What Does a Bad Guy Look Like?

[RetiredUSNChief]

Wow. Some very skilled “Lookers” we have here.

Perhaps we can discuss those abilities???

So to assist with the topic of the thread and “Help” one another.

That's a bit overly sarcastic.

The OP was about exactly this. And situational awareness has long been preached as a cornerstone of self-defense.

Are you saying you're not capable of situational awareness yourself? Or that others are not capable of this?

This thread wasn't started for people to argue this...it was started to spark constructive conversation on a very important aspect of self-defense...tools which people can develop and utilize to avoid potential deadly conflicts.

 

[Lnf Crzr]

That's a bit overly sarcastic.

The OP was about exactly this. And situational awareness has long been preached as a cornerstone of self-defense.

Are you saying you're not capable of situational awareness yourself? Or that others are not capable of this?

This thread wasn't started for people to argue this...it was started to spark constructive conversation on a very important aspect of self-defense...tools which people can develop and utilize to avoid potential deadly conflicts.

Perhaps you read that as Sarcasm. I did not intend that to be . Perception of context I suppose.

What I was referring was…. As I’ve previously stated- this is a important subject matter and I’m Glad Kleanbore has brought it up. It can Save lives.

Bickering dosnt assist each other.

Discussing in detail like your last post, Very much is helpful to one another

That’s what I was referring to.

Thank you for your post.

 

[Kleanbore]

Wow. Some very skilled “Lookers” we have here.

Perhaps we can discuss those abilities???

That's what the thread is about. Ellifritz' article is excellent, as is Ayoob's similar article posted here.

Observations and the evaluation of same as discussed here and in other places people are important elements of self defense. "Situational awareness" is a much bandied about term, but many people really have little idea where to start, and may miss the most obvious indications of impending danger.

 

[Lnf Crzr]

This Topic reminds me of A video I seen.

In a surveillance video at Wally Mart- A person enters the doors with few other people and with Loud yelling and erratic behavior.

He eventually causes more concern. A Concealed Weapon permit holder is Attempting to save lives and follows.

From there as video shows, The Permit holder raises a Firearm to the Problematic person who also has a weapon………

It’s very obvious Who the bad guy is in the video. What isn’t obvious is the “Team” in this video.

The permit holder acted as a Leo in pursuing the erratic behavior (*Shouldn’t) individual and Didn’t see the calm cool “Bad Guy’s” partner who was following , Hence that person ended the Life of the Permit holder.

Point being…. You can’t see everything-No matter how Hard you look, discuss and Comment.

If you want to discuss this post- no problem, Just don’t imply I’m insinuating anything other than ……..

Be AWARE you will not see the “ bad guy “ all the time.

 

[Jeff White]

He eventually causes more concern. A Concealed Weapon permit holder is Attempting to save lives and follows.

Obviously his situational awareness is good, but his judgement is faulty. It’s not his job to attempt to save lives! A carry permit is NOT a peace officers commission

The permit holder acted as a Leo in pursuing the erratic behavior (*Shouldn’t) individual and Didn’t see the calm cool “Bad Guy’s” partner who was following , Hence that person ended the Life of the Permit holder.

If the permit holder was serious about saving lives he could have pulled out his cell phone instead of his firearm and called 911.

Point being…. You can’t see everything-No matter how Hard you look, discuss and Comment.

The lesson here is the permit holder should have moved away from the danger he spotted, then the unseen partner wouldn’t have figured into the situation at all.

The whole point of spotting a bad guy is to avoid him. Police departments are hiring everywhere. If you want to protect the public sign up.

 

[Kleanbore]

Hope no one is eyeballing me , Because I’m not reading fast enough the soup cans sodium content or the sugar content in the Cereal.

If you are reading, the observant witness will not be concerned.

That’s sounds a bit Weird and odd.

Put yourself in the position of someone who intends to rob the cashier in a store. If you can, you will want to take along a second set of eyes fo watch out for an armed citizen, and to do something about them if necessary. That's their job, and they try to make the presence less than obvious. Those folks are known as "tail gunners" in some regions, and in others there is another name for them.

I've heard of instances in which participants in FoF training have been gunned down by the accomplice. That stems from a failure of situational awareness of the kind we have been discussing here.

It is something to take into account before attempting to intervene in a robbery.

Odd? Not at all.

 

[Lnf Crzr]

I’m very Glad you brought these details to light
,as they are exceptionally important for those who are unaware while reading this. I also stated (Shouldn’t act as a Leo).

Yet the main point was- No matter your training, Observing and Thought ….. You simply can’t See the “Bad Guy” all the time.

That’s why I brought that story up.

Thank you for your Imperative Post Tho. Very important…. as is the topic here in this thread.

Obviously his situational awareness is good, but his judgement is faulty. It’s not his job to attempt to save lives! A carry permit is NOT a peace officers commission




If the permit holder was serious about saving lives he could have pulled out his cell phone instead of his firearm and called 911.




The lesson here is the permit holder should have moved away from the danger he spotted, then the unseen partner wouldn’t have figured into the situation at all.

The whole point of spotting a bad guy is to avoid him. Police departments are hiring everywhere. If you want to protect the public sign up.

 

[Lnf Crzr]

If you are reading, the observant witness will not be concerned.

Put yourself in the position of someone who intends to rob the cashier in a store. If you can, you will want to take along a second set of eyes fo watch out for an armed citizen, and to do something about them if necessary. That's their job, and they try to make the presence less than obvious. Those folks are known as "tail gunners" in some regions, and in others there is another name for them.

I've heard of instances in which participants in FoF training have been gunned down by the accomplice. That stems from a failure of situational awareness of the kind we have been discussing here.

It is something to take into account before attempting to intervene in a robbery.

Odd? Not at all.

What I was stating is odd… is That someone feels the need to watch me Read the labels of soup with great interest. I would tend to find that weird and suspicious.

That’s what I meant.

Ps ,Great Thread thus far and I’m Glad to give a positive participation in it ,as I am receiving great information from it.

 

[Kleanbore]

What I was stating is odd… is That someone feels the need to watch me Read the labels of soup with great interest. I would tend to find that weird and suspicious.

No one in his right mind would watch you reading labels. The persons to watch are those who are pretending to shop. Anyone should be able to not the difference.

Same idea applies to the would-be predator who is not really reading that newspaper. That's when you get your spouse or kids in close, or get out the cell phone.

 

[Lnf Crzr]

I’m certain if your situational awareness was Attuned- That would be Odd and Weird.

Imagine your not as Subtle as you think you are.

And A “Bad Guy” is Cognizant to it.

You could cause a situation to change for the worse….simply by your behavior, even if it is Without your Knowing.

“Treading lightly” ,so to speak is a good Suggestion.

No one in his right mind would watch you reading labels. The persons to watch are those who are pretending to shop. Anyone should be able to not the difference.

Same idea applies to the would-be predator who is not really reading that newspaper. That's when you get your spouse or kids in close, or get out the cell phone.

 

[Lnf Crzr]

Here's another bad guy look:

A man pushing a shopping cart around and pretending to look at stuff on shelves, but looking around at others in the store.

Possible predator or accomplice to a robber.

And another--I've seen this:

A man parked heading out by the door of a shop, hood up, wiping his dipstick for an extended period while watching people who are departing from the store.

Last month my Truck stalled- Fuel filter-
I was in a parking lot for a extended time with the hood up, Couldn’t figure out the issue.

As I was trying to figure it out I was glancing at people in parking lot.

The parking lot was at a bank.

Point is- It’s a very difficult Subject matter.
I like to hear your points-and others….. Yet not all are accurate.

 

[.308 Norma]

The persons to watch are those who are pretending to shop.

Most of the time probably. But I used to work with a guy whose wife worked at Walmart, and "pretending to shop" was a major part of her job - she pretended to shop while watching for shoplifters.
Ever since that coworker of mine told me about that, I try to pick out the "pretend shoppers" whenever I'm in Walmart. I think I've spotted several of them over the years.

 

[Kleanbore]

....I used to work with a guy whose wife worked at Walmart, and "pretending to shop" was a major part of her job - she pretended to shop while watching for shoplifters.
Ever since that coworker of mine told me about that, I try to pick out the "pretend shoppers" whenever I'm in Walmart. I think I've spotted several of them over the years.

Good input.

They're not all tail gunners, but they may bear watching.

 

[Kleanbore]

I’m certain if your situational awareness was Attuned- That would be Odd and Weird

You missed me.

Imagine your not as Subtle as you think you are.

I do not try hard to be subtle.

You could cause a situation to change for the worse

More likely, the robber who is spotted will abort the mission rather than initiate the action b his partner is ready.. I've caused that to happen.

 

[Kleanbore]

This is not something to be read once and filed. Unless the reader thinks carefully about everything having to do with the subject and starts practicing the observation skills discussed in the article, this will be wasted.

I shared this with some friends, and one relied that the foregoing is on point. Sees something new every time he reads the article.

 

[Lnf Crzr]

That’s similar to Leo’s who are under at the bars on a Friday or Saturday down town. One beer and then the second-Just sipping for a good long while.
Perhaps just a guy who drank a beer after work, met a work colleague and Dosnt want to be over the limit.
Or
Maybe he is “casing the place”.

I’ve worked long enough To know my Favorite burger place after work is a bar the team goes to on a Friday. When the games over, Fellas stick around- It’s not easy to see the Under’s, and they are not trying to be subtle- they are.

Point is- It’s very difficult to See the forest thru the Trees’s unless you have done it for a long time professionally (signs given)or Had training in that “type of matter”.

The “Bad guys” are not wearing clothes/colors that stick out. They are likely conducting business of some type. They look to see if your paying attention to them as you eat or drink. And if your attuned to them- That’s a tell.

Always best to tread light in the environment and blend. Choose your environment area to be, plan routes and use peripheral vision.

Some studies have class rooms set up with windows,tables and chairs, music and TVs
Student walks in and “chooses where to sit” Then the instructors proceed with the actions that need to be seen. If student can observe 3 of the 5 actions- they dont pass.

It’s more than just sitting in the rite spot to see a third point of view in a window reflecting…. with 2 others in your vision.

You just can’t see em all.

 

[danez71]

Well, you missed it. Indications that someone may be a possible threat are what the entire thread is about.

I didn't miss it at all. That's what I was trying to discuss but you asked me what I feel my ability is; which is not the topic of the thread as you pointed out and I agreed with a few times now.

Since we both know that's not the topic, it's odd that you asked me that.

For some reason, you discounted my...

No. I didn't discount your scenario.

I took it seriously enough to pose alternate perfectly normal actions that may be misconstrued as someone pretending took at stuff on the shelves so that there could be a thoughtful discussion as to what might the cues be to distinguish the difference.

You made it clear that you weren't going to spend the effort to do so.

Do you not think the suggestion worth while, or are you just feeling argumentative today?

As I just said, it's worth while. Which is why it's odd that 1) you asked me a personal off topic question and 2) made it clear you weren't going to spend effort to discuss.


All I wanted to do is explore the possible subtle cues to distinguish the difference. Maybe you have some ideas that I, or others, haven't thought of and vice versa.


But again, you've made it clear you're not going to spend the effort that others may learn from or you from them.

 

[Lnf Crzr]

Most of the time probably. But I used to work with a guy whose wife worked at Walmart, and "pretending to shop" was a major part of her job - she pretended to shop while watching for shoplifters.
Ever since that coworker of mine told me about that, I try to pick out the "pretend shoppers" whenever I'm in Walmart. I think I've spotted several of them over the years.

That’s a interesting perspective I never thought of at that store. I believe security at higher end stores do the same.

 

[Kleanbore]

you asked me what I feel my ability is;

I sdid not. I asked whether you thought you could distinguish between someone pretending to shop and someone actually shopping.

took it seriously enough to pose alternate perfectly normal actions that may be misconstrued as someone pretending took at stuff on the shelves so that there could be a thoughtful discussion as to what might the cues be to distinguish the difference.

No--you described the actions a of a shopper.

I should have thought that how one might try tp identify someone pretending to shop and distinguish them from one who is actually shopping would be patently obvious--though certainly not definitive.

Have you gained any ideas from subsequent posts?

 

[danez71]

So the topic pretending to be shoppers but actually are looking for shop lifters or what ever was brought up.

The cholesterol guy is me and the sodium person is my wife.

I've been tailed by who I think was a pretend shopper/employee at Target before and I think it was because I spent an unusual amount of time looking at labels of small snacks.

So even though I was doing something completely innocent, the trained person thought I was up to something bad.


I was hoping to discuss the subtle differences of the 2 similar actions and how/why they got it wrong as a real life example.

 

[Kleanbore]

The cholesterol guy is me and the sodium person is my wife.

And the sodium persons are me and my wife.

I've been tailed by who I think was a pretend shopper/employee at Target before

How odd. A "pretend shopper" "tailed you"? I wonder why.

I think it was because I spent an unusual amount of time looking at labels of small snacks.

What makes you think that?

So even though I was doing something completely innocent, the trained person thought I was up to something bad

So, you think the "pretend shopper" was a "trained person", and you assumed that he or she thought that you were "doing something bad". Why?

Off topic, but more people should know the sodium content of their foods.

 

[danez71]

I should have thought that how one might try tp identify someone pretending to shop and distinguish them from one who is actually shopping would be patently obvious--though certainly not definitive

Even though you think it would be patently obvious, as per my post above, what appears to have been, a mostly likely trained employee got it wrong. Very wrong.

Have you gained any ideas from subsequent posts?

You clearly stated that you weren't going to spend the effort. I feel you have succeeded.

Any other further attempt to have dialog with you on this would be contrary to your statement.

 

[Kleanbore]

as per my post above, what appears to have been, a mostly likely trained employee got it wrong. Very wrong.

What were the things that made you conclude you were being observed with suspicion?

Do you have any idea at all about what might have led to that?

Do you think the concern was about shoplifting, or about the possibility that you might have been an accomplice of a robber?

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Perhaps you read that as Sarcasm. I did not intend that to be . Perception of context I suppose.

What I was referring was…. As I’ve previously stated- this is a important subject matter and I’m Glad Kleanbore has brought it up. It can Save lives.

Bickering dosnt assist each other.

Discussing in detail like your last post, Very much is helpful to one another

That’s what I was referring to.

Thank you for your post.

I appologize, then. This wasn't clear to me. Thank you for clarifying that.

 

[Lnf Crzr]

Certainly- I very much prefer clarifying as to a disagreement. The later accomplish’s nothing.