What if you need to fire in a very crowded area?
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If you have to fire in a crowded area your best strategy is to retain a good lawyer. As others have pointed out - you will be held accountable for your bullets, as is the case here:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nb/heights/news/6487475.htmlhttp://http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nb/heights/news/6487475.html
It was a good shoot that stopped an armed, imminent threat, but if it was me, I don't have the police dept's legal team backing me up. A hard call for a CHL holder.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nb/heights/news/6487475.htmlhttp://http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nb/heights/news/6487475.html
It was a good shoot that stopped an armed, imminent threat, but if it was me, I don't have the police dept's legal team backing me up. A hard call for a CHL holder.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
Drop to a knee and that would put your point of aim, well, up.
Not sure how effective it would be but it's an idea.
Not sure how effective it would be but it's an idea.
DHJenkins
Member
Stay out of very crowded areas...
Don't see how angling up helps anything. Now you've just got a larger landing zone after the bullet exits the BG. I'd think you'd want to do the opposite, and angle down, and hope that no one is between the opposite side of the BG and the ground. Get higher; step up on a chair or a bench, which pretty much surrenders most any cover but puts any misses into the ground within a couple of feet. Or if it's already close quarters (which is the only time I see firing around a crowd as a possible scenario) dash/move in, put your elbow as high as you can, and angle shots down into the body.
First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for their contributions to this thread. This is exactly the kind of conversation I was looking for.
Stirling XD wrote:
In the initial post, I never specified who/what the target was. It doesn't have to be an active shooter.
Junyo wrote:
I wonder how dangerous it would be after losing a bunch of energy going through a body.
Stirling XD wrote:
In the initial post, I never specified who/what the target was. It doesn't have to be an active shooter.
Junyo wrote:
I wonder how dangerous it would be after losing a bunch of energy going through a body.
.455_Hunter
Member
Not possible all the time, especially if you want to leave your remote compound and enjoy some culture every once in a while.
bigfatdave
Member
To those who think trick ammo is the solution, do you intend to reload with the frangible ammunition on the fly? Or do you CC a handgun loaded with frangible and another loaded with more versatile ammunition?
Just curious about how hardware is going to solve this one.
My personal opinion (worth what you paid for it):
Option 1 - Retreat.
Option 2 through eleventy billion or so - Retreat!
After those options are exhausted - Get close enough to ensure solid hits (7-10 yards gets me consistent point-shooting hits on a mini-silhouette, longer for aimed fire, shorter if a cranial shot is the only option) using the crowd as cover if possible, and keeping the element of surprise if at all possible. Adding a diversion to the mix can be added if appropriate & practical.
I am not a SWAT/SEAL/sniper/tactical elite operator, and I am not planning on being a hero. I refuse to be a victim, but CC doesn't mean I am responsible for the safety of others.
Just curious about how hardware is going to solve this one.
My personal opinion (worth what you paid for it):
Option 1 - Retreat.
Option 2 through eleventy billion or so - Retreat!
After those options are exhausted - Get close enough to ensure solid hits (7-10 yards gets me consistent point-shooting hits on a mini-silhouette, longer for aimed fire, shorter if a cranial shot is the only option) using the crowd as cover if possible, and keeping the element of surprise if at all possible. Adding a diversion to the mix can be added if appropriate & practical.
I am not a SWAT/SEAL/sniper/tactical elite operator, and I am not planning on being a hero. I refuse to be a victim, but CC doesn't mean I am responsible for the safety of others.
BikerRN
member
I select Option 1 and 2 as my first choice.
If that wasn't possible I see changing the angle of your shot, either upward or downward as a possible solution.
BikerRN
theotherwaldo
Member
Remember Mumbai.
Sometimes you must take the shot.
Sometimes you must take the shot.
RobNDenver
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I know that not everyone will be able to afford Laser Grips, but JHP ammunition is within reach of anyone that carries. I have equipped both of my carry guns with CTC Laser Grips and use Ranger (LE) Jacketed Hollow Points. If I were ever in a situation again where I faced death from a person shooting at me, I would feel much better than when I had to carry a 4 inch Model 10 with iron sights and full metal jacketed bullets. Get the best technology that money can buy, and practice, practice, practice. . . .
Dogbite
Member
Go down to one knee, and aim up at an angle so your shot, if it goes through, will hopefully clear the crowd.
If you don't want to/cant do this, then I like the pelvis shot.
If you don't want to/cant do this, then I like the pelvis shot.
mcdonl
Member
Ok... so I had this thread in my head last night when my family went to the busiest soup kitchen in portland. 60% working poor, the rest homeless. Most with drug/alchohol problems, and/or mental issues.
The place is PACKED... every seat gets filled 2 or 3 times as people come, eat and leave.
Because of my size and confidence, I get the "bad" tables... I have built a raport with the folks there too... I like them, they like me...
But, back to this thread...
Everytime I am there, at least one or two shouting, sometimes even pushing matches start. They end quickly, but it makes you think....
I tried to envision a man pulling out a gun. There was not one scenario where I would have been able to see a gun, and NOT be able to reach the man to engage him with in a physical attack. This seems as though it would have been the only viable option.
Like the experts say... if you find yourself in this type of a situation (Man with a gun or knife and your "In the scene") you are likley to get stabbed or shot. Knowing this, the most prudent thing to do is try to stop the person with something other then a gun. You all carry a good defensive flashlight, and a knife of somesort... some of you even carry pepper spray or a stun gun...
Avoiding crowds is out of the question for most normal people, and... in many cases... (Concerts, soup kitchens, rallys, etc....) crowds are where the higher risks are. Knowing this, AND being someone who carries you need to consider what you would do. I carry on these nights for the walk back to the car with my wife and kids...
I would imagine that unless there is an active shooter in the vacinity of my family... I would not shoot. I would only shoot to safe my own...
I mean, I would go to jail if it meant saving the life of my wife or kids, but ony in the most gravest of extremes (Sorry.....)
Well, sorry to ramble... Also, the police were called last night and it was an interesting approach they used.... first they blocked one end of the block.... pulled an ambulance in... and blocked the other entrance the block.... then they came in through the front AND backdoors at the same time.
The place is PACKED... every seat gets filled 2 or 3 times as people come, eat and leave.
Because of my size and confidence, I get the "bad" tables... I have built a raport with the folks there too... I like them, they like me...
But, back to this thread...
Everytime I am there, at least one or two shouting, sometimes even pushing matches start. They end quickly, but it makes you think....
I tried to envision a man pulling out a gun. There was not one scenario where I would have been able to see a gun, and NOT be able to reach the man to engage him with in a physical attack. This seems as though it would have been the only viable option.
Like the experts say... if you find yourself in this type of a situation (Man with a gun or knife and your "In the scene") you are likley to get stabbed or shot. Knowing this, the most prudent thing to do is try to stop the person with something other then a gun. You all carry a good defensive flashlight, and a knife of somesort... some of you even carry pepper spray or a stun gun...
Avoiding crowds is out of the question for most normal people, and... in many cases... (Concerts, soup kitchens, rallys, etc....) crowds are where the higher risks are. Knowing this, AND being someone who carries you need to consider what you would do. I carry on these nights for the walk back to the car with my wife and kids...
I would imagine that unless there is an active shooter in the vacinity of my family... I would not shoot. I would only shoot to safe my own...
I mean, I would go to jail if it meant saving the life of my wife or kids, but ony in the most gravest of extremes (Sorry.....)
Well, sorry to ramble... Also, the police were called last night and it was an interesting approach they used.... first they blocked one end of the block.... pulled an ambulance in... and blocked the other entrance the block.... then they came in through the front AND backdoors at the same time.
If you're in such a tight crowd you're probably close to the bad guy, so get your pistol as high (or close to your face) as you can and shoot for the pelvic bone. Do a little experiment and stand two full yards away from someone and aim for the belt and look at the almost 45deg angle. That's calf and ankle shots if you miss. I'm not saying the guy won't take your gun from you at that distance, or you won't find a way make a mistake but it's certainly an option... IMHO.
sidheshooter
Member
This is one reason (of several) why a "pelvic hold" is good for taking suspects at point; rounds that pass through will hit ground some number of yards away (how many depends upon how close you are; as mentioned directly above, it may not even be yards if you are at contact distance).
That said, targeting depends what's cooking with this guy; contact weapon vs. shooter, etc.
There are too many variables that can change in an instant to make a good call without being there (which I am not, thankfully).
Regarding ammo selection, I remember being taught that some of the light 'n fast loads spec'd by the border patrol in days of yore (ie: 110 gr. .357, 155 gr. .40-the first of the light .40s...) had penetration in tight quarters taken as part of the considerations.
Ultimately, I have no new/good ideas.
I will thank the OP for the question, however; every time someone brings up one of these "no win" topics, it gets my mind going over possibilities, which is probably a good thing.
YammyMonkey
Member
The answer is training. Lots & lots of training (classes & on your own). If you're in a deadly force fight you need to worry first about taking care of the threat. Everyone else is a non-issue for the shooting problem. Put your front sight on the threat & run the gun.
I know the above will be misconstrued so here's a little more-
You do have an obligation to not hurt anyone while you're trying to stop the threat. But, concerning yourself with everyone else in the moment will not do you any good. When it is time to shoot the badguy it is time to shoot the badguy so shoot the badguy. If it is a contact range fight get yourself a superior position, access your weapon & go to work. If it is a longer distance engagement draw, get your front sight on the target & smoothly work the trigger without disturbing the sights. Focus on what you need to do.
Any way you look at it this is a nightmare situation. But it has relevance to less crowded areas as well. Just because there aren't 1000 people behind the badguy doesn't mean your shot placement is less important. Train. Pray the day never comes. When it does, make the shot.
I know the above will be misconstrued so here's a little more-
You do have an obligation to not hurt anyone while you're trying to stop the threat. But, concerning yourself with everyone else in the moment will not do you any good. When it is time to shoot the badguy it is time to shoot the badguy so shoot the badguy. If it is a contact range fight get yourself a superior position, access your weapon & go to work. If it is a longer distance engagement draw, get your front sight on the target & smoothly work the trigger without disturbing the sights. Focus on what you need to do.
Any way you look at it this is a nightmare situation. But it has relevance to less crowded areas as well. Just because there aren't 1000 people behind the badguy doesn't mean your shot placement is less important. Train. Pray the day never comes. When it does, make the shot.
justashooter in pa
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jump up really high in the air and cap the bad guy straight through from the top of his head and it'll come out his A-hole. you could try the reverse, but that's getting a bit too personal for me...
mljdeckard
Member
The rule: "Know your target and what is beyond it" ALWAYS applies. It applies to soldiers on the battlefield. You are responsible for the entire bullet path.
If the crowd is that thick, it causes all kinds of problems, Is it thick because they are unaware of the threat, or are they all trampling each other to get away because someone is shooting? If they are unaware, you are talking about shooting first. If there is already shooting going on, my main responsibility is to get away with everyone else. If everyone is running away, and there's chaos, it seems to me my best plan is to blend in with it.
I opened a thread in here a couple of months ago about kneeling as a first shooting position in a defensive shooting. It seems to me, most defensive shootings are going to occur in a public place. (If possibly out of public view.) Most public places have lots of concealment and almost NO cover. Everything is made out of drywall rather than brick these days. (If your circumstances are indeed different, it is worth noting.) If you fire at a flat angle at another person, you are probably sending a bullet into another place another person might be. I still think, that you should train for the possibility of dropping to a knee to take the shot. This idea isn't perfect. Kneeling takes time. (I recommend practicing drawing and taking a knee at the same time. Wear kneepads, you'll need them.) It is also entirely possible that you will kneel, and elevate the trajectory into the second story of a building or the balcony of the mall. But if you have trained for it, it's an option.
Part of situational awareness should include assessing targets as you move. Just like you should always be looking for a back door, you should always be asking yourself; "If I had to shoot RIGHT NOW, how would I do it?" It's one of those things you have to think about BEFORE the crisis hits.
And yes, ultimately, you might be stuck with a no-winner. No clear shot at all. I would still rather be armed and LOOKING for the clear shot than not be armed at all. I will not go so far as to say; "I would take the shot anyway", I don't know that I would.
If the crowd is that thick, it causes all kinds of problems, Is it thick because they are unaware of the threat, or are they all trampling each other to get away because someone is shooting? If they are unaware, you are talking about shooting first. If there is already shooting going on, my main responsibility is to get away with everyone else. If everyone is running away, and there's chaos, it seems to me my best plan is to blend in with it.
I opened a thread in here a couple of months ago about kneeling as a first shooting position in a defensive shooting. It seems to me, most defensive shootings are going to occur in a public place. (If possibly out of public view.) Most public places have lots of concealment and almost NO cover. Everything is made out of drywall rather than brick these days. (If your circumstances are indeed different, it is worth noting.) If you fire at a flat angle at another person, you are probably sending a bullet into another place another person might be. I still think, that you should train for the possibility of dropping to a knee to take the shot. This idea isn't perfect. Kneeling takes time. (I recommend practicing drawing and taking a knee at the same time. Wear kneepads, you'll need them.) It is also entirely possible that you will kneel, and elevate the trajectory into the second story of a building or the balcony of the mall. But if you have trained for it, it's an option.
Part of situational awareness should include assessing targets as you move. Just like you should always be looking for a back door, you should always be asking yourself; "If I had to shoot RIGHT NOW, how would I do it?" It's one of those things you have to think about BEFORE the crisis hits.
And yes, ultimately, you might be stuck with a no-winner. No clear shot at all. I would still rather be armed and LOOKING for the clear shot than not be armed at all. I will not go so far as to say; "I would take the shot anyway", I don't know that I would.
Kind of Blued
Member
I have a hard time imagining a situation where this is even plausible.
When someone makes it clear that they would like to kill someone, people tend to move away from that person at a rapid pace.
Anyway, if you will certainly die if you don't shoot, you have to shoot and deal with the consequences. If you have any other possible option, you should take that. I would hope that an individual understands that just because they've trained to react to and handle every imaginable lethal force incident, they should still avoid firing the gun at all times.
To carry an ineffective frangible round in the tube "just in case" is a stupid idea, in my opinion.
When someone makes it clear that they would like to kill someone, people tend to move away from that person at a rapid pace.
Anyway, if you will certainly die if you don't shoot, you have to shoot and deal with the consequences. If you have any other possible option, you should take that. I would hope that an individual understands that just because they've trained to react to and handle every imaginable lethal force incident, they should still avoid firing the gun at all times.
To carry an ineffective frangible round in the tube "just in case" is a stupid idea, in my opinion.
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bigione
Member
If he was shooting others, I imagine they would be moving away from him and probaly falling to the floor. It might creat an opportunity for a clear shot by kneeling or falling prone
Situation- Subway train
Say I have my Glock 23 in my drop legs holster. This "lunatic" starts attacking people on the opposite end of the train car from me. I stay in my seat quietly until he approaches me with his firearm, in which case my jacket is over my legs and my Glock is drawn and placed between my legs. As soon as he gets to where he is within five feet of me (assuming he is going one by one like most idiots out there) I have the angle to put the bullet through his chest cavity. IF it over penetrates (which I know for a fact the rounds in my Glock 23 definitely will) it is a good enough angle for the bullet to miss passengers and go through the roof of the car or maybe a high part of the window.
Situation- Parade
Let's be reasonable, there are hella amounts of law enforcement at these things so it in unlikely but not impossible. For reference though, "lunatic" starts shooting up crowd and manages to eliminate/disarm all police officials. You will not need to use a gun in this scenario until a certain point. I am fairly sure that in a panicked crowd he will get careless and be shooting at random. With all the people running around you should easily be able to tackle him from behind (have your weapon drawn before hand). Upon hitting the ground you can easily put a round into his spine or jam a good knife upwards beneath his jawline killing him quickly.
Situation- Movies
In this scenario your best possible option is to either walk away (DONT TURN YOUR BACK) or try to talk the situation down. I personally can talk myself into and out of anything. Let's say these options are not viable. There isn't anything you can do in this case, most times though, upon seeing a gun bystanders will scatter to get away and start calling the police. Let's say they don't and just circle you and the assailant like retards. At this point you have your gun drawn as an answer to his firearm. You need to ask yourself in your head before making a decision. "Six or twelve?"
NOW! Since I have covered the three scenarios lets talk a second. While not impossible these scenarios are very unlikely no matter what the circumstances. This isn't the twenties where a bad smile will get you shot. Yeah we have the crazies out there but most times they are just crazy and don't do anything. As far as the BEST answer goes, it is simple. Don't put yourself into a position to be in such situations and if it happens, get away quickly and forget you saw it. In the end the answer to your question all boils down to one question you have to ask yourself before pulling the trigger in ANY scenario.
Would you rather be tried by twelve or have you and/or loved ones carried by six?
Say I have my Glock 23 in my drop legs holster. This "lunatic" starts attacking people on the opposite end of the train car from me. I stay in my seat quietly until he approaches me with his firearm, in which case my jacket is over my legs and my Glock is drawn and placed between my legs. As soon as he gets to where he is within five feet of me (assuming he is going one by one like most idiots out there) I have the angle to put the bullet through his chest cavity. IF it over penetrates (which I know for a fact the rounds in my Glock 23 definitely will) it is a good enough angle for the bullet to miss passengers and go through the roof of the car or maybe a high part of the window.
Situation- Parade
Let's be reasonable, there are hella amounts of law enforcement at these things so it in unlikely but not impossible. For reference though, "lunatic" starts shooting up crowd and manages to eliminate/disarm all police officials. You will not need to use a gun in this scenario until a certain point. I am fairly sure that in a panicked crowd he will get careless and be shooting at random. With all the people running around you should easily be able to tackle him from behind (have your weapon drawn before hand). Upon hitting the ground you can easily put a round into his spine or jam a good knife upwards beneath his jawline killing him quickly.
Situation- Movies
In this scenario your best possible option is to either walk away (DONT TURN YOUR BACK) or try to talk the situation down. I personally can talk myself into and out of anything. Let's say these options are not viable. There isn't anything you can do in this case, most times though, upon seeing a gun bystanders will scatter to get away and start calling the police. Let's say they don't and just circle you and the assailant like retards. At this point you have your gun drawn as an answer to his firearm. You need to ask yourself in your head before making a decision. "Six or twelve?"
NOW! Since I have covered the three scenarios lets talk a second. While not impossible these scenarios are very unlikely no matter what the circumstances. This isn't the twenties where a bad smile will get you shot. Yeah we have the crazies out there but most times they are just crazy and don't do anything. As far as the BEST answer goes, it is simple. Don't put yourself into a position to be in such situations and if it happens, get away quickly and forget you saw it. In the end the answer to your question all boils down to one question you have to ask yourself before pulling the trigger in ANY scenario.
Would you rather be tried by twelve or have you and/or loved ones carried by six?
jrpeppers
Member
Those are some very imaginative scenarios but I'm not one to say that can't happen. I would not recommend tackling an active shooter especially after drawing your gun. If you get close enough to tackle him, why not use your weapon in self defense and defense of others, deadly force definitely applies at the parade. That movie scenario sounds exactly like that....a movie. The hero and the bad guy both draw down and walk in circles around each other talking, then the cops come as soon as the good guy wins the epic 15 min gun fight.
Remember, CCW is for a means of lawful self defense, not to feel like the Duke or John McClane.
Remember, CCW is for a means of lawful self defense, not to feel like the Duke or John McClane.
LemmyCaution
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I think the crux of the matter is in a badly formed question. The question, by using the term 'need' reduces the issue to a level of inevitability that just isn't there. There is no situation where you 'need' to shoot, by any objective standard. Taking a shot is always a subjective choice. When you make a choice, you implicitly accept responsibility for that choice, and others will hold you responsible for it.
Terminal ballistics, being as unpredictable as they are, make firing in a crowd an extremely risky choice. Be prepared to accept the consequences of such risk.
Or have the training, mindset, and tool set to make an alternate and less risky choice. Generally there are several available in any situation.
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