jrpeppers
Member
That's what I was trying to get at, but I was having trouble articulating my point within regs too.
What if you need to fire in a very crowded area?
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That's what I was trying to get at, but I was having trouble articulating my point within regs too.
Good little piece there except for the fact as to when has FMJ ever NOT been good defensive ammunition? Last I checked, FMJ in any larger caliber and even small ones such as the .25 and .32 are proven manstoppers. Granted hollows are as well, but the difference being, a hollow may not have ENOUGH penetration at certain distances, FMJ within reasonable distance will not lose too much of that stoppage power that made them famous. That is why armed forces use FMJ, because it is perfect for putting someone down permanently. You say my attitude is juvenile, reckless and absurd, you saying FMJ is not a good defensive ammo is what's absurd and just plain silly my friend. As for reckless and juvenile, they do not apply in any case whatsoever. When it boils right down to it, I would rather have an FMJ over penetrate through a BG and into me because it does less trauma damage and will most likely pass straight through, if I am lucky enough to have a good shooter pulling the trigger, I won't get a stomach, chest, or head hit. Yet, if you are close enough for a hollow point to over penetrate, it is either going to mushroom into the victim, or it will pass through the bad guy as a mushroom, hit the vic and them shrapnel apart inside of them. Now, which seems more juvenile and reckless? The logistics are simple, an FMJ over penetrating into a vic is a lot less likely to kill them from blood loss, organ trauma, multiple internal injuries, or any combination of the three and many that aren't listed than ANY hollow point. At least look over the entire situation before you start insulting someone.
Thanks, I am done with this thread to keep myself from saying something that will offend someone.
YammyMonkey
Member
There is no doubt that you can kill someone with FMJ, but in the context of self defense there are much better choices that have a very good chance of making a larger hole & staying within the target. I'm as big a penetration over expansion guy as you're likely to find but using FMJ stateside, when you have a choice, because it might go though the bad guy?
False, but still, it would be nice to know how someone reconciles that comment with the following two:
Your understanding of how bullets act inside bodies is pretty minimal. The greater surface area that helps keep an expanded HP inside one body will also help keep it very shallow, if it penetrates at all if it hits a second body. On top of that the skin is a very stretchy organ & excellent at keeping things like bullets inside. It is easy for a bullet to penetrate in because it is backed by the muscles & bone of your body.
When it tries to escape, the stretchi-ness (if that's even a word) will help retain the bullet in the body. Think of the difference between cutting something on a hard surface vs. facing the knife blade up, placing something on top of it & trying to cut it that way. The increased surface area of a hollowpoint makes it even harder to exit because now instead of usng a sharp knife, you're using the flat of the blade.
How can that be reconciled with the first quote again? Blood loss, organ trauma, multiple internal injuries (same as the first two by the way) "...or any combination of the three & many that aren't listed..." What, exactly, would be any other forms of trauma that could be inflicted? You pretty well covered them all with blood loss & organ trauma. The only other thing that'll take someone out of the fight is their willingness to give up & that doesn't have anything to do with what you shoot someone with.
And finally,
That statement is, ideed juvenile, reckless & absud.
From the screen name I would imagine that you're 18 or 19 at this point if you were born in 1990. You have a lot of life ahead of you so I'd suggest studying & listening more & spouting off less.
To the OP: Hopefully this is where the side track ends & the thread gets to stay open.
False, but still, it would be nice to know how someone reconciles that comment with the following two:
Your understanding of how bullets act inside bodies is pretty minimal. The greater surface area that helps keep an expanded HP inside one body will also help keep it very shallow, if it penetrates at all if it hits a second body. On top of that the skin is a very stretchy organ & excellent at keeping things like bullets inside. It is easy for a bullet to penetrate in because it is backed by the muscles & bone of your body.
When it tries to escape, the stretchi-ness (if that's even a word) will help retain the bullet in the body. Think of the difference between cutting something on a hard surface vs. facing the knife blade up, placing something on top of it & trying to cut it that way. The increased surface area of a hollowpoint makes it even harder to exit because now instead of usng a sharp knife, you're using the flat of the blade.
How can that be reconciled with the first quote again? Blood loss, organ trauma, multiple internal injuries (same as the first two by the way) "...or any combination of the three & many that aren't listed..." What, exactly, would be any other forms of trauma that could be inflicted? You pretty well covered them all with blood loss & organ trauma. The only other thing that'll take someone out of the fight is their willingness to give up & that doesn't have anything to do with what you shoot someone with.
And finally,
That statement is, ideed juvenile, reckless & absud.
From the screen name I would imagine that you're 18 or 19 at this point if you were born in 1990. You have a lot of life ahead of you so I'd suggest studying & listening more & spouting off less.
To the OP: Hopefully this is where the side track ends & the thread gets to stay open.
My vote is to not shoot. If you do shoot, and hit anyone other than the BG, then you are just helping them in their cause. Instead of spending the time thinking about what angles to use, spend the time figuring out how to get you and your loved ones out of the threat area.
I'd rather be a known as a coward than as someone who took a risky shot and killed a random person.
I'd rather be a known as a coward than as someone who took a risky shot and killed a random person.
Harve Curry
Member
Pretty far fetched situatiion. Perhaps if there was a suicide bomber like what happens in other countries, but not the USA so far.
How many people know exactly where their handgun shoots to P.O.A. at distances of 7 to 30 yards? Then be able to shoot with intrinsic accuracy under stress.
I think moe important then the type of bullet is the quality of the shooter.
How many people know exactly where their handgun shoots to P.O.A. at distances of 7 to 30 yards? Then be able to shoot with intrinsic accuracy under stress.
I think moe important then the type of bullet is the quality of the shooter.
jfdavis58
Member
Lotsa talk, some good, some just noise. The real question is what does the law in your state say about wounding a bystander?
Lets for a moment assume the situation you describe is dire and deadly force is one of only two options (the second being to possibly forfeit your life). If you deploy deadly force in self defense and wound/kill the aggressive attacker then you are a hero--this is the easy outcome. If you draw and fire and wound/kill the attacker AND your bullet passes further on an into the crowd to injure or kill a bystander what does the law say?
Oddly, this is all that really matters. Yeah, I know, you gotta live with the consequences, nightmares, public scorn and ridicule; but are you going to jail? Can the bystander or his family prevail in a lawsuit?
None of this is answered by ballistic gelatin or ammo tests of any type. None of this is settled by endless public discussions of what you might be responsible for or whatever mental trauma you might need to manage. It all comes down to what the law says in your state.
Or if you live in a state like New Mexico, what the law doesn't say but rather how it has been applied-the so called 'case law'. You will need to look it up and find it for yourself unless you got lucky with a very astute self-defense/CCH/CHL instructor (like I did).
In New Mexico the person committing the crime is responsible for subsequent damages to bystanders-the exact wording is available online-but that's the gist. Case law has held that the person defending, even with deadly force cannot be held responsible for collateral damage if his/her act was prudent self-defense. So it's difficult to be convicted of killing an innocent bystander if you needed to use deadly force to save yourself and it's nearly impossible to be successfully sued for collateral damage if your act of self defense was rational and prudent.
So will I need expensive therapy should your situation happen to me-probably. Will society shun me? Some parts will. Might I go to jail? Of course, but the facts should set me free. Will I be sued? Without question, but again the facts, a responsible judge and a properly charged jury will likely deny any large award.
So, now what? Go look up the law in your state and find the facts that really matter.
Lets for a moment assume the situation you describe is dire and deadly force is one of only two options (the second being to possibly forfeit your life). If you deploy deadly force in self defense and wound/kill the aggressive attacker then you are a hero--this is the easy outcome. If you draw and fire and wound/kill the attacker AND your bullet passes further on an into the crowd to injure or kill a bystander what does the law say?
Oddly, this is all that really matters. Yeah, I know, you gotta live with the consequences, nightmares, public scorn and ridicule; but are you going to jail? Can the bystander or his family prevail in a lawsuit?
None of this is answered by ballistic gelatin or ammo tests of any type. None of this is settled by endless public discussions of what you might be responsible for or whatever mental trauma you might need to manage. It all comes down to what the law says in your state.
Or if you live in a state like New Mexico, what the law doesn't say but rather how it has been applied-the so called 'case law'. You will need to look it up and find it for yourself unless you got lucky with a very astute self-defense/CCH/CHL instructor (like I did).
In New Mexico the person committing the crime is responsible for subsequent damages to bystanders-the exact wording is available online-but that's the gist. Case law has held that the person defending, even with deadly force cannot be held responsible for collateral damage if his/her act was prudent self-defense. So it's difficult to be convicted of killing an innocent bystander if you needed to use deadly force to save yourself and it's nearly impossible to be successfully sued for collateral damage if your act of self defense was rational and prudent.
So will I need expensive therapy should your situation happen to me-probably. Will society shun me? Some parts will. Might I go to jail? Of course, but the facts should set me free. Will I be sued? Without question, but again the facts, a responsible judge and a properly charged jury will likely deny any large award.
So, now what? Go look up the law in your state and find the facts that really matter.
Harve Curry
Member
I was in a situation in Tucson Arizona about 25 years ago. A man had taken a woman at knife point, a bayonet to her throat. It was a a side walk between a Denny's and a video store. So I was a witness to it from beginning to end. He was yelling at first then grabbed her, as my wife and I stepped onto the side walk to go to dinner with another couple. I was armed and thought about using my revolver but couldn't garurantee in my mind that I could stop the guy. He was screaming he'd cut the "B..." if anyone came close. People were everywhere all around. The oppurtuntity to shoot came and went quick and the knife guy never saw the my handgun. 911 was called by us and others immediatley, you wouldn't beleive it took 2 hours before the Pima County deputies arrived and then another 45 minutes before he dropped the knife and gave up. He was on drugs and came off enough of it to get rational in the two hour standoff betwwen us and the deputies arriving. Next day news reports said police talked knife wielding man into surrender after 45 minutes.
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JMusic
member
You have to set up your defensive situation. I've talked my way out of more thatn one gun fight. In a crowd its easy get close and slam them if there big or have buddies swim through the crowd and out the door. If they reach you prior to leaving your not in a crowd anymore and the intent has already been set. No talk just shoot until the threat stops. Do Not shoot in a crowd.
Jim
Jim
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luzyfuerza
Member
Dropping to one knee or all the way to the ground to get a shot with an upward tragectory or climbing onto something so that you can shoot at a downward angle doesn't work for me. In both cases, you tend to limit your most valuable defensive commodity: the ability to move and evade. You also give up some of the second most valuable commodity: time.
My take is that if you can't get away (backed into a corner) and you're being threatened with great bodily harm, shoot the threat, until he's no longer a threat!
My take is that if you can't get away (backed into a corner) and you're being threatened with great bodily harm, shoot the threat, until he's no longer a threat!
tactikel
Member
http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/glaser/glaser.htm
Use glaser safety slugs, very little chance of overpenetration or ricochets. Always move to safety if possible or to angle innocents out of the line of fire.
If you survive your attack but have hit one or several innocents what would you life be like? You would be alive but facing decades in jail and massive lawsuits. It is unlikely an assailant would rob you in a crowded bar or movie theater; a parking lot yes, so be aware of you surroundings, be prepared, and be careful.
Use glaser safety slugs, very little chance of overpenetration or ricochets. Always move to safety if possible or to angle innocents out of the line of fire.
If you survive your attack but have hit one or several innocents what would you life be like? You would be alive but facing decades in jail and massive lawsuits. It is unlikely an assailant would rob you in a crowded bar or movie theater; a parking lot yes, so be aware of you surroundings, be prepared, and be careful.
And very little chance of stopping a determined attacker. If you go this route, you'll be relying on the perp to mentally take himself out of the game by thinking "oh my gosh, I've been shot, time to fall down now," as opposed quitting the fight because his body cannot physically carry on.
Bishop.357
Member
Make sure you don't miss.
Templar223
Member
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Two words: Get training.
And while there may be some good tidbits in a thread on a forum on the interweb, there's probably more noise than signal here.
Get some training.
Off the top of my head, depending on the position of the BG when I fire, clothing issues, distance, etc., I'm skeptical that any good hits will pass through (9mm 115gr JHP +P+) and if they did, that they would be nearly as deadly as some crazed loon firing indiscriminately in a crowd.
Also, if you go to a kneel, you can get your rounds up and over the heads of nearby non-combatants.
And there's other tips and tricks, but I'll leave that for you to learn in a formal class.
John
Templar, touched on what I was going to say, I've practiced dropping to my back or kneeling do direct my fire upwards. That way if I miss or a bullet over penetrates the round would travel upwards. Its not perfect but its an option. Also, in a crowd the threat would likely be very close to you. If you can close to contact distance you can shoot downwards through your attacker also. Several rounds through the pelvis would prove quite effective I would think.
SSN Vet
Member
the scenario that usually comes to my mind that illustrates your concern somewhat is a shooter in a crowded church sanctuary...
mind you, I'm no expert, but frankly.... I'd be a LOT more concerned about missing and hitting a by-stander, than overpenetration with the exiting bullet striking a by-stander.
The only thing that I can think of that addresses these concerns is that one would have to be willing to (at great risk to your own safety) close the distance to within say 20' and make sure you hit center of body mass.
But if you can close that distance without getting plugged yourself (i.e. from the rear) you might just as well be able to body tackle the shooter (that is assuming of course that you of are sufficient physical constitution to do any kind of tackling and that the shooter isn't a giant).
mind you, I'm no expert, but frankly.... I'd be a LOT more concerned about missing and hitting a by-stander, than overpenetration with the exiting bullet striking a by-stander.
The only thing that I can think of that addresses these concerns is that one would have to be willing to (at great risk to your own safety) close the distance to within say 20' and make sure you hit center of body mass.
But if you can close that distance without getting plugged yourself (i.e. from the rear) you might just as well be able to body tackle the shooter (that is assuming of course that you of are sufficient physical constitution to do any kind of tackling and that the shooter isn't a giant).
Well alot of answers but I guess it would depend on the What is problem. is it just me can I get away or is my Wife and kids with me and there a chance that they will be hurt.
Or like someone else posted is it a person looking to blow everyone up. I would say if you can't get out shoot one shot at the head if you have a gun on you then you should not miss or you should not have it. They also make safty slugs I have them in 9mm+P 80gr shoots 1500fps/399ftlbs. They were made for SWATT in mind ment to break up in the person and not pass threw or not to pass threw walls like sheetrock for CQC close quaters combat. Just keep in mind always think of the gun as a last choice if you have most hand gun rounds wont go threw head shots and the ones that do should not have enough power to kill on from the other end. Except 50cal a few peole will feel that.
Or like someone else posted is it a person looking to blow everyone up. I would say if you can't get out shoot one shot at the head if you have a gun on you then you should not miss or you should not have it. They also make safty slugs I have them in 9mm+P 80gr shoots 1500fps/399ftlbs. They were made for SWATT in mind ment to break up in the person and not pass threw or not to pass threw walls like sheetrock for CQC close quaters combat. Just keep in mind always think of the gun as a last choice if you have most hand gun rounds wont go threw head shots and the ones that do should not have enough power to kill on from the other end. Except 50cal a few peole will feel that.
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