What is a good grouping with open sights ?

[Matt Dillion]

At one range I shoot at, we like to put clay pigeons on the 100yd. berm. Not sure about group size but I manage to bust all the clays with a lever action 44 Magnum with just buckhorn sights. If I put 10 clays out there usually take me about 12- 15 rounds to break them all. Good thing they are bright orange , only way I can really see them.

I guess my eyes are changing because focusing on the front and rear sight and the 3.5 inch black circle is a bit sketchy at 100 yards. I use to shoot the end of a coke can at 90 steps with open sights on a .177 pellet gun. But that was 20 years ago. Lol

 

[Jack B.]

I've always heard if you can't see your front sight clearly then you are not going to hit anything.

 

[CraigC]

A skilled iron sight shooter with a target appropriate to his sights should be able to shoot nearly as well as with an optic. It's not easy but I've shot sub-MOA with buckhorns on a levergun. Peeps are better. The trick is to have a target you can consistently bracket your front sight against.

 

[CoalTrain49]

If you want a number I would say 3 MOA, 2 with a lot of practice. A lot depends on your vision. How good is your vision? With good vision and a good rifle I would say 2 MOA is doable. My vision is pretty bad so I use a scope on every rifle I own except my M1 carbine. It isn't exactly a tack driver so I just try to keep them all on a paper plate somewhere at 100 yds.

With a ghost ring the trick is to focus on the front sight, not the ring. So yes, the target is important. You need to be able to see it well.

MOA is a measure of precision and not accuracy so I'm just using that as a reference of how precise the shooter is, not the rifle. 3 MOA is about an 3" at 100 yards. If you have a 1 MOA rifle but can only shoot 3 MOA with it then the lack of precision has to be attributed to the shooters ability.

 

[Jason_W]

My motto with non-telescopic sights is, “screw groups, I’m trying to hit targets”.

If I could consistently blow up gallon milk jugs at whatever distance I wanted to hunt at, I’d be happy. Assuming we’re talking deer sized game and larger. I honestly don’t think my eyes are still good enough to behead squirrels with a peep sighted .22 out to 25 yards like I could as a kid.

 

[bassjam]

I don't have much info at 100 yards, but 2 of my buddies and I used to do a lot of shooting at 40 yards with .22's at 12 ga shotgun hulls.

With the factory iron sights on something like a Remington 510 or Winchester 67a (both of which has a fairly long sight radius), I'd say we averaged a 75-80% hit rate. This was with a LOT of practice, I'd probably be closer to 40% now! Using the fatter factory sights on something more modern with a shorter barrel like a 10/22 carbine or a Marlin 60 brought us down to a 60% hit rate.

With a 4x or 9x scope, the hit rate was more like 95-99%. It wasn't even a challenge so we rarely used scopes.

So with a scope we were doing better than 2 MOA. With open sights, I'd guess maybe 3-4 MOA, or even as much as 5-6 with a shorter sight radius and worse sights.

 

[someguy2800]

In tems of MOA I can shoot alot better at 50 yards than I can at 100 just due to near sighted vision. Off the bench I actually shot my 1895 better at 50 yards with the buckhorn sights than I do my peep sights. About 3 moa or so at 50 with front and rear rest. At 100 yards with buckhorns though I can barely make out the target at the same time as the front sight. I can compenstate for that on a steady bench by changing the focus of my eyes, but offhand I had just as well throw the gun at the target as I just can't make it happen. Peep sights fix that for me.

The only gun with buckhorns that I can shoot comfortably at all at 100 yards is my mosin nagant I recently got, which I attribute to the long sight radius.

 

[Pete D.]

focusing on the front and rear sight and the target....a bit sketchy

It would be. The human eye cannot focus on two different things at two different distances at the same time.
It is optically impossible. Focus should always be on the front sight. The rear and the target will be blurry.

 

[Pete D.]

skilled iron sight shooter with a target appropriate to his sights should be able to shoot nearly as well as with an optic.

Yep. As an example... the NRA national record for 40 shots at 100 yards - smallbore prone metallic sights - is 400/39X. The record for “any sight” (virtually always a scope) for 40 shots at 100 yards prone is 400/40X.
FYI: the X-ring on the 100 yard A25 target is one inch in diameter.

 

[dagger dog]

A full buckhorn sight works as a ghost ring, as the tips of the buckhorn nearly touch, it lets you see more deer, especially when the deer is moving.

 

[Newtosavage]

My pre-64 Win. 30-30 wears a rear Lyman aperture and a fiber optic front sight. On a good day, using the tip of the bead at 100 yards, on a bench, I can usually hold 2-3" groups. My eyesight is 20/10 so that helps a lot.

Best group I've ever shot with open sights was actually with my CVA Optima muzzleloader using Triple 7 and saboted pistol bullets. I shot under an inch with one four shot group.

 

[Newtosavage]

I've heard the "focus should be on the front sight" my whole life. My firearms instructors at FLETC preached this and I never let on that I always focused on the target and both sights were a blur. When I shot expert every scoring round, they all congratulated themselves and told the other students that's what happens when you focus on the front sight. LOL I never told them otherwise.

 

[rskent]

A skilled iron sight shooter with a target appropriate to his sights should be able to shoot nearly as well as with an optic.

I switched my match gun from irons to optics two years ago. I still haven’t got my average up to where it was. Close, but not there yet. There are other factors that affect your shooting more than the sights.
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Pete, You are a darn good shot sir.

 

[Pete D.]

I've heard the "focus should be on the front sight" my whole life. My firearms instructors at FLETC preached this and I never let on that I always focused on the target and both sights were a blur. When I shot expert every scoring round, they all congratulated themselves and told the other students that's what happens when you focus on the front sight. LOL I never told them otherwise.

I am not sure what courses of fire are included as part of the law enforcement training program. Certainly it is a credit to your skills that you were able to shoot expert scores.
It does sound like you were/are point shooting. At combat distances on a man sized target one can do quite well without using the sights at all. Shooting at the ten inch kill zone of a whitetail at 100 yards with your iron sighted .30/30 is a different matter altogether.

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

a Tasco scope...cheap crapp....my rule like so many others, spend as much on a scope as the rifle.

 

[someguy2800]

I will never spend as much on a scope as the gun. If I did I would have less guns. There are some really nice hunting optics for under $200, leupold, Burris, Nikon, vortex, swift premier, ect... My favorite is the Luepold VX-1 3-9x40. I got one this spring for $160 new and then bought another this summer for $129 on sale. I would have no problem putting that on a $1200 gun. There is a big jump in quality from $100 to $175. I've had some nicer scopes but I didn't think they were any nicer than the midrange stuff so I sold them.

 

[Skylerbone]

We're talking about a perishable skill and for guys like me who rarely grab a rifle with irons...

My last range trip I brought along a project rifle with a fairly open rear sight and did about 3/4" 10-shot groupings at 25 yards with a simple 2" round target spot. At 100 yards I bet I could hit a barn with those sights (if it were big enough).

With a better set of irons, I was around 1/2" at 25, and the last time out with a peep sight about the same. That's with 20/15 uncorrected. While potential is there for the right shooter, that isn't me, having long ago gotten lazy with optics. Maybe with more consistent practice, but that probably won't happen.

 

[RussellC]

We're talking about a perishable skill and for guys like me who rarely grab a rifle with irons...

My last range trip I brought along a project rifle with a fairly open rear sight and did about 3/4" 10-shot groupings at 25 yards with a simple 2" round target spot. At 100 yards I bet I could hit a barn with those sights (if it were big enough).

With a better set of irons, I was around 1/2" at 25, and the last time out with a peep sight about the same. That's with 20/15 uncorrected. While potential is there for the right shooter, that isn't me, having long ago gotten lazy with optics. Maybe with more consistent practice, but that probably won't happen.

Even I can shoot minute of barn at 100 yards. Now if there were barn sized deer available. I wonder if a feeding station that would spray them orange is allowable? Just kidding, I am a paper puncher only and all my hunting is done indoors at the supermarket...I do like MO barn however!

Russellc

 

[MTMilitiaman]

With a good set of aperture sights and the right ammo and target, I can consistently do 1.5-2 MOA. This is from something like an M1A or an AR-15 that has the right set of sights and the mechanical accuracy. Aperture sights allow you to shoot better than traditional irons because your brain naturally centers the front sight in the rear aperture and then the aperture fuzzes out, removing one plane of focus from consideration. Then you just have to align the front sight on the target and focus on the front sight. With traditional irons, your focus has to constantly bounce back and forth between three different planes. The buckhorn sights on many lever guns are designed more for speed than precision. I don't have a lot of experience with lever actions. I've put a few rounds through a .44 Mag Marlin lever gun and had no problem keeping a tie-plate swinging at 100 yards, but I never got the impression those sights were designed for any more than that level of accuracy. However, I've heard plenty of accounts of people putting apertures or a scope on a lever gun and getting remarkable accuracy, so I think the mechanical accuracy is there, the limiting factor is the crude sights.

 

[Jack B.]

Wait till you are 65 all that MOA stuff will go away.

 

[Matt Dillion]

a Tasco scope...cheap crapp....my rule like so many others, spend as much on a scope as the rifle.

The cheap scope lasted 21 years. That's not bad.

 

[ms6852]

If you can do 4 to 5 inch groups at 100 yards you should still be good for deer hunting as I understand the kill zone area for a deer is about 6 inches where the lungs and heart will be. If this is not good may have your doctor prescribe glasses for long distance only. For me they work great especially at night when driving and at the range. I just bought a sharps rifle and was able to get a six shot group that could be covered with a playing card at 200 yds, this is using factory loads, once I begin to load for it I expect to get a smaller group. By the way I was using the creedmore long distance sights.

You could also consider installing a beech front sight. This flips to a blade or a post which ever you prefer.
beech-front-sight.jpg
bullard-38-sight-down.jpg

 

[wally]

I seem to recall that NRA high power rifle matches, iron sights only, the 10-ring is 2 moa and the X-ring is 1 moa. For F-class which allows optics they are half that. The winners are usually determined by the number of shots in the X-ring.

 

[wally]

a Tasco scope...cheap crapp....my rule like so many others, spend as much on a scope as the rifle.

Respectfully disagree, with my SIG 716, surplus DAG 7.62x51 ammo, and a ~$350 Primary Arms 4-14x44 FPP scope I'm hitting a 2 MOA (8") steel plate at 400 yards typically 4 out of 5 shots when the wind is minimal. Once you get past 100 yards reading the wind is your main limitation. Last time out I was hitting a 5" plate at 400 yards 1 out of 4, which is probably about right with ammo that is generally regarded as 2 moa -- I was thrilled!

 

[Pete D.]

I seem to recall that NRA high power rifle matches, iron sights only, the 10-ring is 2 moa and the X-ring is 1 moa. For F-class which allows optics they are half that. The winners are usually determined by the number of shots in the X-ring.

While the apparent size of the aiming bull remains the same across the course, the size of the rings on high power rifle matches changes depending on which stage is being fired.
The X-ring on the 100 yard slowfire standing target (SR-1) is 1.35”, the 10 ring is 3.35”. For the slowfire prone target (MR-31), the X-ring is 0.79” and the 10 ring is 1.75”. These are the reduced targets for 100 yard matches; normally these two stages are shot a 200 and 600 yards respectively.
The MR-31 target is shown in post 19.