What is a good grouping with open sights ?

[CraigC]

The cheap scope lasted 21 years. That's not bad.

I've had cheap scopes (ahem, Tasco) that didn't survive the first shot, on a .22LR. That IS bad.

 

[Skylerbone]

I'm still running a pair of 3-9X Tasco scopes manufactured in Japan, own another pair used by my 8 and 10 year olds. None compete well with a new $70 Bushnell but the 4 of them cost me that which is why I'm using them.

 

[Newtosavage]

I am not sure what courses of fire are included as part of the law enforcement training program. Certainly it is a credit to your skills that you were able to shoot expert scores.
It does sound like you were/are point shooting. At combat distances on a man sized target one can do quite well without using the sights at all. Shooting at the ten inch kill zone of a whitetail at 100 yards with your iron sighted .30/30 is a different matter altogether.

Our course of fire included shots at 15 and 25 yards using a semi-auto handgun with a 4" barrel and I'm guessing about a 6" sight radius.

On my open sight rifles, I focus on the animal and have shot deer well beyond 100 yards and have made squirrel head shots to 50 more than once. I know most people preach the "focus on the front sight" but if you do that, that brown blur 100 yards away will be nearly indistinguishable in the woods.

Anyway, you guys keep focusing on the front sight if you want. Ironically, the only place that's ever helped me is at 3 and 7 yard rapid fire.

 

[Slamfire]

What the good shooters can do is amazing. The following two targets were shot in NRA competition, a 100 yard reduced XTC match. The last stage is 20 shots fired prone with a sling, irons, in a time limit of 20 minutes, each shot fired single shot, single loading.

This shooter won the Wimbleton and placed 3rd overall at Camp Perry. He is amazing: here he is shooting a 308 bolt gun with a front aperture instead of a post.



Same shooter, different day, different load



Me with a Garand, club match, 20 shots prone with a sling, 100 yards



Club match at 200 yards on 5V target.

 

[Pete D.]

Our course of fire included shots at 15 and 25 yards using a semi-auto handgun with a 4" barrel and I'm guessing about a 6" sight radius.

On my open sight rifles, I focus on the animal and have shot deer well beyond 100 yards and have made squirrel head shots to 50 more than once. I know most people preach the "focus on the front sight" but if you do that, that brown blur 100 yards away will be nearly indistinguishable in the woods.

Anyway, you guys keep focusing on the front sight if you want. Ironically, the only place that's ever helped me is at 3 and 7 yard rapid fire.

Remarkable. You are a talented shooter. The fact that you do so well in no way changes the good advice that one should focus on the front sight.
In 1959, a guy named Tom Frye shot at hand thrown wood blocks. He hit 100,004 out of 100,010. Took him 13 eight hour days at about 1000 shots an hour.
I doubt that he focused on the front sight.
The world record for Precision Pistol is 583/600. (60 shots at 50 meters. The 10 ring is 50 mm in diameter) I am pretty sure that he did focus on the front sight.

 

[Pete D.]

Remarkable. You are a talented shooter. The fact that you do so well in no way changes the good advice that one should focus on the front sight.
In 1959, a guy named Tom Frye shot at hand thrown wood blocks. He hit 100,004 out of 100,010. Took him 13 eight hour days at about 1000 shots an hour.
I doubt that he focussed on the front sight.
The world record for Precision Pistol is 583/600. (60 shots at 50 meters. The 10 ring is 50 mm in diameter) I am pretty sure that he did focus on the front sight.

Y’know....people aren’t just giving this advice based on a guess.

 

[Newtosavage]

Y’know....people aren’t just giving this advice based on a guess.

Oh, I am well aware. But I'm also aware that people parrot the instruction they receive, and that shooters should be given options. Not to toot my own horn, but I'm a pretty accomplished shooter in another sport that uses open sights, and I never focus on the front sight then either. Tried it many times. Just doesn't work for me. So people should know they have options and be encouraged to try them, not just told over and over again that one way is the best way.

Besides, sight picture is only one small part of the shot.

 

[HB]

Off a bench with my 3030 and peeps I can keep them around 4"... But I need a 100y slow fire target to do that. If you put a soda can out there I couldn't see it well enough to shoot it routinely. If I had a tree or stand rail id shoot a deer.

I'd throw a milk jug out there and practice off hand. If you can hit it that's your deer range.

Sling prone with diopter sights I can shoot an anshutz much better, but it's no deer rifle.

The internet makes me laugh. Most guys claim their rifle is moa out to 400 yards.

 

[22-rimfire]

With my 30 30 Marlin I can keep all bullets in a 5 inch circle at 50 yards. I could probably do better, but I have a hard time seeing the notch in the rear sight. In my younger years I could keep them all in a 6 inch circle at 100.

Unfortunately, that's about how well I often shoot with open sights at 100 yds. Do better at 50 yds. I'm just not practiced with open sights in general. Honestly, I can shoot my 41 mag revolver within a 6" pie plate at 100 yds (most of the time). As said, with the rifle it is all about the aiming point being repeatable. Same thing happens with scopes where you blow out the aiming point.

 

[Laphroaig]

I had my first "clean" target at a 200 yd. GSM match earlier this summer with a M1917. Electronic targets, so I know the group was 6.01 inches, or 3 MOA. I have my 1917 set up to use the battle sight, so there is no sight adjustment. The green alphabetic shots were sighters, so there was a fair amount of Kentucky windage going on during the string. Prone with a sling, 67 year old eyes.


Now hunting situations are a lot more difficult than shooting at a stationary black bullseye. I've killed a few deer with a peep sighted M94 but have also passed up shots that would have been easy with a scope because I couldn't get everything lined up.

 

[GAF]

One can kill deer with 6 in groups at 100.

Unfortunately, that's about how well I often shoot with open sights at 100 yds. Do better at 50 yds. I'm just not practiced with open sights in general. Honestly, I can shoot my 41 mag revolver within a 6" pie plate at 100 yds (most of the time). As said, with the rifle it is all about the aiming point being repeatable. Same thing happens with scopes where you blow out the aiming point.

 

[Hummer70]

The above targets just goes to show that accomplished competition shooters are not only good but we use weapon/sight systems that are far superior to lever guns. I have owned perhaps half a dozen+ lever guns in my life (still have 3) and have never found one that was a keeper till the end.
On the other hand I have bolt guns in my stable that will be the last ones to go as I know what they will do day in and day out.
and that if I do my part they will do theirs to 1000 yards.
Had a friend who had a saying, "If it won't run chrome it." which loosely translated means just because it is light, pretty, shiney doesn't mean it will run with what a experienced competition shooter will bring to the game and the above targets prove it.

Bottom line is if you have experienced nothing but lever guns and light hunting rifles and you have a chance to pick up a heavy barrel or medium heavy barrel bolt gun or a rifle known to be a competition rifle do so. Occasionally you will get a light barrel rifle that will shoot and I have had a couple but for long strings at long range you need a heavier barrel so it won't walk when the gets warm/hot.

 

[CraigC]

The above targets just goes to show that accomplished competition shooters are not only good but we use weapon/sight systems that are far superior to lever guns.

Superior for what? Are we really comparing competition rifles to leverguns? Competition rifles to hunting rifles? Competition shooters to casual shooting hunters? Of course target rifles are more accurate than leverguns. Of course competition sights are better for competition than sporting peeps. Of course competition shooters shoot more accurately with their competition rifles/sights than hunters who'd rather be using a scope. How about we instead try carrying that 12lb competition rifle over hill `n dale? How about we try to find that 12pt buck through that tiny competition aperture sight? How about we try to get slung up when a spooked hog comes trotting through? It's a silly comparison.

 

[GAF]

The one thing that will help the most shooting with the sights that come with your lever action rifle is practice, practice, practice.

 

[flip888]

With my Marlin 336 in 30-30 with factory ammo and open sights I can get 3 inch groups pretty consistently. Sometimes 2" groups. With a scope I get 2" groups consistently. With handloads and a scope I can get 1" 3 shot groups.

 

[69Precision]

Off a bench with my 3030 and peeps I can keep them around 4"... But I need a 100y slow fire target to do that. If you put a soda can out there I couldn't see it well enough to shoot it routinely. If I had a tree or stand rail id shoot a deer. I'd throw a milk jug out there and practice off hand. If you can hit it that's your deer range. Sling prone with diopter sights I can shoot an anshutz much better, but it's no deer rifle. The internet makes me laugh. Most guys claim their rifle is moa out to 400 yards.