Revised conditions of readiness

[RX-79G]

I'm not suggesting that these will catch on, but I think it is worth discussing since guns have changed since Cooper first came up with his conditions.

Condition Zero: Gun is cocked and unlocked, ready to fire as it would be mid-magazine. This applies to guns designed to be carried in some other condition.

Condition 0.5: Gun is unlocked and has a single action type trigger pull - shortish and 6 or less pounds, but was designed and intended to be carried that way. (PPQ, XD, Glock, VP9, etc.)

Condition 1: Cocked and locked or cocked and blocked (for guns with a slide safety). Requires two sequential but simple actions.

Condition 1.5: Hammer/striker/mainspring somehow partially cocked to achieve a trigger somewhere between Conditions 0.5 and 2. (Kahr, DAK, LEM V3, PX4 C, NY1, etc.)

Condition 2: Hammer or striker decocked, DA action trigger pull. DA/SA and true DAO.

Condition 2.4: Decocked and locked - safety on and hammer down, like on a Beretta 92FS. Belt and suspender approach - requires two sequential actions to fire.

Condition 2.6: Hammer decocked and SAO. This refers to carrying a single action pistol with the hammer down, where the only way to fire is to first cock the hammer with the thumb. Used to be more common, but still the designed way to carry a Beretta 950. Moved from Condition 2.

Condition 3: Chamber empty, generally requiring two hands to fire.

Condition 4: Gun empty.




The biggest problem with what I'm suggesting is that there would be some debate over what belongs in 0.5 vs 1.5. Cooper's Conditions of Readiness were primarily about how much work the marksman must do to hit the target, rather than an examination of the internal mechanism. If the trigger take up and break are most similar to a two stage single action trigger, then it probably should be in 0.5. If it has the length of a DA pull and or a weight somewhere closer to DA, than it should likely be in 1.5.


Again, not starting a revolution, just thinking about the Conditions and how they currently cause different weapons to be viewed somewhat unrealistically. They can also be viewed as a safety hierarchy, where higher numbers accurately reflect how much resistance to an ND the carrying condition affords.

 

[Ed Ames]

You don't need real numbers to enumerate. Whole numbers do the job with a lot less confusion.

Your 1 and 0.5 are functionally identical so 0.5 should be removed. 1.5 is irrelevant to readiness, so, again, kill it. Your condition 2 is again functionality identical to condition 1, so delete. I didn't actually read any further once you threw 2.4 out there because come on.

I don't think the readiness conditions can be viewed as a scale of likelihood of ND, which is probably why I don't see any value in subdividing things which are - from a readiness perspective - identical.

 

[RX-79G]

You're saying that there is no difference between a PPQ, a cocked and locked 1911 and a double action Beretta?

You're not rejecting my thoughts - those are Jeff Cooper's Conditions or Readiness.

 

[browningguy]

No thanks, just making things complicated isn't much fun for me.

If its got a safety I carry cocked and locked, if it's a striker fired or double action gun I carry it chambered.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Seems way over complicated to me.

My conditions are-

1. Cocked and unlocked w/ round in chamber (fits most pistols)

2. Cocked and locked w/ round in chamber (only pistols with a safety)

3. De-cocked and unlocked w/ round in chamber (certain pistols)

4. De-cocked and unlocked w/ NO round in chamber (fits most pistols)

 

[RX-79G]

Is a Glock cocked and unlocked or decocked?

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Is a Glock cocked and unlocked or decocked?

A Glock with a round in the chamber is cocked and, unless it has an aftermarket thumb safety it is "unlocked". Even if it did have an aftermarket safety it could still be cocked and unlocked, if the safety was off.

 

[Ed Ames]

You're saying that there is no difference between a PPQ, a cocked and locked 1911 and a double action Beretta.

Sorry, no, i meant zero but typed 1. There is no difference in readiness between a Glock/PPQ/XD, a cocked and UNLOCKed 1911, a CZ75 or other DA/SA that is decocked but unlocked, a loaded DA revolver, etc. All are a trigger pull away from going off. One action required.

Condition one requires two actions. For a 1911 that means safety off, pull trigger so it is commonly thought of as cocked and locked but some guns (e.g. Tokarev) are designed to use the hammer as the safety so I'd Jeff got this and condition two wrong. Hammer down on a loaded chamber, or a single action revolver hammer down next to a loaded chamber, is also condition one just for a different manual of arms.

Condition two... I already said Jeff got this wrong. What he should have had here, but doesn't because many guns including the 1911 don't allow it, is single action with hammer down and safety on. That requires three actions to fire...cock, unlock, pull trigger.

Condition three and four are storage conditions to me, so I'm not sure they have a place on a carry condition list. Unless weird laws give you no choice, you aren't going to carry with no magazine in the gun. I have heard people say that they carry without a round chambered but it kinda boggles the mind. If we include these, why not also include slide removed from frame, trigger lock installed/engaged, and so on?

 

[RX-79G]

I think Cooper was trying to reflect that it is harder to shoot a DA than a SA, which is why he made DA a higher number.


BTW everyone, I think my revisions are ridiculous as well. I wrote them mainly to illustrate that the old way of thinking about triggers and safety mechanisms were outmoded. What used to be DA vs SA, cocked vs uncocked is not a blurry continuum where trigger pulls on non-SA triggers can be found anywhere from 4 pounds to 12 with every weight in between. That requires a different way of looking at things.

 

[badkarmamib]

Simpler:

1) You just pull the trigger.

2) You have to disengage a safety and pull the trigger.

3) You have to chamber a round and pull the trigger.

4) You have to load the firearm and pull the trigger.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

The rise of the striker and DA/SA guns has changed the way guns function, but it's not really changed how you start them.

1. A tradition SA gun can only be fired after it has been manually cocked by slide or hand action.
   
2. A traditional DA gun could only be fired by pulling the trigger.
   
3. A DA/SA gun could be fired by a DA first pull, or a SA (action-powered) hammer drop thereafter. A few guns, like the CZ, let you do either with the same gun.
   
   Whether there is a safety lever matters most if you want to START from SA mode. (That's because firing pin blocks are a new safety feature -- and you can only make many of these guns fire by pulling the trigger all the way to the rear!)
   
   CZs let you safely start in SA model if you don't have a decocker model. SIGs are also DA/SA, but don't have safety levers; but they won't let you start from SA mode while retaining DA/SA functionality; they will let you decock. (SIG does make SA models, however, and they have a safety lever but no decocker.)
   
   Some guns offer both. Cooper was a SA advocate, and his "safety states" seem especially pertinent to guns based on that design approach. He first described those safety states before some newer models and functionality were introduced.​
4. With these newer guns, slide movement is required to partially charge the hammer spring or striker spring before the gun can be fired. Some call this approach "modified double action", but it might be just as correct to call it "modified single action."

Glock calls their version of this functionality "Safe Action." But in all such cases with nearly all of these guns, pulling the trigger won't do anything unless the slide has first been moved some distance. There is no second strike capability with those guns. There are also striker-fired guns, like Walthers, that can do it all, with safeties and decockers. I have a Lionheart LH9 that does it all: cocked and locked, double action, cocked with hammer down, and I can use the safety in any of those starting states.

All handguns now seem to be some variant of the four I defined above, and some offer the user a safety, others don't (ala Glock, some models of the S&W and FNH guns, etc.) There were modified double action guns around when Cooper was still alive, and he apparently didn't think it required a change in his original description of safety states.

Is a Glock cocked and unlocked or decocked?

That's called a "false choice." A Glock and many similar guns are neither cocked nor decocked (and "locked" isn't an option with some of them.) My hammer-fired S&W 4043 was similar -- it had a safety and a decocker, but I couldn't start from SA mode.

Some guns that are decocked are NOT fully decocked -- this is true whether the gun is hammer or striker fired. The trigger pull after decocking is lighter than if the hammer spring is fully released. These guns are all in that middle ground -- partially cocked (or more correctly, they have key springs partially charged). Some can be had with safety levers and some without.

Neither your version or Good ol Boy's version of "safety conditions" fully address the possible variables -- but I'd argue that safety states and how the gun functions are two different things.

Trying to make guns fit one fixed classification may be inappropriate.

.

 

[RX-79G]

Walt,

Which situation did my Conditions miss? All of the examples you listed I thought were covered by 1.5.

 

[C0untZer0]

I have 4 characters:

1) H
2) K
3) P
4) 7


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[RX-79G]

I'd put the P7 in Condition 2, because it doesn't require sequential steps to fire and has a decocked mainspring and striker, requiring 12 pounds of pressure to fire the first shot. You can treat it like Condition 1, but it really isn't.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Sorry, I mispoke (or, more correctly, mis-keyed.)

You covered nearly all of them, but you did so by trying to force general handgun ACTION TYPES onto Cooper's CARRY CONDITIONS.

Cooper was describing handgun readiness states -- but you seemed to be combining these two different aspects of handguns design and use into one list -- and doing so unnecessarily complicates things and ignored aspects of both lists/categorizations that ought not have been ignored.

It is important to understand the differences in the various action types, so I applaud that part of your effort. Here's what I think is important when looking at safety:

• Whether the gun is loaded and ready to fire.
• Whether it can be carried safely when loaded and ready to fire.
• Whether the gun is DAO or DA/SA, or SA (if for no other reasons that the trigger pulls are quite different, and most DAO guns have long trigger pulls that not everybody can deal with.
• Whether the gun is drop safe (i.e., has a firing pin block).
• If you are uncomfortable manually decocking a handgun, whether th gun has a decocker.

If we talk about action types, the DAO, SA, DA/SA, and Modified DA/Modified SA (with pre-tensioned springs) categories seem to describe what needs to be described

Using as you did, the gun's trigger weight or the amount of trigger movement required to make a weapon fire arguably isn't a good classification category -- as trigger weight is easily changed, and pull length can be adjusted by parts changes – ala SRT kits, etc - with some guns.

My SIG P228 has the SRT, and a friend's CZs have had a number of trigger mods that shorten and lighten the trigger pull.) Nothing about those guns' functionality or safety has really changed, but they are easier to use. They're both DA/SA guns, one with a decocker, and one with a frame-mounted safety.​

The biggest difference between guns with partially or tensioned striker/hammer springs and ones that aren't tensioned, is that the partially tensioned guns don't have a second-strike capability*. The slide must be racked if the round didn't go off when you pulled the trigger. If you know that up front, it's not a big deal: if the gun doesn't go boom, you rack the slide. Carry safety is not affected. Some of the partially tensioned gun have safeties on the frame, some of the slide, and some don't have safeties at all -- just decockers. (My FNS-40s don't have frame safeties, but others can be had with safeties.)

*As noted in comments following this one, at least one Taurus (Millenium Pro) and one variant of the Walther P99 have the restrike capability.) That is pretty rare, but there may be a few others.​

My Springfield Xdm Competition has a grip safety... I'm not crazy about it – but that gun is one of the best shooting .45s I've owned. Others like grip safeties. (ala 1911s.)

My Lionheart LH9 has a hinged hammer, which allows me to cock the hammer (as in SA mode), and then lower it. Even though the hammer has been cocked, I can then use the safety or ignore it.

In that mode, I have a two-stage trigger for the first shot only -- it's heavier than SA, but lighter than DA, and it's easily managed. Some years back, when I shot a lot of IDPA, I did that with my DaeWoo DP51 (basically the same gun) and loved it.​

Most DA/SA guns, nowadays, are equipped with decockers; darned few of them have safeties. The few that are so-equipped can be awkward to use; and almost none of them allow safe SA starts. If i remember correctly, my S&W 4006s would let you decock, and then you could engage the safety -- truly belt and suspender-type of safety insurance. (I think some of the H&K guns allowed cocked and locked but none were as easy to use as a 1911 or a CZ starting from SA mode; I've not owned an H&K gun.)

Addressing action types makes sense. And describing what you must do to use those different action types makes sense, but Cooper's CARRY CONDITIONS are probably best addressed separately from action types.

 

[Ed Ames]

The biggest difference between guns with partially or tensioned striker/hammer springs and ones that aren't tensioned, is that the partially tensioned guns don't have a second-strike capability.

That is not universally true. E.g. the Taurus Millennium Pros are partially tensioned striker fired guns with second strike.

 

[C0untZer0]

And what I discovered too is that the double-action trigger on the Taurus Millennium G2 is better than the single-action trigger.


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[Walt Sherrill]

The biggest difference between guns with partially or tensioned striker/hammer springs and ones that aren't tensioned, is that the partially tensioned guns don't have a second-strike capability.

That is not universally true. E.g. the Taurus Millennium Pros are partially tensioned striker fired guns with second strike.

Correction noted. (I was unfamiliar with the Taurus.) I was making a general statement and trying to keep it brief.

There are also variants of the Walther P99 variants that have that same ability. Like the Taurus Millenium Pro, at least one of those Walthers can revert from SA to DA if the round doesn't fire.

That functionality is pretty rare.

 

[MIL-DOT]

"I'm not suggesting that these will catch on, but I think it is worth discussing since guns have changed since Cooper first came up with his conditions.."




As much as the expression always annoyed me, in this instance, it really fits. So.......
"WOW.........just.......wow".
By the way, you left out the condition UNDER zero.......
"Condition zero-negative point-5: GLOCK" !!

 

[tkroenlein]

I think there should be only 2 conditions to describe a defensive firearm:

Condition: Ready to Go

OR

Condition: Will probably get shot trying to get my gun Ready to Go.


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[MICHAEL T]

I think there should be only 2 conditions to describe a defensive firearm:

Condition: Ready to Go

OR

Condition: Will probably get shot trying to get my gun Ready to Go.

Thats the best answer . All my pistols are loaded and ready to go .

 

[RX-79G]

Correction noted. (I was unfamiliar with the Taurus.) I was making a general statement and trying to keep it brief.

There are also variants of the Walther P99 variants that have that same ability. Like the Taurus Millenium Pro, at least one of those Walthers can revert from SA to DA if the round doesn't fire.

That functionality is pretty rare.

SIG DAK is also pre-cocked DA with second strike.


There is no P99 that works like that. People mistakenly believe they can carry a P99 cocked, but that isn't what Walther intended. It is just DA/SA pistol.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

The rise of the striker and DA/SA guns has changed the way guns function, but it's not really changed how you start them.

1. A tradition SA gun can only be fired after it has been manually cocked by slide or hand action.
   
2. A traditional DA gun could only be fired by pulling the trigger.
   
3. A DA/SA gun could be fired by a DA first pull, or a SA (action-powered) hammer drop thereafter. A few guns, like the CZ, let you do either with the same gun.
   
   Whether there is a safety lever matters most if you want to START from SA mode. (That's because firing pin blocks are a new safety feature -- and you can only make many of these guns fire by pulling the trigger all the way to the rear!)
   
   CZs let you safely start in SA model if you don't have a decocker model. SIGs are also DA/SA, but don't have safety levers; but they won't let you start from SA mode while retaining DA/SA functionality; they will let you decock. (SIG does make SA models, however, and they have a safety lever but no decocker.)
   
   Some guns offer both. Cooper was a SA advocate, and his "safety states" seem especially pertinent to guns based on that design approach. He first described those safety states before some newer models and functionality were introduced.​
4. With these newer guns, slide movement is required to partially charge the hammer spring or striker spring before the gun can be fired. Some call this approach "modified double action", but it might be just as correct to call it "modified single action."

Glock calls their version of this functionality "Safe Action." But in all such cases with nearly all of these guns, pulling the trigger won't do anything unless the slide has first been moved some distance. There is no second strike capability with those guns. There are also striker-fired guns, like Walthers, that can do it all, with safeties and decockers. I have a Lionheart LH9 that does it all: cocked and locked, double action, cocked with hammer down, and I can use the safety in any of those starting states.

All handguns now seem to be some variant of the four I defined above, and some offer the user a safety, others don't (ala Glock, some models of the S&W and FNH guns, etc.) There were modified double action guns around when Cooper was still alive, and he apparently didn't think it required a change in his original description of safety states.



That's called a "false choice." A Glock and many similar guns are neither cocked nor decocked (and "locked" isn't an option with some of them.) My hammer-fired S&W 4043 was similar -- it had a safety and a decocker, but I couldn't start from SA mode.

Some guns that are decocked are NOT fully decocked -- this is true whether the gun is hammer or striker fired. The trigger pull after decocking is lighter than if the hammer spring is fully released. These guns are all in that middle ground -- partially cocked (or more correctly, they have key springs partially charged). Some can be had with safety levers and some without.

Neither your version or Good ol Boy's version of "safety conditions" fully address the possible variables -- but I'd argue that safety states and how the gun functions are two different things.

Trying to make guns fit one fixed classification may be inappropriate.

.

I'm not claiming to be a know-it-all by any means, actually just the opposite. I'm pleading ignorance here.

Please list a pistol and explain how/why it does not fall under one of the 4 conditions I mentioned. I would suggest maybe reading my above post again.

I haven't shot everything under the sun so I'm anxious to get schooled here, if there is anything to be learned.

 

[FL-NC]

I spent 23 years in military special operations, but I never really learned these "conditions" until I got out and became a contractor. We had a standard in every unit I was in for how every weapon (pistols, M4, machine guns, etc.) was to be carried. The only other option was CLEARED AND MADE SAFE. In the M9 days, round was chambered, on fire. For Glock, round was chambered. For 1911, round chambered, hammer cocked, on safe. So whatever conditions those are.

 

[tahunua001]

no Offense but I think you're way over thinking it. the way I've always made sense of it, and it got me through boot camp, subsequent training, and has served me well enough when teaching others about readiness conditions: each condition's number reflects the number of actions which must be taken to engage your target.

0. because the weapon is loaded, round in chamber, and safety off, all you have to do is pull the trigger.

1. weapon is loaded, round in chamber, all it takes is one action before you are ready to engage, and that is to disengage safety.

2. gun is loaded, safety on, hammer is down. you have two actions that must be taken before you can engage: cock, and unlock, most firearms this does not apply to.

3. you have ammo in reserve but none in the chamber and safety is on. you have to take 3 actions before you can engage, cock the hammer/striker, load a round, and take the safety off. now even though the act of chambering a round also cocks the hammer/striker, it still does not negate the fact that these conditions still must be met before you can engage.

4. completely empty, safety on. in order to bring the gun to condition 0 you must perform 4 actions, load the mag, place a round in the chamber, cock, and unlock.

that is why the conditions are there. there is no .5 there is no halfway between cocked and uncocked, half cocked on any gun that has a half cock position operates the same as hammer down and locked. a DAO gun still requires no action on your part to engage the target other than squeezing the trigger, same with DAO, they don't need their own .5 condition. now I'm sure that there are people that have studied cooper in detail and will tell me that I am completely wrong, but that is just the way that my brain works, it's how I've made sense of it, and how I've remembered and taught it to students so that they can also make sense of it and remember it in turn.