When Officers Reed and Malloy Pull us Over

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Kleanbore

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I sent this to some friends today.

Warning: this is brutal. But it explains some things that people should know. Read and heed.

The linked article from the Deseret News is about one aspect of a recent tragic death. One Chase Allen died when he was shot by police officers during a traffic stop in Utah. The article is about a new strange breed who call themselves "sovereign citizens". If you want to read about these dudes, read the article.

There is much more to be learned from the incident, however. It applies to anyone who operates or rides in a motor vehicle. I'll try to cover the high points.

First, let's be very clear on one thing: regardless of what we may think we have learned from screen fiction, police officers do not carry firearms to threaten or shoot suspects for the purpose of enforcing the law--PERIOD. They carry them for one purpose only: to defend themselves or other citizens from deadly force attacks, when and only when it is immediately necessary to do so. THAT'S IT.

That happens to be the same lawful purpose for which law-abiding citizens who are not sworn officers carry firearms. The significant difference is that the civilian may not engage in self defense if he has initiated an encounter, whereas an officer who is necessarily arresting a suspect or stopping a motorist obviously does initiate the encounter.

If any of that is new to you, read it again, reflect on it, and forget screen fiction

Now we can discuss what led to the end of Mr. Chase Allen.

The police pulled Mr. Allen over due to a problem with his the license plate of his 3 Series BMW. That happens. It has happened to me.

The officer asked Mr. Allen for his identification. He refused. He did not have the right to do so. He then provided his passport, keeping the darkly tinted window of his car almost closed.

He spouted some "sovereign citizen" gibberish--see the article--and then said he would not answer questions or discuss anything with the officer. That was his right--he was not obligated to say anything at all.

Now, when most of us are stopped for a vehicle issue, (1) we identify ourselves, and (2) we are given a warning, or at worst, issued a ticket. We do have to sign the ticket.

Mr. Allen would not comply. He claimed he was not subject to the laws of Utah.

The officer, who was extremely respectful and polite, prudently called for back-up, and several more officers arrived. They all had body cameras. I have seen the video--all of it. Here's what happened.

Mr. Allen started taking video with a cell-phone that he was holding in his right hand. Okay.

But he then transferred the cell-phone to his left hand. That was a very bad idea.

Mr. Allen then used his left hand to clear his cover garment to expose the holstered firearm on his right side. That is what people do when drawing a concealed firearm--and he lowered his right hand to the gun.

Good Lord! One does not draw a gun on an arresting officer.

The officer at the driver's window shouted "gun! gun! gun!" and quickly jumped away. All of the officers then commenced firing, reasonably, properly, lawfully, and according to their training and procedures.

Mr. Allen sustained fatal wounds. He had withdrawn the gun, which ended up on the floor of the car, from his now-empty holster.

I cannot imagine what he might have been thinking.

He had made it clear that he would refuse to consider sign a traffic ticket, or to comply in any other way, but in effect he signed his own death warrant.

What can we learn from this? What should we do when we are stopped by a police officer?
  • Keep our hands where he can see them
  • Have our license and registration papers in hand before he gets to the car, so we will not alarm him by reaching to where a hidden weapon might be; that applies to everyone!
  • Be polite and respectful
  • Comply with his instructions; if we believe them to be unlawful, that is not the time to address that
  • If we are told to get out of the vehicle, we must do so
  • We are not required to answer questions, and some prominent criminal defense attorneys advise against doing so; personally, I do not subscribe to that philosophy unless there has been a serious accident
The following applies to those who may have a firearm in the car:
  • In some states, citizens are required to inform officers if they have a firearm in the car; if we are lawfully in possession of a firearm, we must comply with the laws of the state in which we are driving, not those of the state of our residence; it it is not required, the decision is up to us
  • BUT--if we are asked to get out of the car and we are carrying a concealed firearm, we want to eliminate any risk that any movement of our shirt-tail or jacket that briefly exposes the gun will alarm the officer, whose adrenalin level will naturallybe elevated under the circumstances; it's best to inform the officer that we are carrying concealed (do not say "gun") and ask how he would like us to comply with his instructions; should he ask us to take out the gun, we don't do it--we ask him to do it.
The above should help to ensure that we continue on our way.

I hope you find this helpful. Feel free to share.

www.deseret.com/utah/2023/3/10/23632303/what-is-a-sovereign-citizen-farmington-police-shooting
 
It sure looks like the suspect had both hands on his gun.
100% justified shooting
Screenshot 2023-03-12 134416.png
 
The police seem to be justified from what I saw but it's hard saying. We can't really see what the police officer saw.
I cannot open the youtube file.

On the bodycam video I saw, the right hand went to the gun, and the left, to the jacket.

It's imbedded in a LoSD blog post.
 
Yup. He managed to actually get the gun out of the holster before he was shot since that's the only way it could have ended up on the floor of the car.

Things to remember during a traffic stop. These are very simple things, but people have a lot of trouble with them.

1. The side of the road is NOT a courtroom. There is no judge, no jury, no attorneys arguing both sides of the case. The police officer is not a judge or a prosecuting attorney. Even if you are an attorney, if you are acting as your own attorney, then according to Abraham Lincoln, you have a fool for a client. Don't waste time trying to argue your case by the side of the road. If you want to have a trial, call the number on the ticket and get a court date.

2. You will not win a game of "Who is the biggest !@#$%^&?" with a cop by the side of the road. The cop has more resources than you do and probably a lot more experience.

3. Be polite. It costs nothing and, sadly, sets you apart from a lot of the people who the officer has had to interact with that day. I'm not saying you should kiss the officer's butt--just don't be a jerk.

4. Be smart. When you stop cooperating, you start raising red flags and may actually be breaking the law.

5. There are no magic words that will instantly end an interaction with the cops in a favorable manner.

6. You both have guns (or at least the cop does). Don't be stupid.
 
Sovereign Citizens aren't new. The movement has been around for decades. They are often violent when they encounter LE. I wouldn't say that this is the typical traffic stop encounter.

Yup. He managed to actually get the gun out of the holster before he was shot since that's the only way it could have ended up on the floor of the car.

Things to remember during a traffic stop. These are very simple things, but people have a lot of trouble with them.

1. The side of the road is NOT a courtroom. There is no judge, no jury, no attorneys arguing both sides of the case. The police officer is not a judge or a prosecuting attorney. Even if you are an attorney, if you are acting as your own attorney, then according to Abraham Lincoln, you have a fool for a client. Don't waste time trying to argue your case by the side of the road. If you want to have a trial, call the number on the ticket and get a court date.

2. You will not win a game of "Who is the biggest !@#$%^&?" with a cop by the side of the road. The cop has more resources than you do and probably a lot more experience.

3. Be polite. It costs nothing and, sadly, sets you apart from a lot of the people who the officer has had to interact with that day. I'm not saying you should kiss the officer's butt--just don't be a jerk.

4. Be smart. When you stop cooperating, you start raising red flags and may actually be breaking the law.

5. There are no magic words that will instantly end an interaction with the cops in a favorable manner.

6. You both have guns (or at least the cop does). Don't be stupid.

I would add, place both hands on top of the steering wheel before the officer approaches and if it's after dark turn on the dome light.
 
I started paying more attention to the sovereign citizen movement in the 90's, as I started encountering more of them at work. They've fallen under the umbrella of different groups and names. During the early 2000's I thought it was interesting that some folks claiming to be part of the movement would sometimes talk about offering less resistance to sheriffs (being elected by the people) than to city and state peace officers. They can be dangerous. Obviously.

One of the things I sometimes saw was the incredible amount of 'legal' paperwork some of them would generate. Some of it could become vexing if you were the focus of it.
 
My wife and I were traveling in Northern AZ and blew through a (as acknowledged by the officer) a speed trap, (goes from 65 to 45 in about 200yds, then back up!). No big deal, we pull over and the office approaches from the passenger side, stops at the rear quarter panel and begins speaking, with one of the first things he asks is if any weapons are present. I was in the passenger seat and responded that there was. He asked what, and to hand it out. I did as he requested and he placed the XD45 on the roof of the car and then continued with his questions. He was particularly interested in my wife's license plate which she explained as being a Field Deputy Medical Investigator in our state, NM. He was very courteous and we had a pleasant encounter with merely the admonishment to keep it slow handed back the weapon, and we went on our way. Now keep in mind that I am Hispanic from Northern NM and could easily pass as Afghani, Saudi, Syrian, or any other Mid Eastern threat. The officer was a young very white man named Smith, most likely from one of the nearby Mormon communities. I am used to profiling and have lived with it all my life. After 9-11 was an interesting time, I've been stopped by TSA, had my hands sniffed by the scanners, bags searched, etc. But by simply complying with this young officers requests in a respectful manner there were zero issues.
Be polite, show respect. They are more scared than you are!
 
I have had no bad interractions with law enforcement. One does stand out though from back in the late seventies.
Soutbound in South Carolina on US 17, dark, raining, on a motorcycle, just got back in-country. Got pulled over for speeding (yes I was) by a young patrolman working alone. He was particularly nervous so moved slowly, obeyed instructions after repeating them back to make sure we both understood. A backup arrived about ten minutes later and the atmosphere got a little relaxed. After the ticket etc started talking with them and find out somebody was taking shots at people at random in the area. Dug out a copy of my orders, showed them I was in Germany when the troubles started.
Ended up talking to them for about twenty minutes. Good guys, professional.
 
Strange breed indeed. Mentally ill people imagine themselves into states of being all the time. A lot of them convince other people that they are correct, and those people follow blindly. Believing that you are not subject to the laws, and law enforcement of the country that you are in, can result in some pretty harsh reality. Sad.
 
  • Have our license and registration papers in hand before he gets to the car, so we will not alarm him by reaching to where a hidden weapon might be; that applies to everyone!

I stopped doing that.

I had a cop ask what what I doing rifling around in the car, thinking I was trying to hide something.

Now I keep my hands in plain sight until he gets there, and I pull my license, registration, and insurance out of a visor organizer when asked.
 
They're is also, I think, a note of caution to THR members. Sovereign citizen types are an extreme, but it's good to take note that the law is not what you think it is or think it should be, it is what the legislatures write, the courts allow, and the police enforce. Your personal reading of the constitution may in fact be truer to the original intent of the authors, but it also couldn't be less relevant.
 
Despite what the BLM folks would tell you, over 99% of police actions that result in justified homicide are just that: justified.

While the Lame Stream Media projects officers and lawsmen as crooked scoundrels ready to pounce on blackey and first in line to gun down the spawn of “babies mamas” everywhere, the truth is in this GOD FEARING OLD CRACKER’s experience, the VAST, VAST majority of policemen and policegirls are honest hard working people.
 
Well stated OP and not much to add except for the following thoughts.

First, unless required to do so I don't recommend informing law enforcement that you have a firearm unless you are being asked to exit the vehicle. If that happens I would stated that I'm concealed carrying and let the officer direct how they would like me to proceed. No sense in elevating the situation by informing that you are armed prematurely.

My second thought is that it's best to keep your documents above the visor and keep them organized. Rummaging around in the dash or the center console looks much more like someone trying to hide something or reach for a gun than the visor.

My third thought is that for a simple traffic stop I think it's foolish to go overboard on the whole remain silent issue. Yes, it's our right but that doesn't always mean we have to invoke it. For a petty traffic stop I'd keep it courteous and non confrontational. If they started asking more serious questions then at some point I'd stop talking but I'd do so in a polite manner.
 
It was drilled into us in handgun carry permit class.
_ Hands visible as officer approaches car, preferably both on top of the steering wheel.
_ No furtive movements that could be misconstrued as hiding evidence or preparing to fight.

There is no point to be gained by escalating what can be stressful situation. It's as stuck on stupid as driving at night and refusing to dim your headlights because the oncoming driver has his on bright.
 
I pull way off so my passenger-side wheels are off the asphalt. This keeps the officer's butt out of traffic.
All windows lowered to prevent reflection and allow easy visibility. Engine remains completely turned-off.
 
I cannot imagine what he might have been thinking.

His last thought and it wasn’t a smart one. I wonder if family was on the phone to hear him kill himself.

Good Lord! One does not draw a gun on an arresting officer.

Even less likely when more of them have already been called to the location of an agitator. Sounds like suicide by cop though. Surly “they” were all in much better positions to engage him than he was, he probably couldn’t even see all of

Something already had them single you out if you find yourself in the encounter. If you do not wish to remain in said encounter and do not wish it to escalate, show hands, move slowly (if you need to reach for something they ask for, tell them that before you move), “yes/no sir.” Are acceptable answers to questions. You can call someone to cuss about your ticket later vs have them plan your funeral.

Reminds me of this one.

 
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The following is bad advice!!!
"Have our license and registration papers in hand before he gets to the car, so we will not alarm him by reaching to where a hidden weapon might be; that applies to everyone!"

I stopped doing that.

I had a cop ask what what I doing rifling around in the car, thinking I was trying to hide something.

Now I keep my hands in plain sight until he gets there, and I pull my license, registration, and insurance out of a visor organizer when asked.

+1 Do not make furtive movements while the officer is walking up to you vehicle. Turn off your vehicle, lower your window, and keep your hands on the steering wheel. Wait for the officer to instruct you to get your license, registration, and proof of insurance.

Research / know in advance what states have a "Duty to Inform" law in place that requires a CCW carrier to notify LE that they are licensed to carry a firearm and are carrying.
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/terminology/general-terms/duty-to-inform/

I live in Missouri and travel to Arkansas frequently. Arkansas is a "Duty to Inform" state. Missouri is not.


I got pulled over in Missouri, a couple months ago in my Jeep Wrangler. 1st time in 20+ years. I pulled off the road, turned off my engine, rolled down my driver's side window completely, and had both hands on the steering wheel when the officer walked up. The officer was wearing blue jeans, a t-shirt with a body armor over it. A 2nd officer was similarly dressed at my passenger window. My windows in the Jeep are manual, I'm not going to reach across the passenger seat to roll down that window.

The officer asked me the famous old question "Do you know why I pulled you over?" I said "Speeding would be my guess, but I couldn't have been doing more than 3 mph over just now."

The officer said "You were doing 45 in a 30." I said "No way really?" He's like "yeah I've been following since the speed limit changed at the entrance sign to the city." I said "You got me there! I missed it" He then asked me for my drivers license (wallet in back pocket), registration, and proof of insurance (both in the glove box), which I provided.

He went back to his car, ran my info, came back to my window and said "Slow down!" and let me go without ticket and no written warning. I was in the wrong and would've accepted a ticket.

I was carrying. However, firearms never came up in our discussion. He didn't ask and I didn't volunteer.
 
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