What If Florida Got Open Carry?

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Originally Posted by Subie
It's not exactly a bad thing, it is a very positive aspect of a society to be uncomfortable at the sight of weapons as it represents much social progress.

It is a very positive aspect of a society to be uncomfortable with freedom of speech as it represents much social progress.

It is a very positive aspect of a society to be uncomfortable with freedom of the press as it represents much social progress.

It is a very positive aspect of a society to be uncomfortable with freedom of religion as it represents much social progress.

It is a very positive aspect of a society to be uncomfortable with the right to trial by jury as it represents much social progress.

It is a very positive aspect of a society to be uncomfortable with innocent until proven guilty as it represents much social progress.

It is a very positive aspect of a society to be uncomfortable with the right to vote as it represents much social progress.
 
Personally while I hope OC is approved, I still desire to carry concealed for the same reasons many others have already stated. However, 'restricting OC' is a limitation of our gun rights - so it is WRONG. Moreover, in case there ever is a 'printing' issue - it would no longer be as great of concern ...
 
You hit both the right points -- we have "compromised" too many of our rights away. It's time to get them back.

And the possibility that you might accidentally print or expose your gun is a valid reason for wanting open carry.
 
It is a very positive aspect of a society to be uncomfortable with freedom of speech as it represents much social progress.

It is a very positive aspect of a society to be uncomfortable with freedom of the press as it represents much social progress.

It is a very positive aspect of a society to be uncomfortable with freedom of religion as it represents much social progress.

It is a very positive aspect of a society to be uncomfortable with the right to trial by jury as it represents much social progress.

It is a very positive aspect of a society to be uncomfortable with innocent until proven guilty as it represents much social progress.

It is a very positive aspect of a society to be uncomfortable with the right to vote as it represents much social progress.

Because saying a bunch of wrong stuff in the same manner as something that was correct, but makes you uncomfortable, constitutes a valid argument. Did you bother to even think about it or did you instantly perceive it as a threatening statement against guns? This kind of over the top attitude is literally the only thing that will remove our right to bear arms in the perceivable future. There are those who want to take them, but is in our Constitution. Do you have any idea what kind of uphill battle that is? There are several core concepts to why the law is in place to bear arms. How is it that they, anti gun proponents, were able to chip away at gun rights slowly, law by law, despite the insurmountable odds against them?

Because of irrational arguments and attitudes by the stupid, screaming minority making guns owners "a group". Don't you see this is exactly how they will win? Don't you understand that this is on purpose? They propose ridiculous anti-gun laws that would be struck down in a half second in court only to face the most unnecessarily excessive comeback year after year, decade after decade, all the while turning the public tide against us. Turn the public, turn the courts. This is only made worse that so many of the comebacks themselves are arrogant and inane - a very unfortunate and self destructive combination.

Now anti-gun proponents have so much traction in the public that we fight a real fight to keep guns. Now is as important as ever to fight carefully, smartly. In a sense, gun laws got a very lucky break when there started being 100 issues more important to worry about than gun control and it was placed on a backburner. If we were proceeding as we were 10-15 years ago we'd be lucky to have kitchen knives right now. We have allowed them to pin all the gun crime on us. We let them. Rather than refocusing them on the real social issues that are the root of the problems, we validated everything they accused us of by reacting the way we did - both by the loud minority and collectively in this case.

I'd like to point something out while I'm on this very long rant. When someone questions a rule, you cannot defend the rule by claiming the rule makes it valid. Imagine there is a sign that says "Walk on the sidewalk". Mr.Dickhead comes up and says "Why should I do that? Lets walk on the grass too". The answer to this is not "THE SIGN SAYS WALK ON THE SIDEWALK" it is, "If everybody walked on the grass, it will be ruined". If somebody says "Citizens no longer need guns and the second amendment is invalid" the answer isn't "THE SECOND AMENDMENT GIVES ME THE RIGHT TO OWN GUNS". They are questioning the reasoning, they aren't blind. These days there are those who specifically try to draw that response, because of the value it has for the gun control cause. It gives the amendment a hollow appearance if that's the "main" argument heard by the general public. It must be backed up with the facts.

Don't nitpick a tiny detail and stamp down as hard as you can while ignoring everything else. For instance, what you went off on was insignificant, while the entire post was pro open carry. In fact you later went on to agree with Doc1911 who said the exact same thing. If you're going to do that, at least address everything else as well.

And now to what was said. I'm not exactly sure how the psychological response to weapons in any way relates to our right to free speech, freedom of religion, trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty, or the right to vote. The very concept that currently there are areas safe enough where the sight of a weapon will make someone uncomfortable is a milestone in social progress. There are very few times in history this has ever been the case. I can understand how this might be perceived as an anti gun statement, in a knee jerk response sort of way, but see above. However, while it is nice to daydream about a time where weapons would never be needed, it is laughable at best and disastrous to try. Open carry should be allowed, it is an important right, but I'm very glad it's unnecessary in very many places. Unfortunately the only places I can think of where it's prudent to be openly well armed are the places where you can't have a gun at all.
 
Because saying a bunch of wrong stuff in the same manner as something that was correct, but makes you uncomfortable, constitutes a valid argument. Did you bother to even think about it or did you instantly perceive it as a threatening statement against guns?
The question is, did you think "makes people uncomfortable" is a valid argument for violating the Constitution?

I can remember when sitting next to a Black person on a bus made some people very uncomfortable.
 
Subie said:
The very concept that currently there are areas safe enough where the sight of a weapon will make someone uncomfortable is a milestone in social progress.

And the bold and underlined part above, my friend, is where your argument falls apart.

What areas are safe enough?

Columbine High School?
Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University?
Luby's Cafeteria?
Wedgewood Baptist Church in Texas?
Living Church of God in Wisconsin?

Your statement:
It's not exactly a bad thing, it is a very positive aspect of a society to be uncomfortable at the sight of weapons as it represents much social progress.
has NOTHING to do about social progress, my friend; and promotes and mirrors EXACTLY the empty propaganda that the anti-gun groups are cramming down the throats of every lemming that will listen to it. It is a statement full of empty promises that the government will protect the citizen from the criminal. It promotes the idea that the gun is bad, rather than the criminal.

The aspect of society that is uncomfortable at the sight of weapons is uncomfortable because they have been brainwashed into believing the weapon is evil, rather than the criminal using it. And that brainwashing has made great inroads into the pro-gun community as well, as evidenced by the numbers of gun carriers who are afraid at the thought of law abiding citizens actually coming out of the closet and carrying their guns in the open.
 
The aspect of society that is uncomfortable at the sight of weapons is uncomfortable because they have been brainwashed into believing the weapon is evil, rather than the criminal using it. And that brainwashing has made great inroads into the pro-gun community as well, as evidenced by the numbers of gun carriers who are afraid at the thought of law abiding citizens actually coming out of the closet and carrying their guns in the open.

+1 Very well said.
 
Funny. My buddy and I have carried since 3 weeks after we turned 21 and never had a problem since that time. I respect your opinion, but I believe that is a very poor attitude to have. So you are a member of the crowd who has no problem with young men and women going over seas to fight for your freedom and rights, but wish to deny them those rights and freedom when they return. Is this accurate?

ETA this is directed at welldoya's comment in post #25.
 
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And the bold and underlined part above, my friend, is where your argument falls apart.

What areas are safe enough?

Columbine High School?
Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University?
Luby's Cafeteria?
Wedgewood Baptist Church in Texas?
Living Church of God in Wisconsin?

How about the hundreds of thousands of similar places that do not have these tragedies? If you want to avoid that situation that has odds of .0001% of ever happening, then buy your mountaintop and tighten your tinfoil hat and avoid all contact with anyone......really, calling out the 1 of a million scenarios is really getting old - if you are that paranoid, perhaps some other locale would suit you better
 
Wow, condescension from a LEO, who would have guessed? We’re all still waiting for you to make a reasoned argument, but you have so far failed to bring anything to the table except speculation, fantasy, and now patronizing. Your arguments are straight from the Handgun Control playbook- sound bites without substance. Seriously, stop helping.
I'm sorry you think I'm being condescending, and that my posts are not living up to your expectations. It's just that I don't seem to have the kind of time you do to spend on this forum and formulate arguments. I was merely trying to participate in what I thought was an open forum in a casual manner. I didn't anticipate the animosity and venom that seems to be launched against anyone bold enough to have a difference of opinion. So, if at all possible, let's stop with the personal attacks, okay?

That being said, I did find a moment to do a quick Google search and found this article from June of last year that illustrates the possibilities.

Here's the link...

http://www.jsonline.mobi/95995449.htm?page=1&ua=android&dc=smart&c=y

and here's the text...

Robber takes gun from man wearing holster
[/I][/I]By Ryan Haggerty of the Journal Sentinel

June 9, 2010 | (23) Comments

Milwaukee police are investigating a robbery in which a man took a handgun from another man who was openly carrying the gun in a holster on his hip, a department spokeswoman said Wednesday.

The robbery occurred Friday on a sidewalk in the 7000 block of N. Teutonia Ave., police spokeswoman Anne E. Schwartz said.

The robber approached the 34-year-old victim and asked for a cigarette, Schwartz said. The victim gave the robber a cigarette, but the robber then pointed a handgun at the victim and took the victim's gun from his holster, she said.

No one was injured, Schwartz said.

The robber has not been arrested. Anyone with information about the robbery is asked to call the Police Department's 4th District at (414) 935-7243.


So, per your request, there's your example. AND, like your partner, I only wish you well.

Be safe.
 
And it would have been different if the victim had been carrying a concealed handgun?

Nope.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/71002412.html

And it would have been different if the victim were a cop?

Nope.

http://policelink.monster.com/news/articles/137678-off-duty-officers-gun-stolen-during-carjacking

WASHINGTON, D.C. – An off-duty District of Columbia police officer’s service weapon was taken during a carjacking in East Baltimore on Monday night, city police confirmed.

The 44-year-old officer told police he was driving home on Harford Road and East 25th Street at about 11:40 p.m. when a woman stepped in front of his car and a man armed with a handgun ordered him out of the vehicle, police said.


If we are then going to continue to apply your reasoning, LouCap, nobody but criminals should carry guns, because concealed carriers and cops get theirs stolen from them as well.

And, here's a really good one... police officers DEFINITELY should not carry guns!

http://www.wgal.com/news/14890667/detail.html

HARRISBURG, Pa. -- A Capitol police officer is out of a job after telling investigators he hired a prostitute who then stole his gun.

and

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/20...0100415-1_1_service-weapon-carjacking-suspect

A District of Columbia police officer whose service weapon was stolen during what he said was a carjacking on his way home from work later admitted to detectives that he gave one of the suspects a ride for money, according to court records.


and

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/blog/2010/04/harford_sheriffs_deputys_gun_s.html

What the release didn't include, The Sun's Jessica Anderson learned, was that the gun belonged to a county sheriff's deputy.

Of course, that was our first question: why was a handgun in a Royal Farms store in the first place? Police acknowledged that the gun belonged to a deputy who made a pit stop and left his gun in the bathroom. Oh, and the incident occurred March 1


What's the score now, LouCap? Maybe a more appropriate question would be, "What if Florida allowed police officers to carry guns?"

LouCap said:
I'm sorry you think I'm being condescending, and that my posts are not living up to your expectations. It's just that I don't seem to have the kind of time you do to spend on this forum and formulate arguments. I was merely trying to participate in what I thought was an open forum in a casual manner.

You presented to us a theory that we have heard over and over again... we were just asking for evidence that the theory holds true. The fact is the number of cases that can be found of Joe Citizen getting his gun snatched out of his holster are less than one per year, even though 43 states allow open carry. The number of cases of police officers who can't seem to hold on to their guns is many times that number. So why is open carry a concern and not police officers with guns?
 
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How about the hundreds of thousands of similar places that do not have these tragedies?
How about the hundreds of thousands of homes that do not have fires? Let's do away with home owner's insurance.

How about the hundreds of thousands of cars that do not have wrecks? Let's do away with air bags and seat belts.
 
LouCap said:
I'm sorry you think I'm being condescending, and that my posts are not living up to your expectations. It's just that I don't seem to have the kind of time you do to spend on this forum and formulate arguments. I was merely trying to participate in what I thought was an open forum in a casual manner. I didn't anticipate the animosity and venom that seems to be launched against anyone bold enough to have a difference of opinion. So, if at all possible, let's stop with the personal attacks, okay?

Lou, there are no personal attacks. You say that you want to participate and I am (and have been) encouraging you to do so. Where we part company philosophically is in the substance of our arguments. You made the claim that open carry was a bad idea in several threads, I have only asked you to back up those statements with some sort of empirical evidence, or at least give a reasonable explanation of why you believe it.

You see, anyone can say anything. I could make the claim that all police officers are jackbooted thugs, but unless I can back that up with either evidence or at least a reasoned argument, you would be correct in calling me out. Simply making a statement is not a debate, and attempting to base an argument on emotional fear is weak, especially when you’re shown, by actual experience, that your fear is wrong.

Right now you believe that open carry is dangerous, that we don’t use retention holsters, etc. I don’t doubt that you believe it! Several of us have pointed out flaws in your beliefs using actual experience and evidence. So here I am, an advocate for open carry, trying to convince you that your fears about open carry are unfounded based on my personal experience, the experiences of others, actual evidence (not rare or one-time occurrences) and reasoned argument. I have asked, and continue to ask, for your reasoned argument against it. Convince me that I’m wrong. Don’t just tell me what you believe, put forth a convincing argument to change my mind. That’s not attacking you. That’s normal healthy debate.

As an aside, I don’t need a lot of time to formulate my argument. This subject comes up in some form at least once a week, so I just recycle the same argument. Someone, possibly intrigued by the idea of open carry, asks about it and someone else tells them it’s dumb- based on nothing more than their own insecurities, fears, and prejudice. When asked to back up their claims, they either disappear, accuse the person on the opposing side of attacking them, or simply restate the same argument. This isn’t new.
 
I need to stop starting threads. This has gotten way off the rails. I'll admit I've been incindiary by intent or accident before but this...this is just <face in palm>. I was just thinking of the practical not the philosophical. I wanted a check from un-named and faceless majority of us "High Roaders" that what I was considering might have been downright silly or even detrimental to the cause of making firearm ownership and open carry a perfectly healthy and normal facet of our society. I knew in the back of mind that strapping one of my 7.5" barrel Redhawks to a hip holster was a bad idea but I needed that encouragement to make it sink it. Now we are getting into whether open carry should be allowed, should be done, etc...

How about we agree that the laws of our nation that are meant to protect our rights and well-being, should not be used to accost and destroy those very same rights and well-being. Cops are not expert trained warriors, they are human beings with a good deal more training and understanding of firearms than the current average joe. Yes some are ex-military, some grew up with guns, some grew up going to competitions, and some actively participate in shooting competitions. But enough of us have been to shooting ranges where LEOs are walking about blustering and BSing yet they can't even shoot at our grade. Then there are those LEOs who don't identify themselves, who you only know are LEOs because of your private life, and you watch them shoot like they were Jeff Cooper almost. They might offer a kind word of advice or encouragement but they tend to keep to themselves and are in their own state of zen.

So we can argue to death what is, what should be, and what will be, there are other threads for that, feel free to start them. But can we please get back to the practical aspect of open carry, maybe folks posting pics of their open carry rigs for those who open carry. For those who have opened carry and still have the right to but choose to conceal carry maybe sharing their thoughts and feelings on the matter. And maybe those of us in Florida sharing our desire to open carry but are nervous about it and just don't want to do any harm. I want to open carry primarily because I'm a small business owner, I'm a law school graduate(sitting for bar this 23rd), a certified family mediator, well-read, well-traveled, very active in charity work. So maybe being the normal guy in the bookstore sipping his Latte', typing on his labtop at Books-a-Million while taking a break from a two hour straight study session for the Florida Bar, might not be the worst guy to have a Ruger P345, Taurus PT 99, or S&W Model 15 in a OWB holster.
 
How about summing it up like this, then:

The basic difference between open carry and concealed carry is whether or not the shirt gets tucked in behind the holster or over the holster. For those of us that open carry every day, every where it's legal to do so, that is the only difference that we notice probably 99% of the time.

99% of the people out there just don't notice or don't care about an openly carried firearm. The problem and drama of open carry is that the .5% of people that do notice and raise a stink about it get all the attention.

Does open carry have a chance at deterring a crime? Sure, IF the criminal notices the gun. Do I count on it deterring all crime, hell no. Because just like in ordinary life, there is a 99% chance the criminal isn't going to notice my gun anyway, unless they are really sizing me up and evaluating me as a target. And that's the same reason the theory that the criminal is going to shoot Joe Citizen first for open carrying doesn't hold water - because 99% of the time the gun isn't noticed (and the fact that there is a huge difference in committing murder and armed robbery - criminals have limits too.)

The proven fact is that in the 43 states that allow open carry, it just simply does not pose any major problems - and if police and dispatchers were trained properly and respond properly within the confines of the 4th amendment to the US Constitution, the vast majority of the minor problems would go away.

Since you asked, MagnumDweeb, here's your typical open carry rigs:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7051135&postcount=25
^^^The guy in the middle of that one is the Attorney General for the state of Washington.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7051334&postcount=26

And this is me:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7027365&postcount=33

The only thing, in reality, that open carry in Florida would do is take away a crime that someone could be charged with for carrying a firearm which would be otherwise legal, just because that firearm was exposed to view.
 
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Well MagnumDweeb, being a forum member for about three years and a law school graduate, I would think you would realize that starting a thread about a passionate subject would gererate a passionate response.
 
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