What does "condition one" mean to you?

[MachIVshooter]

Per a debate in another thread, gathering a consensus. Since we are limited in characters in the poll options, I will elaborate.

Option 1 would disqualify any DAO, TDA with decocker safety or striker fired gun from being considered "condition 1" ever, regardless of whether it has a round in the chamber or safeties present, engaged or disengaged. This means that only SA or DA guns with a manual safety that engage with the hammer cocked can be "condition one".

For option 2; "not requiring manual cocking to fire" means that the gun is one of the following:

Double action only, with or without safety, engaged or disengaged
Traditional Double Action with hammer down, safety engaged or disengaged
Traditional Double Action with hammer cocked and safety engaged
Striker fired DA type with or without safety, engaged or disengaged
Striker fired SA type with safety engaged
Single Action that is cocked & locked

In other words, no need to thumb the hammer before firing because it is either not required or it is already cocked. Option 2 includes DA revolvers as well.

 

[Rat Robb]

As I have come to understand it,

Condition 1 - Cocked and chambered, safety optional

Condition 2 - Chambered and Decocked. In a 1911, one would have to cock it to fire, but on a most semi-autos, you'll find a DA trigger only or a DA/SA trigger. This is the condition most revolvers are carried in.

Condition 3 - Unchambered, same in all pistols. I guess if you have a dead hole in a cylinder, this could be used in a revolver

-Robb

 

[MachIVshooter]

As I have come to understand it,

Condition 1 - Cocked and chambered, safety optional

As I know it, safety would have to be engaged for C1 if the gun is single action only or double action with the hammer cocked. It is optional if the gun has a double action function that is being used. A 1911 or other firearm that has the hammer fully cocked is "condition zero" when the safety is disengaged.

Also according to the way I learned it, a double action gun can never really be in condition 2, since there is no need to cock the hammer.

 

[Rat Robb]

As I know it, safety would have to be engaged for C1 if the gun is single action only or double action with the hammer cocked. It is optional if the gun has a double action function that is being used. A 1911 or other firearm that has the hammer fully cocked is "condition zero" when the safety is disengaged.

Also according to the way I learned it, a double action gun can never really be in condition 2, since there is no need to cock the hammer.

On a Sig there is no safety and you could carried it cocked, if I'm understanding you correctly. Also, Ive never heard of Condition 0

-Robb

 

[Rat Robb]

http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm

Google saves the day and I learned something today. Time to go to bed, lol

-Robb

 

[MachIVshooter]

On a Sig there is no safety and you could carried it cocked, if I'm understanding you correctly. Also, Ive never heard of Condition 0

No, a decock only or safety decocker gun with no cocked & locked option is condition zero when the hammer is cocked, same as a SA with the safety disengaged

Basically, condition one is maximum readiness that is safe for carry. With a DA only, traditional DA with hammer down, DA revolver with hammer down or DA type striker fired gun, the longer, heavier trigger pull renders them safe to carry without a manual safety engaged.

When I say DA type striker gun, I am also referring to Glock type actions, in which the striker is partially cocked by the slide, but requires trigger pull to travel fully back and release. Glock calls it "safe action". Most striker guns are of this variety, save for many rimfires, which have a SA striker, and but a handful of true DAO striker guns.

 

[horsemen61]

Condition one "Cocked and Locked" was How I was taught

 

[Sergei Mosin]

When Col. Cooper defined the "conditions of readiness," he was speaking specifically to the 1911-pattern pistol. He was not speaking of DA/SA "crunchentickers," DA revolvers, or anything but the 1911.

The conditions he defined are as follows, lifted from http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm :

Condition 0 – A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
Condition 1 – Also known as “cocked and locked,” means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
Condition 2 – A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
Condition 3 – The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.
Condition 4 – The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.

Now, it's easy enough to apply all of these conditions to other SA or even DA/SA hammer-fired automatics, if equipped with manual safeties. These would include the Browning Hi Power, certain models of the CZ 75, SAO SIGs, H&K USP models equipped with manual safeties, and some others. It can also be extended to striker-fired pistols so long as they are equipped with manual safeties without requiring too much in the way of mental gymnastics - for instance, S&W M&P pistols can be fitted with a manual safety. Although the M&P lacks a hammer, it requires only that the safety be disengaged so that it is ready to fire with only a pull of the trigger.

Once we get away from pistols with manual safeties, it requires some real contortions to make the conditions fit. It's easy to see where a DA/SA handgun fits when the hammer is cocked - but there isn't any condition to cover a weapon in DA mode, be it DA/SA with the hammer decocked or DAO. There's no safety, so it can't be in Condition One. But it's not exactly Condition Zero, because it takes more than just a single-action pull to make the weapon fire. Cooper's conditions don't cover it. I guess we could make up something - call it Condition 0.5 if you like. Maybe a pistol such as the Beretta 92, decocked with the safety applied, would be in Condition 1.5.

Then there's the striker-fired pistol lacking a manual safety and a heavy DA pull - typified by the Glock. No safety - it can't be in Condition One. All it takes to fire the weapon is a relatively light trigger pull. The Glock, to my mind, is in Condition Zero from the moment a round is chambered. And that's why some folks don't like carrying them.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Condition one "Cocked and Locked" was How I was taught

And that is the gospel of Col. Cooper.

However, if you wish to use the "conditions of readiness" for instruction, you need to be adaptive, because not everyone (very few people, in fact) take a class with a single action autoloader or DA with a C&L function. We see a boatload of Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, Kahrs and other common duty/carry guns, relatively few 1911s, BHPs or CZ75s.

If someone can articulate a better way to explain readiness than an adaptation of Cooper's doctrine, I'm all ears.

 

[Zerodefect]

Nothing. Silly obsolete terminology. I prefer condition: Rooster Zebra Cheese Sandwich.

LOL.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Sergei, while I generally agree with your thoughtful post, consider the complication in teaching new shooters when you start adding in the .5s and exceptions. Talk about "mental gymnastics" for newcomers who are just learning manual of arms.

And despite the feelings of some that Glocks or other safety-less striker pistols aren't safe to carry, they really are. Glocks have a light, short trigger pull compared to a true DAO like a S&W 4586, but are far from the very short and usually quite light pull of a 1911 or a cocked CZ75. Yeah, there are Glocks and others out there with very light disconnectors and no safety. And I wouldn't carry one. My Glock is 5 lbs even with 0.39" travel. In contrast, my TDA Baby Eagle trigger requires only 3.6 lbs to move 0.18" and release the cocked hammer.

So, as such, I teach the way I was taught, with condition 1 being the greatest level of readiness that is safe for carry. With my SA guns, that is C&L. With TDA, that is hammer down, safety off. With DAO or striker fired, it is without safety or safety disengaged. With revolvers, it simply means loaded.

 

[el Godfather]

Condition 1
Round chambered with no need for cocking before firing. Manual safety not relevant. Decock on DA/SA gun in not relevant, on 1911 it is.

 

[rondog]

Matter of personal choice I reckon. My 1911 cocked and locked, Con 1. But one of my striker-fired autos, chambered and ready with safety engaged, I'd also consider that Con 1. My DA revolvers, loaded and ready to fire, also Con 1. IN MY OPINION ONLY!

To me, if it's ready for immediate use with no fuss other than a manual safety, I consider it Con 1. JMHO.

 

[9mmepiphany]

And that is the gospel of Col. Cooper.

However, if you wish to use the "conditions of readiness" for instruction, you need to be adaptive, because not everyone (very few people, in fact) take a class with a single action autoloader or DA with a C&L function. We see a boatload of Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, Kahrs and other common duty/carry guns, relatively few 1911s, BHPs or CZ75s.

That gospel was only intended for the 1911 and we use the conditions almost as a shorthand to make ourselves understood in writing.

For folks who either weren't brought up with the 1911 or aren't using one while being instructed, it is senseless to even teach them as it serves no purpose

If someone can articulate a better way to explain readiness than an adaptation of Cooper's doctrine, I'm all ears.

This is easy and has been taught for many years.

A non- SAO gun is either cocked or it isn't...after all, we always consider them loaded...so readiness is always with the hammer down. If you have a a student with a SAO gun, I still wouldn't teach the conditions. They would just apply the safety when loaded and the hammer cocked. A common term used is Load and Holster a Safe Gun. That means apply the safety on a SAO or de-cock on a DA/SA

When you clear a gun..."Show clear"...on a cold range, you would 1) remove the magazine, 2) show an empty chamber, 3) lower the slide on that chamber, and 4) pull the trigger to drop the hammer/striker fully down {you don't use the de-cocker to lower a hammer when showing clear}

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Well, I voiced my opinions elsewhere but I'll add them here: Using the phrase Condition One describe a gun other than one with a hammer and safety is like explaining what granny-shifting is in car with an automatic. So far as I understand it was coined to describe the deployment of a single action auto. Obviously it can't be adapted easily to just any kind of gun. For example, C2 in a 1911 means the gun is a paperweight until you manually cock it, but in a SA/DA the gun will still fire if you pull the trigger real hard. But what is C2 in a Glock? How would you have the "hammer"/striker down on a live round?

I am starting to feel old!:banghead:

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Source:

http://doni.daps.dla.mil/Directives...0 Training and Readiness Services/3591.1F.pdf

See Enclosure (3), Page 1


Condition 1: Safety on (M9), slide forward, magazine inserted, round in chamber, hammer forward.

NOTE: For the 1911 - Safety on, slide forward, magazine inserted, round in chamber, hammer cocked. Often refered to as "cocked and locked".

Condition 2: N/A for M9 or M11

Condition 3: Safety on (M9), slide forward, magazine inserted, chamber empty.

Condition 4: Slide forward, magazine removed, chamber empty.

 

[TestPilot]

Worthless jargon that the world would be a better place without, right along the lines of "type # malfunction" nonsense.

That's what it means to me.

 

[1911Tuner]

When Col. Cooper defined the "conditions of readiness," he was speaking specifically to the 1911-pattern pistol. He was not speaking of DA/SA "crunchentickers," DA revolvers, or anything but the 1911.

While true in this context, it could also apply to the US service rifles, even though they have no provision for Cooper's Condition 2. They did have a provision for lowering the hammer by positioning the bolt just right...pulling the trigger...and easing the bolt forward for Condition 3. I doubt that it was used much, though.

 

[TarDevil]

If one wants to make up their own set of readiness criteria, it's a free world. But Cooper coined this one and defined Condition 1 as C & L.

 

[F-111 John]

What about condition Butterscotch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pU2IOTEZlU

 

[JTQ]

I've always understood those numbered Conditions of Readiness to apply to single action autos such as the 1911 or Hi-Power, or at least those that could be operated as single action auto like the CZ75 or the Taurus PT-92.

It does not apply to striker fired pistols or guns without a manual safety. Those guns can be carried with a round chambered, but they would not be considered to be carried in Condition 1.

 

[PabloJ]

It means nothing to be because I do not like 1911 or BHP type pistols. Never cared for loaded chamber cocked hammer safety on concept.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Outdated terminology.

 

[bannockburn]

Condition One to me means Cocked and Locked with any single action semi-auto with a round in the chamber and the manual safety engaged. It may be outdated terminology but it works fine by me with my M1911s and my Browning Hi-Power.

 

[Tirod]

It means nothing to be because I do not like 1911 or BHP type pistols. Never cared for loaded chamber cocked hammer safety on concept.

I didn't either - but military practice these days (not 1911,) means if you carry a loaded pistol on duty, it's cocked and locked. I had 6 months duty with a M9 in daily carry, and voila, I got used to it real quick in a duty belt rig.

What I found was that I didn't care for the DA in my Glock or LCP. The objection that it was a "live" trigger finally bubbled up to my conscious mind when I finally confronted myself about why I would not carry with a round in the chamber. A Con 1 SA with safety, no problem, a DA with chambered round, nope.

In terms of simply using the gun, a "safe" action trigger was Glock's answer to having it function the same as a DA revolver - his target market. Therefore, it was hard for the LEO trainer community to gripe much about it being any different than was was already being used - a DA revolver with no safety. That sidelined one marketing barrier.

The carry community as a whole seems to be divided about it - either a SA cocked and locked, or a DA with no safety seems to sum up the two different ways to do it. Each has their advantages and disadvantages.

The Con 1 gun has to have the safety swiped off to function, a very bad thing when nanoseconds are the measure of survival, according to some. In real life, the safety is usually off long before the sights even come on to the target. And with some practice, it's not a huge detriment due to some loss of "fine motor control." That really depends on when the adrenaline dump is actually affecting you, with training and practice, it comes after you pull the trigger, or even after the entire incident. Some folks insist otherwise, but they are trying to manipulate a scenario to make their point.

On the DA side, is it better to have a long, heavey trigger pull as those precious nanoseconds tick away while the sights are already on target? It does take longer to pull a DA trigger, in terms of actual travel, and the internal processes going on. That never seems to get discussed.

The reality is that if nanoseconds are what are on the line, it's already a disaster from the awareness perspective. Basically, you had no clue when you should have. There are very few split second situations that save a life, and millions of displays of a firearm that defuse situations - the perps immediately leave for greener pastures.

When it comes down to a Con 1 vs DA conversation, what I really see is the typical social jockeying that comes when a crowd of young adult males are setting up their pecking order. The actual details of the subject are simply a tool to raise their social rank.

Again, reality says either type gun wins matches in competition, which at least is a documented and repeatable experiment to determine things. Regardless which is chosen, the trained and practiced individual usually comes out on top when skill levels are compared. That is more important than which gun is used, and a really experienced shooter can use either. It's also arguable that the multi gun shooter could hold his own against either single gun guy - they both have more experience in their platform, he divided his time.

I tried DA's, I found I already had a lot more experience with service automatic actions and had better habits and handling SA with safety. I decided not to throw that away this late in life, and that's why you see a lot of older guys settled on the issue. It will change as time goes by, but one thing that can make it more difficult is having a grip challenge - carpal tunnel can cause DA gun use to be more difficult. That means a DA trigger is simply harder to use than it was before, and it can change the playing field whether the shooter likes it or not.

Therefore, long term, I wouldn't give up at least being familiar with SA's and safeties. Since most of us will never shoot the top 1% in competition, it's better we leave our options open - life can paint you into a corner.