " I say the last time I checked it's called "The Bill of Rights" not the Bill of Needs

If their desire is to end death and destruction in the world, remind them that death and destruction was around long before gunpowder.
 
The short answer is:

--I don't think you can. When I look at the arguments in reverse, and put myself in their shoes, and ask myself "What argument could be used that would ever convince me that guns are evil?", I find it impossible to come up with an answer.

It's a difference in basic types of people. It's not a "bad" or "good" thing. I have good friends, who are good people, who just don't get it.

It takes a tragedy to remove blinders, sometimes. I don't wish that on anyone.
 
Pass them a copy of GunFacts v5.1 and Dare them to read it from cover to cover.

Place a bet on the fact they can't finish it, 10-20 bucks if you can afford it :)

Most guys can't pass up a few bucks for a stupid bet like that, and it's not exactly a long read.

http://www.gunfacts.info


I only wish they made it in a "pocket" version I could carry around with me everywhere :)
 
For starters focus on firearms sports so they are aware that guns are NOT all for killing. The Penn and Teller thing mentioned above is great as well.

Point out that while basketball, soccer and other events require armed guards and frequently end in drunken violence these things do not happen at firearms events or gun shows. Therefore it must be the people involved and not the guns that are the problem.

Then ask whether they think they would turn into craven killers if they had a gun in their hands, ie, the gun doesn't cause any problems. It's all the human element.
 
I find that alot of people are not aware of the laws and restrictions on people who carry. I inform them, and also discuss the responsibilities that "most" people accept before doing so...like training and ethical considerations.

And also very important...that people who CC do not consider their gun their first solution...but the very last. That there are many other things that people can and should use to stay safe.
 
Another argument I make when people say that 'I'm paranoid'... I ask them if they have a plan for fire drills, escape plans etc for their family in case of a house fire. Then I ask if they have taught their kids to stay away from strangers and never accept rides from them, if they've 'practiced' this with their kids.

Pretty much all of them say yes and recognize these as 'prudent.' Then I point out that home invasions/burglaries are at least as common as those scenarios...so why is being prepared 'paranoid?'
 
You can't. Liberal thinking is based on emotional reasoning, not logic. (Oh yeah, I said it.)

TAKE THEM SHOOTING. Bring them to Impact in Ogden, rent them an MP-5. Besides the pure 100% fun they will have, it forces them to understand the difference between the criminal and the tool, because then THEY will have shoot a weapon of war, and realized that it didn't make THEM a criminal.
 
Heck, if weapons of war made the user a criminal, then the entire U.S. military would be criminals. Of course, according to many on The Huffington Post, they are. I couldn't believe the level of anti-Americanism I encountered on there. They were blaming America for the deaths of Iraqi civilians who were killed by a suicide bomber :confused:
 
mljdeckard said:
TAKE THEM SHOOTING. Bring them to Impact in Ogden, rent them an MP-5. Besides the pure 100% fun they will have, it forces them to understand the difference between the criminal and the tool, because then THEY will have shoot a weapon of war, and realized that it didn't make THEM a criminal.
Click to expand...

I support taking them to the range, but I suspect an MP-5 will turn them off shooting. They'll see it as just about making noise with an excessively powerful weapon, and won't respect that. Sure, they can use it responsibly, but to what end?

Take them target shooting with a 22, or to shoot clays. Even my gun-hating father enjoys clays on occasion. Emphasize the skill involved in shooting sports.
 
mljdeckard said:
I can tell you haven't shot one. (And they have suppressed ones too. :)
Click to expand...

I have not. I'd love to. But I like guns.

Maybe your liberal friends are just different than mine, but I suspect you'll have better luck making them comfortable than you will trying to awe them.
 
I'm another gun loving liberal* and some of this advice I consider more sound than others.

The good stuff:
For starters focus on firearms sports so they are aware that guns are NOT all for killing.

TAKE THEM SHOOTING.

Emphasize the skill involved in shooting sports.

you'll have better luck making them comfortable than you will trying to awe them
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You already know to take them shooting, but I think the introduction to a shooting sport (like Sporting Clays, Trap or .22 Steel Challenge) is even more effective.

Stuff I'm skeptical about or disagree with:
Pass them a copy of GunFacts v5.1 and Dare them to read it from cover to cover.

You can't. Liberal thinking is based on emotional reasoning, not logic.
Click to expand...
RE: GunFacts
I'm personally incredibly put-off by information presented as "FACT vs Fiction". I don't want a list of assertions, I want careful explanations and well reasoned responses to my concerns. This requires a respectful conversation moreso than being handed pre-packaged arguments.

RE: Illogical liberals
All liberals I converse with think carefully about their views and are very reflective. Many of them site John Rawls as very influential in forming their views. I most frequently see claims that they're categorically illogical made by people who cannot distinguish between logic and and their subjective "common sense".


I personally don't think these types of opinions are changed by well reasoned argument. Familiarity with shooting and firearms (and current laws) will pay off much more quickly than debate. Make it especially clear who prohibited possessors are.
It would be helpful to know the source of their discomfort.
If you want data, a great source is the book Armed and Considered Dangerous: A survey of Felons and Their Firearms. It's old (pre-background checks), but answers questions like:
What demographic do violent criminals come from?
Are their crimes pre-meditated or crimes of opportunity?
What do they look for in a weapon (cheap, concealable, accurate, untraceable...)?
Why do they chose these weapons, or to carry weapons at all?
If they don't carry a weapon, why?
Where did they get their weapon?
etc.


*by Arizona standards definitely. I'm not sure I'd qualify in some other areas of the country.
 
If someone asks me, "Why do you need an assault rifle? " I say the last time I checked it's called "The Bill of Rights" not the Bill of Needs

If their desire is to end death and destruction in the world, remind them that death and destruction was around long before gunpowder.
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Those are awesome, I haven't heard those before.

Someone on THR has the tag line "when the seconds count, the cops are only minutes away" I'm in LE and I fully agree with that statement. When a violent crime goes down, you're on your own until law enforcement shows up...if you're even able to call in the first place.

As for the "assault rifles," why should a law abiding person be out-gunned by their attacker? If the badguy has 30 rounds at his dispossal before having to spend time to reload, and you're limitted to have to work the bolt (3 seperate movements) for every shot, you're not going to have a good day (to put it lightly).
 
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There are a lot of liberals who are not anti-gun. I know a few, and I am not a conservative either. I have voted for both party candidates and consider myself independent. Labelling liberals as "those anti-gun liberals" is insulting, ignorant and doesn't help our course one bit. If anything its enough to turn a borderline anti-gun liberal full anti-gun because they associate your ignorance and insult with being pro-gun. There are idiots on both sides of the arguement as surely as there are extremists. Whatever happened to "live and let live?" How about both sides respect the other sides preferences? If you hate guns, fine, stay away from them, no-one forcing you to own one. If you are pro-gun, respect those who are anti-gun. Way I see it, that would help us, because frankly it is the anti-gun crowd who are so adamant on forcing their opinions on us pro-gun people. Then again, what do I know we don't live in a perfect world, and last I checked the anti-gun crowd does not read this forum, so my words will most certainly fall on deaf ears or is it blind eyes?:banghead:
 
Insist they go to their very own liberal blog site and read this excellent article, "Why Liberals Should Love The Second Amendment".

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/21/19133/5152/392/496931


This is an appeal to every liberal who believes in fighting against the abuses of government, against the infringement of our civil liberties, and for the greater expansion of our rights.

This is an appeal to every liberal who thinks, despite some poor judgment on the issues of, say, slavery or women's suffrage, the Founding Fathers actually had pretty good ideas about limiting government power and expanding individual rights.

This is an appeal to every liberal who never wants to lose another election to Republicans because they have successfully persuaded the voters that Democrats will take their guns away.

This is an appeal to you, my fellow liberals. Not merely to tolerate the Second Amendment, but to embrace it. To love it and defend it and guard it as carefully as you do all the others.

Because we are liberals. And fighting for our rights -- for all of our rights, for all people -- is what we do.

Because we are revolutionaries.
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It may not convince them that "guns are good". But if it doesn't convince them that "our second amendment rights are so important" - they're hopeless.
 
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