What If Florida Got Open Carry?

[JQP]

Also I was thinking if we got open carry, maybe carrying what I call "California Style," where it's unloaded with the slide back

Why not add a trigger lock to the mix, too?

 

[oneounceload]

I guess I don't get the desire for open carry - IMO, it identifies you as a great source for a gun if a band of ne'er-do-wells want it.What's the big deal about CCW?

 

[Rvrfshr]

Open Carry

Although there are a few circumstances where open carry would be useful, I believe that this is an invitation for a tragic accident to happen. Imagine people showing off their piece and it "accidentally" injuring or killing some curious, or innocent bystander. We should have the right to OC, but use this judiciously.

I don't think the gunslinger appearance does much for our rights to own, hold and carry weapons. If it's a fashion statement that someone is trying evoke, buy an expensive tailor-made suit or pair of boots.

There are too many idiots out there who would qualify for a CC or OC permit, but do you want to see them at kids Little League or soccer games? I don't.

This opinion has nothing to do with infringing upon anyone's rights, it's just plain ole common sense.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I guess I don't get the desire for open carry - IMO, it identifies you as a great source for a gun if a band of ne'er-do-wells want it.What's the big deal about CCW?

First of all, it's about the Constitution. The Second Amendment says:

A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Once we accept that our rights can be infringed, we open the door for more and more "reasonable" infringement.

Second, there are many times when open carry is desirable -- I carry a pistol when hiking or riding. Technically, that's illegal (although no one would ever charge me.)

Third, "concealed carry" is ambiguous -- what if your gun prints? What if bending over to pick up something that fell off the shelf when you're shoping causes your cover garment to ride up?

 

[blackspyder]

In VA OC is legal, it's not the wild west either. Rarely do I OC but if I stop a the gas station on my way to the range it's nice to know that I don't have to remove my drop leg holster just to pump gas or get a can of Cope and a drink, or that when my CC "prints", or decides to show itself, it's not considered brandishing.

 

[Zombiphobia]

I would like the change to open carry. I think open OR concealed carry should be perfectly legal WITHOUT a permit. This is America.

PPL are allowed to openly or concealed carry a handgun in Arizona(and a couple other states I think) without a permit and I never saw crowds of people going crazy shooting each other up. I carried mine openly the entire time I was there (1 year) and only a few times ever ad anyone comment on it. One guy gave me hard time, but I was certainly wasn't going to disarm myself because e thought it was dumb, another guy complimented my pistol, and one woman asked why I carry, to which I replied "State law says I can, and I choose to exercise that legal right." Had a few people ask I was cop, I said no why do you ask, they said because I was wearing a gun, I said state law allows it, they confirmed their knowledge of this but were merely curious. I did have a few people obviously keeping a distance and watch me carefully, but I just sum it up to them being cautious since most of those types were very clean looking and polite, oh well, not an issue.

Oh I did have one police officer mention it, but it was after I removed my jacket and he politely explained that a jacket could not be draped over, it needed to be in plain view(before "constitutional carry" passed).
Didn't see alot of other people doing it, but occasionally would see it. I was ecstatic when they allowed concealed carry with no permit required.

 

[NavyLCDR]

one woman asked why I carry, to which I replied "State law says I can, and I choose to exercise that legal right."

I think a lot of the public bristle at the "it's my right to" answer - especially supposedly "pro-2A" folks who are against anyone else open carrying. Not only because of that reason, but also to be honest with them as to why I open carry, I answer that question with, "If you were a criminal, and you were looking for a target to steal a wallet from, who would you choose to steal from? Would you pick me, with this gun on my belt? Or would you pick that guy standing over there who doesn't appear to be wearing a gun? Is it really worth taking the chance of getting shot to steal my wallet? And if you wanted a gun, wouldn't it be easier just to steal that guys wallet over there, and maybe a couple others, and just buy a gun on the street rather than taking the chance of me shooting you?"

 

[LouCap]

"If you were a criminal, and you were looking for a target to steal a wallet from, who would you choose to steal from? Would you pick me, with this gun on my belt? Or would you pick that guy standing over there who doesn't appear to be wearing a gun? Is it really worth taking the chance of getting shot to steal my wallet? And if you wanted a gun, wouldn't it be easier just to steal that guys wallet over there, and maybe a couple others, and just buy a gun on the street rather than taking the chance of me shooting you?"

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, when you "bear arms" it's all about weapon retention. If I'm the criminal, I KNOW you have a gun, and the other guy might. Well, I hate surprises, so I'll just jump you from behind and steal your wallet AND your nice 1911 (or Glock, Kimber, etc.) from your fobus (or single strap) holster and be on my way.

My point being that the average citizen knows nothing about handgun retention nor do they wear an adequate holster to prevent their weapon from being snatched. Also, there is something to be said for the element of surprise.


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tablet using Tapatalk Pro.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, when you "bear arms" it's all about weapon retention. If I'm the criminal, I KNOW you have a gun, and the other guy might. Well, I hate surprises, so I'll just jump you from behind and steal your wallet AND your nice 1911 (or Glock, Kimber, etc.) from your fobus (or single strap) holster and be on my way.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again... show us examples of where that has happened in real life? News stories? Personal examples? Anything? At all? Hmmmm.......

But yeah, I'll bet it would START happening in Florida, even though it doesn't happen anywhere else.

What does happen when people open carry, in REALITY?

http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/19/gun-owner-saves-lives-in-the-richmond-va-golden-market-shooting/

Open carrying ^^^^^

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-atlanta/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw

Open carrying ^^^^^

Now, there is this:
http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html

With no evidence whatsoever the person was robbed because he was open carrying. And notice it was your standard armed robbery, not a jump you from behind and take your wallet and your gun. The criminal didn't need a gun, HE ALREADY HAD ONE!

Then there is this:
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/71002412.html

^^^^ Where the precious and famed "element of surprise" did not prevent the exact same thing from happening to the concealed carrier.

So, there must tons of other cases of open carriers getting robbed of their guns, right?!? Where are they?

What do the felons themselves say?
http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-screen.pdf

Page 31:

Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.

Fact: Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because they fear being shot.

Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following:

• 74% of felons agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."

• 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."

Isn't that interesting, it seems as if the Felons themselves are not at all interested in taking a gun from an armed citizen. So again, I guess it will have to start in Florida, because it doesn't happen anywhere else open carry is allowed.

 

[CDawg]

I hope they pass the law. More freedom is a good thing. I'll just carry any way I feel is best suited for the situations I anticipate during the day. Young and not so young people walking around with tactical thigh holsters doesn't bother me either. 23 years in the service and 5 more in law enforcement have taught me to be more comfortable when folks like that are around me in large numbers. Makes the bad guys very nervous. If some genius wants to try and "sneak up" and grap my openly carried weapon, it's a free country and they are certainly welcome to give that a try. Strong side, up front, good luck. Florida is also a state where we have a right to "stand your ground". None of that "duty to retreat" foolishness. Those who don't want to open carry don't have to and those who don't like it will have to get over it. I really don't see a downside. For folks who are worried about offending the anti gun crowd, worry away. That crowd has never and will never be a friend of gun owners. Them being pissed off about gun freedoms is the least of my worries. Better pissed off than pissed on.

 

[Mainsail]

Also, there is something to be said for the element of surprise.

If there is, you don’t mention what that something is. Since you did not, I will. There is no such thing as defensive surprise. It was the ‘element of surprise’ that caused you to find yourself in the situation where your concealed weapon was necessary. Surprise is an offensive move, and the criminals know how to use it effectively. The thing you’re calling ‘the element of surprise’ is not surprise, it’s damage control. The surprise card was already played by the bad guy, you can only react with damage control to prevent the situation from getting worse.

Open carry hopes to prevent the surprise and the need for damage control reaction.

 

[LouCap]

I hope they pass the law. More freedom is a good thing. I'll just carry any way I feel is best suited for the situations I anticipate during the day. Young and not so young people walking around with tactical thigh holsters doesn't bother me either. 23 years in the service and 5 more in law enforcement have taught me to be more comfortable when folks like that are around me in large numbers. Makes the bad guys very nervous. If some genius wants to try and "sneak up" and grap my openly carried weapon, it's a free country and they are certainly welcome to give that a try. Strong side, up front, good luck. Florida is also a state where we have a right to "stand your ground". None of that "duty to retreat" foolishness. Those who don't want to open carry don't have to and those who don't like it will have to get over it. I really don't see a downside. For folks who are worried about offending the anti gun crowd, worry away. That crowd has never and will never be a friend of gun owners. Them being pissed off about gun freedoms is the least of my worries. Better pissed off than pissed on.

Look, I'm a current LEO, and I'm pro gun. It's just that OC scares me when it comes to weapon retention and the average Joe. Forget about robbery for a moment, what about plain old physical alterations where the use of deadly force is not justified. Now you're in a fight with no intermediate weapons, the other guy knows you have a gun, and if he is a BG, he might try to grab it. Basically, anytime you get into a scuffle, there's always one known gun present...yours. I know, I know, walk away. But, what if you can't? I'm just playing the what if game here, and I hope I'm wrong.

At the end of the day, people are going to do what they want if it's allowed, with or without the proper training.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tablet using Tapatalk Pro.

 

[Mainsail]

Maybe I just have a pleasant personality, but in all my adult life I haven't felt the need to scuffle with anyone. Seriously, if someone is so immature or out of control of their emotions that they often find themselves in physical fights with others, chances are good they cannot legally own a gun anyway, so the open carry thereof is unlikely.

Of course, I can again point out that in states where open carry is practiced, like Virginia, Arizona, Alaska, and here in Washington, your fears have proven to be unfounded. When I lived in downtown Tacoma, the most dangerous city in all of the Northwest, I carried openly EVERY DAY. Because I lived downtown, I walked to do my daily chores/errands/exercise; I was on the streets and in the parks EVERY DAY. It never once caused there to be a crime against me and once prevented a crime against me. So what carries more credibility, my (and many others') experience or your speculation?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Does anyone but Mainsail and I notice how LouCap keeps bringing up the same point over and over again but has never risen to the challenge of providing an example of ANYWHERE his theory has actually occurred in reality?

Mainsail - perfect explanation of the "element of surprise"! +1000!

 

[MedWheeler]

Golden, you may be forgetting one little fact when you use the "cops get killed with their own guns" line arguing against open-carry: Cops, by the nature of their job, are required to actually come into close proximity with people who would bring them harm, and even tussle with them. This is how it happens; there are few, if any, documented instances in which someone previously unarmed simply walked up to a uniformed LEO, disarmed him, and shot him, without having been confronted by him first. I don't think the new permission to open-carry will come with the stipulation that people exercising that right approach and wrestle with criminals as cops must do.
I live in Florida, and I am fine with CWFL-holders having the extra option. I doubt I myself will exercise it much, if at all, but that's just me. There are a lot of valid reasons why OC might not be tactically wise, but I see no reason why it should remain unlawful, especially since there appears not to be problems with it in states that have allowed if for quite some time.

 

[CDawg]

I understand the use of force matrix that guides law enforcement folks. Familiar with what can be used when and done the weapon retention drills. Big difference between law enforcement and civilian guideance for use of force. Civilians do not have to carry intermediate weapons. Some do, but most don't, simply because they are not cops. They are not arresting people. They are not required to carry or use intermediate weapons. Someone trying to grab a civilian's weapon instantly escalates things to the use of deadly force level. I always ask folks who are considering carrying a weapon, "Are you willing to shoot another human being?" I don't mean theoretically, I mean really. They must consider how they will react to an attack, even if the attacker is unarmed, because when armed, any attack against you is a gunfight, because you brought a gun to the fight. Use it or lose it (and possibly die) is your choice. Here in Florida we have a "stand your ground" law. If you have a legal right to be somewhere, then you have a right to defend yourself against attack. You don't have to use equal or lesser force and you don't have a duty to retreat. You just have to provide evidence that you had a reasonable belief that your life or the life of another was in danger. Yes, there are risks to carrying a weapon. It's a great deal of responsibility. Some folks don't work through scenerios. They don't practice and anticipate different possible situations they may confront in public. They should, because they will have to answer for their actions. I think Florida should allow CWFL holders to open carry.

 

[buy guns]

This thread is freaking unbelievable. Are we not all gun owners? Do we not all care about the second amendment and our rights? There should be ZERO argument in this thread about OC.

I really see zero need for open carry in everyday life.

Just because YOU don't have a need for it doesn't mean someone else doesn't. I work for a real estate company and spend my days driving around to foreclosed houses all over southeast Florida. 4 days of the week I wear a tucked in shirt which means 4 days of the week I can't conceal my gun. If you wear dress clothes and sit in a car for 6-7 hours a day then OC is the only comfortable choice you have for carrying.

 

[joe_security]

If I ever OC, I will be using a level 2 retention holster, likely a Safariland. No holster is 100% snatchproof. I want every advantage I can get. I prefer to conceal IWB.

 

[oneounceload]

This thread is freaking unbelievable. Are we not all gun owners? Do we not all care about the second amendment and our rights? There should be ZERO argument in this thread about OC

Some of us would disagree; just because YOU think it should be a given, does not mean everyone else does

 

[LouCap]

Does anyone but Mainsail and I notice how LouCap keeps bringing up the same point over and over again but has never risen to the challenge of providing an example of ANYWHERE his theory has actually occurred in reality?

Mainsail - perfect explanation of the "element of surprise"! +1000!

My gosh, you're right. I guess no one has ever taken a weapon off anyone, anywhere. People don't get into fights, and everyone you meet only has the best of intentions.

If I harp on one point, it's because it concerns me, nothing more. I wish you nothing but the best of luck there LT, in all of your future endeavors.

Stay safe.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tablet using Tapatalk Pro.

 

[stuckinsocal]

There are some valid points here against OC, but some of you people sure sound like the Bradys and the anti's in the media; "no need" to OC being one of the most asinine arguments I've read on here. It's something I'd expect from the Bradys, not people who claim to be pro gun. Frankly, it's disgusting that some of you think like that and you should be ashamed of yourselves.

 

[Mainsail]

My gosh, you're right. I guess no one has ever taken a weapon off anyone, anywhere. People don't get into fights, and everyone you meet only has the best of intentions.

Wow, condescension from a LEO, who would have guessed? We’re all still waiting for you to make a reasoned argument, but you have so far failed to bring anything to the table except speculation, fantasy, and now patronizing. Your arguments are straight from the Handgun Control playbook- sound bites without substance. Seriously, stop helping.

 

[KingMedicine]

I personally dont open carry, but i live in an open carry state. But i see alot of people saying "they dont see the need to open carry"

Isnt the general statement "a right not used is a right lost"... I dont see the reason for a 33 round glock mag, but we should have a right to have them.

 

[Subie]

I've lived in population dense Northern Virginia less than 5 miles from the NRA headquarters, pseudo ghetto Hamptom Roads/Norfolk Virginia, one of the worst gun related crime cities in the country - Richmond, Virginia, and in the mountains near Charlottesville Virginia. Overall lived in VA for 15 years, an open carry state without license, and have seen open carry exactly one time by an old timer with a Kel Tec .32 in a fast draw holster larger than the pistol on his hip. He asked me a question about TV's and left.

I do not believe much will change if such an open carry law is passed. Maybe at the very start when people are excited about it, but it will peter out quickly when they find out how inconvenient it is when everybody else in public is constantly weary of their presence. It's not exactly a bad thing, it is a very positive aspect of a society to be uncomfortable at the sight of weapons as it represents much social progress. However having the right to open carry is important, if the times change, so I support open carry. It isn't a license to be a jerk, which many like to see it as (although they think the word "respected"), but it is very important. I am grateful of the fact that I feel just as safe concealed as I would open carry with a larger weapon and I wouldn't want to live in a place where that might not be the case, but I must be legally allowed to open carry if the situation prompts it.

On a practical note, as mentioned above it eliminates an accidental revealing of concealed carry and any consequences of that which must be a sigh of relief.

 

[NavyLCDR]

It's not exactly a bad thing, it is a very positive aspect of a society to be uncomfortable at the sight of weapons as it represents much social progress.

WHAT?!?! How do you consider it to be "social progress" that people are uncomfortable at the sight of citizens who exercise the right to protect themselves and their families from violent crime? I think that either you might have stumbled into the wrong forum by mistake, or possibly misspelled "socialism progress"

Social progress would be if society was uncomfortable at the sight of a criminal! But, instead, society is more comfortable with the criminal standing next them, rather than the law abiding citizen standing next to them having the means to stop that criminal available to them.