What Happened to this Brass?
- Thread starter Barmcd
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Blue68f100
Member
Un-supported chamber. The early Glocks did that. But any (mfg) chamber that is not fully supported will cause that.
AJC1
Member
Exactly...
Hugger-4641
Member
Yes. Glocks, Colt 1911's, some Baretta's and probably some I'm not aware have an unsupported chamber near the base that causes this. Not a concern for most people unless you handload.
LiveLife
Member
Could you take a picture of primer indent? (Glock striker indent is very characteristic rectangle)
I haven't seen "Glocked" brass for quite a few years and when I do see "overly expanded" brass in 9mm/40S&W, they usually have non-Glock striker indent of round firing pin/striker imprint.
Perhaps Gen1/2 40S&W Glocks as by Gen3, Glock had already addressed case base support issue and thightened the chamber dimensions. Gen3 Glock barrel compared to Lone Wolf 40S&W barrel showing good case base support to not induce "guppy belly/Glocked" over expansion (Flared Glock chamber opening tightens right against case immediately past the ramp).
But OP is asking about 9mm case and since Gen1, 9mm Glock barrels had excellent case base support on par with various KKM/Lone Wolf/Tactical Kinetics/BCA 9mm barrels.
9mm Glock barrel compared to Lone Wolf barrel (KKM/BCA/Tactical Kinetics have comparable case base support) to not induce "guppy belly/Glocked" over expansion unless fired out of battery.
Another cause of "guppy belly" 9mm brass is from proliferation of USPSA 9mm Major brass where 9mm brass are shot once and left on the ground/range floor due to overly expanded case base (Think thinned case wall). Sadly these 9mm Major brass are mixed in with other 9mm brass for collection and distribution. These days, when I come across a 9mm brass that requires extra effort to resize, I will suspect 9mm Major brass and will check with tightest chamber barrel I have and if case failed, I will attempt to resize again but will toss for recycling if case fails second resizing.
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Hugger-4641
Member
I didn't know about this, might explain some I run across.
Sorry, I hand deprime the brass as soon as I get home so the primer is long gone. I had cleaned and stored the brass so I don’t even know when I picked it up. Probably within the last two years.Could you take a picture of primer indent? (Glock striker indent is very characteristic rectangle)
I haven't seen "Glocked" brass for quite a few years and when I do see "overly expanded" brass in 9mm/40S&W, they usually have non-Glock striker indent of round firing pin/striker imprint.
Perhaps Gen1/2 40S&W Glocks as by Gen3, Glock had already addressed case base support issue and thightened the chamber dimensions. Gen3 Glock barrel compared to Lone Wolf 40S&W barrel showing good case base support to not induce "guppy belly/Glocked" over expansion (Flared Glock chamber opening tightens right against case immediately past the ramp).
But OP is asking about 9mm case and since Gen1, 9mm Glock barrels had excellent case base support on par with various KKM/Lone Wolf/Tactical Kinetics/BCA 9mm barrels.
9mm Glock barrel compared to Lone Wolf barrel (KKM/BCA/Tactical Kinetics have comparable case base support) to not induce "guppy belly/Glocked" over expansion unless fired out of battery.
Another cause of "guppy belly" 9mm brass is from proliferation of USPSA 9mm Major brass where 9mm brass are shot once and left on the ground/range floor due to overly expanded case base (Think thinned case wall). Sadly these 9mm Major brass are mixed in with other 9mm brass for collection and distribution. These days, when I come across a 9mm brass that requires extra effort to resize, I will suspect 9mm Major brass and will check with tightest chamber barrel I have and if case failed, I will attempt to resize again but will toss for recycling if case fails second resizing.
It's Aguila brass. I was putting it in a 9mm reloading tray and it wouldn’t fit. I’ve never had that happen before. I tossed it, 9mm isn’t worth the aggrvation.
Rimfire McNutjob
Member
Reloaders that have to deal with this issue in volume will employ a roll sizer to fix it. I think DoubleAlpha sells one ... expensive.
JKP
Member
I bulge bust all my 9mm brass before reloading. I can do it faster than dropping each one in a case guage. With both my SA 1911's and my Canik having tighter chambers than my other 9's, it just makes every round (almost) chamber. I would like to have a roll sizer, but they are expensive. Every once in a while, I'll get one that is too bulged to go through the buster and get tossed. I wonder what they were shot in.
jmorris
Member
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I own a couple case pro roll sizers but the case in the OP is ready for the scrap bin. I'm not sure how many glocks I own but none of them bulge brass as bad as some of our SMG's and they don't do that to brass.
Yep.
Bazoo
Member
That's the most excessively bulged automatic brass I've ever seen.
e3mrk1
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- Apr 30, 2023
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- 12
That,s the famous Glock Bulge from a unsupported Chamber and that is one big reason Glock says not to shoot reloads out of a Glock. My brand new Glock 20 in 10mm did that so I put a KKM Barrel in it and that solved the problem. You can also buy a Bulge Buster die that removes the Bulge but I think it would be iffy at best to shoot it from a stock Glock Barrel.
LiveLife
Member
Please, this is the "High Road" and let's not perpetuate incorrect information that's already been myth busted several times.
Since Gen3, even the most common "perpetrator" of so called 40S&W "Glock bulge/Guppy belly" brass did not have characteristic Glock striker indents on primer cups when asked to post pictures like in post #5 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/what-happened-to-this-brass.929906/#post-12884020
In the recent decade, whenever I encountered overtly expanded 40S&W cases (Overly expanded, not guppy bellied), they always showed round primer indent indicating they were fired in non-Glock barrels/pistols.
That's same legal disclaimer many gun manufacturers run. What do thousands of match shooters around the world shoot in their Glocks on a weekly basis, even Team Glock? That's right, mostly reloads.
If your brand new 10mm Glock 20 caused guppy bellied brass as shown in OP, I sure would like to see pictures to be a believer.
Picture of 10mm guppy bellied/smiley case you replied to was not shot in a Glock rather FN 510 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...heck-for-pressure-signs.922701/#post-12708947
Incorrect again. Bulge Buster is not a die but a kit that uses Lee Factory Crimp Die body to push-through resize the base of case that typical resizing die/carbide ring won't reach - https://leeprecision.com/case-conditioning-tools-lee-bulge-buster-kit
And no, Bulge Buster Kit is not available for 9mm because of the tapered case and this thread discussion is about guppy bellied 9mm cases.
OP is discussing 9mm and KKM barrel won't do much for case base expansion as my KKM barrel (Along with Lone Wolf, Tactical Kinetics and BCA barrels) has comparable case base support as factory Glock barrel and it's been that way since Gen1
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Blue68f100
Member
Redding also makes a push through die for the 40 cal G-Rx
https://www.redding-reloading.com/i...article&Itemid=15&id=121:g-rx-carbide-die-set
https://www.redding-reloading.com/i...article&Itemid=15&id=121:g-rx-carbide-die-set
Hugger-4641
Member
If you want to get technical, almost no semi auto pistols have fully supported chambers. But from what I've read, earlier Glocks and Berettas had some of the "loosest" chambers at feed ramp and extractor areas and thus experienced the "glock bulge" more than some others. The bulged cases I've encountered have not been expanded evenly, but have the "guppy belly". I have seen these in 9mm brass I've bought and always thought it was due to being shot in a glock or other "unsupported " chamber. I do have a way to fix these in 9mm using my bulge buster kit with a different die , not with the 9mm factory crimp die.
After learning from @LiveLife about 9mm major brass being a possible culprit, I'm wondering if its even worth the effort to fix these cases. Considering how plentiful 9mm ammo is at the moment, I'm not even handloading it right now. Factory target ammo is plentiful and at $13/box I can't do it much cheaper.
I haven't noticed yet, but I'm guessing that removing that bulge is over working the brass some. So my presumption now is that those cases may be more likely to fail in the future with max or near max pressure loads compared to normal cases.
What are your thoughts on this @LiveLife?
After learning from @LiveLife about 9mm major brass being a possible culprit, I'm wondering if its even worth the effort to fix these cases. Considering how plentiful 9mm ammo is at the moment, I'm not even handloading it right now. Factory target ammo is plentiful and at $13/box I can't do it much cheaper.
I haven't noticed yet, but I'm guessing that removing that bulge is over working the brass some. So my presumption now is that those cases may be more likely to fail in the future with max or near max pressure loads compared to normal cases.
What are your thoughts on this @LiveLife?
LiveLife
Member
To me, "overly expanded" translates to "thinning" of case wall. Once brass case wall has thinned, no amount of push through resizing or even roll sizing is going to make the case wall thicker again ... Resized case length will likely get longer instead.
Reason why USPSA match shooters will use 9mm cases for 9mm Major loads once and leave them on the ground/range floor is THEY KNOW the case base has overly expanded, thinning the case wall thus weakening it. To reload these overly expanded cases again at 9mm Major velocities means risking case base blowout/case wall failure.
If I see ANY guppy bellied case (Expansion at case base), it will go straight to recycle bin. If I see OVERLY EXPANDED case where middle of case neck has expanded (That part of case will be supported by chamber wall when reloaded and shot) or experience particularly increased resizing effort, I may suspect 9mm Major brass and will test in barrel with tightest chamber. If resized case fails the barrel, I will attempt to resize second time; but if resized case fails the barrel the second time, it will go to the recycle bin.
Now for 40S&W, which was my USPSA match caliber after I switched from 45ACP/9mm.
While some of the match shooters used G-Rx/Bulge Buster kit to resize portion of case base their resizing dies wouldn't reach, I found Lee resizing die to resize cases to smaller OD and further down towards case base than Dillon/RCBS dies (I know some shooters who ground down the top of shellplate to do this).
I used Lone Wolf 40S&W barrels along with 40-9mm conversion barrels for practice and LW 40S&W chambers were tightest I have seen. Most of brass resized with Lee resizing dies passed the LW 40S&W chamber and any that did not were recycled. I had very few resized brass that failed the tight LW chamber.
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Hugger-4641
Member
Yep, this is the conclusion I've come to. I guess it's good that I have a way to remove the bulge if I really needed to , but I won't be saving any more of these cases.
Captain*kirk
Member
I reload .380 and the brass will pretty much do the same thing. I can always tell if it's Glock brass that gets mixed in with mine and I throw it away. Not worth messing with.
Often guys doing a custom ramp to make a semiauto feed reliably will remove a bit too much metal and end up with cases looking like the picture shown. Normally doesn't cause any safety issues, but will reduce case life if you keep reloading the brass and shooting it in that same gun.
What do you use to bulge bust 9mm??
I have read of some using a 9mm MAKROV SIZING DIE, removing the de-prime pin, and pushing 9mm case thru the die.
...Or push the case completely into the die and knock it out via a punch from the top.
Lee Carbide Sizer Die 9x18mm (9mm Makarov)
Lee Precision has been making high quality reloading equipment for over 50 years. Lee Carbide Sizing Dies are great for straight wall cartridge cases....
www.midwayusa.com
Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die 9x18mm (9mm Makarov)
The Lee Precision Carbide Factory Crimp Die is designed to give reloaders the perfect crimp on each round of reloaded ammunition. The Factory Crimp Die...
www.midwayusa.com
What's your method?
.
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Due to an Army coverup over a century old, and PO Ackley, both of whom promoted the idea that cases were strong and actions were weak. The Army to hide the problems of burnt steel in their "single heat" 1903 receivers, and PO Ackley was selling his straight case wildcats and claiming the high velocities he was reporting was due to the cartridge case reducing "bolt thrust". The first was a coverup, the second snake oil. Due to the influence and prestige of these authorities, the shooting community has been mislead from the fundamental fact that the weakest item in cartridges guns, is the cartridge. Case head support is critical as brass is weaker than the chamber that holds it. And yet, it is very hard to design a magazine fed mechanism that does not have some case head sticking out the breech. Glock shooters have reported for decades blown case heads due to lack of cartridge case head support. Glocks have polymer frames, and polymer frames will absolutely break when gas from a blown case head goes down the magazine well.
If your pistol is showing that case head bulge, as shown above, cut your loads. If it is factory ammunition, stop shooting that stuff before it breaks your pistol.
Even though this is a 45 ACP firing AMERC, I hope you get the idea of how things can end badly with a blown case head in a polymer pistol
If your pistol is showing that case head bulge, as shown above, cut your loads. If it is factory ammunition, stop shooting that stuff before it breaks your pistol.
Even though this is a 45 ACP firing AMERC, I hope you get the idea of how things can end badly with a blown case head in a polymer pistol
Hugger-4641
Member
Yes, this is what I do. I run them thru a Makarov die, but I push them inverted, base first thru the die. Primed or not doesn't matter this way, but you cannot do this with loaded rds. I've bulge busted loaded 40sw and 10mm rds, and I have done a couple 9mm, but the force I have to use getting the 9mm thru the die is too sketchy for me with a loaded rd. If something slips , I don't need a kaboom on my bench.
GeoDudeFlorida
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- Dec 1, 2020
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- 11,126
I have yet to encounter a 9mm case with both a “guppy” and a Glock striker marked primer. Nearly every guppy case I’ve seen had a round firing pin strike and a flattened primer face.
I put guppy cases in the Makarov pile to be cut down into 9Mak
I put guppy cases in the Makarov pile to be cut down into 9Mak
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