Why are liberals against the second amendment?

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I'm not sure people are trying to turn it into a "liberals suck" thread.
Some are simply saying more "liberals"
(as defined by the MEDIA and the liberal politicians themselves)
vote for legislation that places more restrictions on our 2a rights.

Remember people, the LABELS were assigned to us.
By the media and those *'special interest groups'
who are assigning those labels so as to cause us
to pair off, divide and fight further amongst each other...
Thus taking our eye of the ball.
*'special interest groups' <<< (see? a label)

I'm a liberal on many issues, a conservative about other issues.
A libertarian, independent and a constitutionals as well.

Point is, those are just LABELS.
All of us are Americans first.
In fact, I bet most of us have a lot more in common than our 'dividers' would
want us to think about.

Think about that. :)
 
I still haven't figured out how progun liberals can be progun when they vote for antigun politicians.
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You said it right! How can so many vote for a socialist candidate?


Oh darn. There I got back into this goofy mess!
 
GEM at Comment # 140 said:
Joe is quite on the money. The debate brings on group polarization and a shutting of minds to rational argument. It is a well known cognitive effect. Folks also want to look evidence that supports their position and not look at things that don't support them.

Group polarization on an issue then leads to ascribing a whole series of negative characteristics to the group you disagree with.

Groups also sometimes prefer ideological purity and defeat on an issue than a compromise. It is more fun to stew and rant than cooperate in any manner with your 'opponent'.

I could give examples from all sides of the political spectrum but I'm afraid that those locked into a position wouldn't read it.

Last - folks in the middle, see the debate driven by nuts of both extremes and tune out.
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The whole concept of this debate is purely academic. As it stands in the Constitution, government has no power to infringe upon our Right to Keep and Bear Arms. All the anti-gun-rights legislation that government has done up to this point has been unconstitutional. What's to compromise?!?!?

At best, we should CONSOLE these distressed anti-gun-rights people. We should ease their minds. If they want to have discourse on why certain arms should be banned or limited, we should suggest they get in touch with their Congress critters and state legislators and call for a constitutional convention to amend the Second Amendment to allow these changes they wish for. That is where such debate would be more than just academic.

Before the Constitution is allowed to be amended, I'd want to see these people - and their cohorts in Congress, on the Court, and in the several state legislatures - actually abide the Constitution as it stands. Until it can be shown by them that they will abide the Constitution as it stands, how do any of the rest of us know they'll abide the Constitution after any such amendment might be ratified? Bear in mind that a tactic of liberals is in how they will construe(misconstrue?) the Constitution as it stands to their liking. In essence, we would be asking a tiger to change its stripes.

As for those folks in the "middle", for all intents and purposes, they are useless. They sit on the fence, lean either this way or that, and can be "changed" between a tick of the clock to the following tock. More often than not, I find these people are for sale to the highest bidder. I can't abide them and will not cater to them. Let them educate themselves, take a stand, then we can have a debate with them and embrace them as an ally or dispute their stance as a foe ... like we do now with our friends and foes.

Woody

Look at your rights and freedoms as what would be required to survive and be free as if there were no government. Governments come and go, but your rights live on. If you wish to survive government, you must protect with jealous resolve all the powers that come with your rights - especially with the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Without the power of those arms, you will perish with that government - or at its hand. B.E. Wood
 
Wait, there is a "liberal" on THR. Next you'll be trying to convince me of the Easter Bunny and that Santa dude. :D

Speaking as a person who is not impressed with Liberals or Conservatives, I must say that your use of the word Liberal seems to be a little off. You referenced a preference for small govt. That is not very Democrat and, contrary to popular opinion, it is not very Republican either. I did not read the entire thread so someone may have said this already. It seems to me that the more appropriate label for you is Libertarian (if you desire such elementary labels). Due to your appreciation for the Bill of Rights and you desire for a government that appreciates it, I would just label you a proud/dissappointed American citizen.

BTW - I am proud of the THR brethren for keeping this conversation civil and the Moderators for allowing it to happen.

Heavy
 
That's what they mean by gun control.
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If it was then the republicans and independants would support it too.

contrary to popular opinion, it is not very Republican either.
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Yes it is. The problem is that for the last 8 years we had a RINO who didn't follow that rule.

Fully half of U.S. gun owners registered to vote are registered Dems or independents (including me).
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Source

I think that's a bit suspicious, because only 32% of gun owners or those with a gun in the house want stricter laws, compared to more than twice that number for general Democrats.

If gun owners or those with a gun in the house were represented the same among Democrats as among the general populace, that is, 40%, that would mean that 75% of the non-gun-owning Democrats want stricter gun laws, or that gun-owning Democrats are less pro-gun than other gun owners.
 
There will be a ceratin percentage of people you will never convince to see your side regarding firearm ownership or kinds of firearm ownership.However there are a certain percentage you can convince if you talk to them in a manner that doesn't put them down or label them.And the fastest way to have a debate regress into name calling and defensive postering is calling them liberal or conservative in a degrading manner.Some people on both sides are so convinced the other is evil that that is all they can think and see,if you disagree with them they call you a &%$# liberal or %$#@ conservative.They can never conceive that many people are a little of both depending on a issue.

But in times of posting in debates besides the die hard anti that might be trying win a argument against me not stop and think,there are the other people who will read what you say and maybe agree after thought.Once you hammer home the fact of self defense as a right,and that they can't rely on police to always protect you some start to see your side.Once you expose to them for instance a ban on .50 cal rifles is a farce that none have ever been used in crime they mat start to think.

Because for mant people guns aren't a big issue to them,they don't follow the hobbie or legislation like most of us do but once you make them see it is about their self defense,and their rights also,sometimes you gain a new ally.But you won't if you start calling them names like &^%$ liberal,because then they start to see you as just that Republican conservative they dislike for all the other issues that are important to them.
 
Well, I've convinced even self-proclaimed communists about the gun issue. The danger with threads like these is that a bunch of people start talking about all the pro-gun liberals, and the pro-gun Democrats as if they are the majority, and they are not hurting gun rights by voting anti-gun. Then, some people are convinced and vote for anti-gun candidates. If literally everyone in the U.S. opposed an AWB, yet still voted for the people who try make a AWB the law, what would it matter?
 
I note that, after all that typing, you still haven't made an attempt to show how you would convince the lady across the street of the correctness of your postion. Do you have an answer for that?
 
quoteWell, I've convinced even self-proclaimed communists about the gun issue. The danger with threads like these is that a bunch of people start talking about all the pro-gun liberals, and the pro-gun Democrats as if they are the majority, and they are not hurting gun rights by voting anti-gun. Then, some people are convinced and vote for anti-gun candidates. If literally everyone in the U.S. opposed an AWB, yet still voted for the people who try make a AWB the law, what would it matter?


........................................................................................


For alot of people guns aren't important to them.They don't do much shooting sports or maybe they have one or two guns for hunting.They are liberal for other political reasons and vote for Democrats for those issues.But at the same time they want to be able to own a gun.But maybe since they aren't into guns that much save that hunting rifle or shotgun or owning a handgun they just don't give thought to those other guns being banned because their's aren't being banned.

So the best thing to do is engage them with facts that make them think and that expose the lies,and maybe......they may contact their congressperson or vote in polls against a ban after that.But if you think a person who puts abortion or healthcare or war or global warming or whatever as their priority above guns,will vote against their choice candidate or party just for guns it won't happen.
 
Poling is influenced heavily by how the questions are asked.

I took a poll call several years ago and the questions were leading to the Democrat in the race. I called the bluff and was asked by the pol "do you really believe that?"

Fewer people are actually anti gun than they want you to believe.

That said, with Pres, and both houses headed by antis we got problems!
 
I note that, after all that typing, you still haven't made an attempt to show how you would convince the lady across the street of the correctness of your postion. Do you have an answer for that?
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runrabbitrun provided a reasonable approach to convincing the lady-across-the-street in post #154, immediately after the exercise was proposed in post #153. While others could provide a myriad of different approachs, that would still only address a scenario dealing with one hypothetical person.

I dare_no, I double dog dare_one of you to explain without hyperbole or sarcasm what you believe the core beliefs of liberals/antis to be and why they have them.
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The problem with the challenge is that antis do not share a common set of core beliefs. You can't understand their argument(s) like you would those of a debating team of three or five members who might reach a concensus on meaning. The antis can't agree among themselves - there is no concensus of anti-gun beliefs.

The best we can hope to do is to identify some of the more typical arguments and have reasonable approaches to each of them. To some extent, that has been accomplished in the course of this thread as many anti arguments and positions have been raised and discussed.
 
...

If I know anything, its your not going to change someones POLITICAL mind. I learned it from my professor, she would always bring up political BS that pissed me off, and I would argue her opinion till she failed me if i had to.

Liberals are GENERALLY anti gun. Honestly I hate Democrats, because the leaders of the DEMOCRATIC party are against everything I am for. So because the leader is, anyone who is part of that group, I really don't care for. Crazy thing is, I have a few good friend who are Democrats, and that's why we never talk about politics.

IHD! IHD!
 
Poor east Texan yes we have problems,or potential problems but the greatest thing that wasn't around back in the Clinton days or prior is the internet that gives one to one capability to engage.

Also despite the problems we are causing ourselves price wise with panic buying ,it sent a loud message to the new Dems,even the media couldn't ignore it.For now,they know that bans and new laws are a loosing issue for them.While they throw out feelers and attempt to find other ways like the Mexican drug violence to see if they can get away with some new law,so far they have been shot down,we are winning against them for now,the more people on the fence are swayed to our side the better.

Like I said the reason Obama won was mainly Iraq and the economy and maybe healthcare,but those people that support the Dems for that may be swayed to support the 2nd amendment if engaged correctly.Got to understand that for many guns aren't a priority issue yet they don't want to be banned from them either.The problem is that the types trying to be banned aren't usually guns they care about anyway.If handguns were trying to be banned that would be a whole different matter for them.They don't know how popular a AR15 is and that they are used for target shooting and hunting unless you can show them facts,otherwise they will think you don't need that.
 
i really don't care what your convicitions or politics are or who voted for whom.... i'm a simple guy.... you are never going to convince some people of anything..... BUT so far here in the U. S. A. you are free to have any opinion you want.... the constitution says we have that right..... JUST DON'T TRY TO GUT OUR CONSTITUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the right to keep and bear arms shall NOT be infringed...........................................

LIFE IS SHORT.....
 
Because "liberals" like to live their lives in fear. They fear breathing the air, they fear the chance that a car may wreck, they fear the voices of free speech, they have fear of people that believe we can (and have the right to) protect ourselves and our loved ones, they fear the idea that the government is suppose to serve the people of the Republic and not the other way around.

They fear freedom.
 
I note that, after all that typing, you still haven't made an attempt to show how you would convince the lady across the street of the correctness of your postion. Do you have an answer for that?
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I would use statistics to show where gun rights have reduced crime, or where crime has increased or failed to decrease after gun control.

For alot of people guns aren't important to them.They don't do much shooting sports or maybe they have one or two guns for hunting.They are liberal for other political reasons and vote for Democrats for those issues.
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Well, I'm trying to convince people to have guns as a higher political priority. Enough that they don't vote for anti-gunners.

So the best thing to do is engage them with facts that make them think and that expose the lies,and maybe......they may contact their congressperson or vote in polls against a ban after that.
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What good is that if they still vote for anti-gunners who eventually make the supreme court anti-gun.
if you think a person who puts abortion or healthcare or war or global warming or whatever as their priority above guns,will vote against their choice candidate or party just for guns it won't happen.
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Actually, I disagree here. For instance, on issues like global warming and abortion, they often are not affected as much by that as by gun rights, so they can be convinced. In fact, just 4 years ago I was very far left. I was a pro-abortion and environment voter. If I had been a gun enthusiast during that time, I probably would have voted republican.
 
That is absolute crap.

I have always let my

Freak flag fly.

In case you think that "liberals"

Are huddling in the corner of the basement

Hoping for Daddy Do Good

To step in and solve everything........

Get another think.

In my opinion,

The Republicans are far more prone

To look for the political "hail mary" pass

To get them through their failure to deliver

And con another generation................

I am a well armed

And ammunitioned Liberal,

And have no intention of changing my course.

isher
 
In my opinion,

The Republicans are far more prone

To look for the political "hail mary" pass

To get them through their failure to deliver

And con another generation................
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Yep, it's those evil republicans conning another generation in to gun rights and other freedom.
 
Whew.... this is a harrowing thread. But I'll throw out a little more. Here is the thing y'all have to realize about most if not all "liberals" (modern meaning).

While they believe the government should do things like provide healthcare, or a certain standard of living or (whatever economic position), their social positions can vary alot.

They can sound very libertarian (or do libertarians sound very liberal....) in social matters. Atleast some of them (actually more than a few) are quite pro-gun.

It basically comes down to this: Is the specific liberal going to see this as a matter of "none of your business" or "please protect us."

Most don't like guns, not because they have a plot to put us all in chains, but because they look at protection of themselves as a government duty. And they are worried others may harm them if those others were armed.

I do believe that there are politicians (on the left and right) who are essentially evil. They are sizing us up for chains. I believe some are in the US. Europe has a few. Why they are evil, why they wish to control others.... I do not know, I imagine it varies from politician to politician. For them you look at the social policies they are okay with they are things which, if the people are free to do, won't harm their power. Guns obviously undermine those politicians. Those guys, you can tell.

Average everyday folks, it's what I said earlier
 
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jimbo -

I've been carrying and using guns for

About the last forty eight years.

All this processional party whimpering

Has got sweet ------ all

To do with the Constitution.

In another post, I said that the Republicans

Don't own the second amendment.

They don't, and never have.

Despite their big bill ad campaign to prove

That they own it, and the liberals don't.

Well, thank you very much,

I'm a Liberal and a gun owner,

And if you think that the Republican Party,

Let alone the Federal Gummint

Will have ultimate control of guns,

Let alone skilsaws, sawzalls, axes and sledgehammers,

Then you got another think coming.


isher
 
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