And that is a serious problem in my opinion. A problem with the regulation, not with the rifle.
What is the classic American rifle other than the Model 70
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R.W.Dale
Member
describe in detail why that is.
i wonder why
only a few folks have been killed. Those Victorians were known to be all about "safety first"
that are more accurate, more powerful and will outlast those leverguns especially if used.
nobody's saying they're not
I don't. But just cause I'm a fan of the rolling block single shot doesn't mean I'm gonna go into hyper fanboi mode and deny the past 150years of firearm advancements and buyer trends happened
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Engage your noodle for half a second and think about the TWO DIFFERENT directions one must manipulate a bolt. Then think about the single direction one must manipulate a lever. All else being equal and not referring to an Enfield, you can operate a levergun twice as rapidly as a bolt.
Because it's unnecessary.
Safety is between the ears. One can no more blame the design of the firearm for NEGLIGENT discharges than one can blame a car for running into a light pole.
How many leverguns have you worn out??? Accuracy is another silly subject. Leverguns tend to be nearly as accurate as your average boltgun. Not all bolts are tackdrivers and not all levers shoot patterns. Shoot enough of each and soon you'll learn that the truth is somewhere in the middle. Meanwhile, I'll keep enjoying my MOA leverguns. All the African Big Five have been taken with handguns and leverguns, how much "power" do you need???
Nobody's in hyper fan boi mode. It just gets under my skin when folks such as yourself perpetuate myths and legends due to nothing more than your personal prejudices. As usual, nothing based in reality.
Is this a serious statement??? How long ago was the first revolver invented? How old is the bolt action design? Go one further, how old is the semi-auto? What you need is a little perspective. History didn't start 50yrs ago when Stoner drew up the AR.
Ole Humpback
Member
How many people buy an AR, take it to the range, and then sell it once they realize they also can't hunt with it unless it has a 10rd or smaller magazine or is outright illegal to use for hunting in there state? I've more than once ran into those people here in Indiana, Missouri, & Kentucky. Nearly every state I've been too, even the really open to rifle states generally have one or more of the following limitations on a hunting rifle:
The guns holds 8rds or less when loaded, including the round in the chamber
Detachable mags are limited to 5rds or less
Semi-auto replica's of military rifle aren't allowed
Minimum caliber requirements: .223 MO, .270 KY, .357 IN
Specific case requirements: 50 BMG is illegal everywhere I've been for hunting, IN has a 1.16"-1.625" case length limitation on rifle rounds
You will not see a replacement of lever guns by AR's anytime soon in hunting. For one thing, most states will never allow it no matter how Pro 2A the state is. Its just not responsible or sporting to allow people with 30rd mags of 5.56/6.8/7.62 & every tactical improvement know to man in the field of optics & night vision to hunt deer with. I'm sorry, but even as much as I love my 2A rights, I will always voice/vote against allowing military style hardware to be used for game hunting. Its called hunting, not killing, for a reason. Just like fishing is called fishing and not catching. You won't get something each time you go out. Some states give you wiggle room on varmints such as hogs, but they all have the caveat of "with any legal equipment" to which there is no clear answer as it sometimes doesn't exist.
Another thing to keep in mind, a lever gun is generally a first gun for anyone. My very first gun was a lever action Henry in 22 WMR, followed by a BLR in 257 Roberts, then a bolt action single shot Model 41 Targetmaster. I will never get rid of those guns period. They are far to versatile to dump. Every other firearm I plan to buy is a falling block single shot of some sort with the exception of an FS2000 for range play & a Mod 70 375 H&H for large game to DG hunting. The Henry & BLR meet 95% of my firearm hunting needs. The FS2000 is a purely for fun gun and everything else is a niche hunting need gun.
Most people get a lever gun and use it for life. They aren't a one function gun. AR's are more of a one function gun than anything that has ever been developed for hunting. The 30-30, as archaic as it is, is powerful & versatile enough for any game, with the exception of large bears, in all of North America inside of 200yds. Can't say the same for the 5.56, 6.8, or 7.62. Lever guns already have enough chambering to satisfy any hunting need in NA and most of the world. There are you standard rounds such as the 30-30 as well as SA magnums such as the 7mm, 270, 300, and 325 WSM all of which are capable of killing bears inside of 200yds. Once you get outside of 200yds or have to deal with the threat of stopping a charging animal, a bolt action or beefy falling block is required for the powerful magnums required for 200yds+ shooting or stopping a charging bear dead flat.
There is no need for the AR platform in hunting period. Now, if we are talking sport target shooting, that is extremely dependent on the rules of the match.
R.W.Dale
Member
Ah now the Elmer fudds come out and show their true colors.
posted via tapatalk using android.
posted via tapatalk using android.
R.W.Dale
Member
MUCH LIKE the TWO DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS one must manipulate a lever no?
intelligence and civility have taken a back seat in this thread to fanboism and hunting Fascism I'm out of here
I think he was implying the up, back, forward, down, as opposed to the forward back of a lever. In the real world if your VERY confortable with your bolt i dont think it would matter. Levers do have an easier motion for muscle memory tho. As for the AR as a hunting rifle, I think its a very viable a hunting platform (and i dont care for ARs) as the lever. Should it be legal, YES!!! If thats what people want to hunt with let them. If you want fair chase we should all go back to chasing deer with pointy sticks...
Gunnerboy
Member
Craig C are you always puting down others and being a grump?
if lever actions were superior to bolt actions then they would have served until ww2 but clearly they are not, yes they are fine pieces of history and fine pieces of machinery but i have yet to see a lever action out shoot in accuracy and power a bolt action rifle. Also a fine k98 is far faster than any lever action and under a well trained individual far more accurate and dead on every time oh and sorry to ruin your little parade but ive never seen a
unless your refering to nerf guns which in that case im sorry about your experiance with bolt actions.
black_powder_Rob
Member
I thought there were AR's mags that were 5 rounders and don't forget the AR can come in many different calibers. It is very much a viable hunting platform. that fact that it is not legal has to do with politicians. (disclaimer I do not now or ever have I owned an AR platform.) As for the lever V.S. the bolt. well there have been some really good advancements in bullet tech that allow some levers to reach out there to over 500 yards easy. Don't believe me do a little research, I mean heck even the round nose 30-30 can be effective out to 300 yards with the right shooter. and when you talk in terms of speed I can and have accurate fire of all six shots of my 30-30 in to the x ring circle of a 100 yard target in under 5 secs. how fast could the bolt action do it in?
as for getting back on topic I will add that the most Iconic American Rifle design is a split between the levers and the Ar's. Both are well known around the world for being American.
as for getting back on topic I will add that the most Iconic American Rifle design is a split between the levers and the Ar's. Both are well known around the world for being American.
black_powder_Rob
Member
Gunnerboy Levers were not used by the military because of the speed of fire. it was the fact that you could not shoot it easily from a prone position and it lacked what the powers that be at the time thought. That a battle rifle should reach out to 1000 yards. Kind of funny that it then went full circle to an intermediate cartridge again.
yes the 30-30 is on par with the 7.62x39 in terms of power.
yes the 30-30 is on par with the 7.62x39 in terms of power.
Gunnerboy
Member
Exactly that is why the bolts are superior in some ways, im not saying lever actions are garbage i love them but i was making a point to Craig C that his tunnel vision views are fairly rude to some of us here so im just letting what comes around go around, and the 30-30 is only on par in power not penetration unfortunatly.
Ole Humpback
Member
John Nosler made a very good point about penetration in relation to expansion: if the round doesn't expand properly while making its way through the critter in question, its pretty much a wasted shot. The bullet must expand continuously as it moves through the critter. The 30-30 does this quite nicely on thin skinned game. When you start getting into larger tougher game, the functional kill range of a 30-30 drops well off what it can kill a deer at.
If you have through & through with no expansion or a round that breaks up on impact, what good is it? The 30-30 does have the versatility needed for an all round hunting rifle if one knows the limitations of the round in relation the game being hunted.
What distance is that? The .30WCF seemed to do the job in this situation http://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/scrapbook/first-moose-jessica-swanson
However I'm not going to promote that everyone/anyone should do the same as was done in this example with their .30WCF.
However I'm not going to promote that everyone/anyone should do the same as was done in this example with their .30WCF.
ugaarguy
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Which states do you hunt?
They make 5 round AR mags.
Which states are those? Why not put together an effort to change their outdated fudd laws?
Cool, if anyone ever invites me to hunt in Ky I'll bring my LR-308 and a 5 rd mag if my .300 AAC build isn't finished.
Who brought up anything about .50 BMG? Ever heard of bricking prairie dogs?
So Indiana has stupid laws which eliminate you from using any rifle round. A spare barrel for a T/C Contender or Encore is far cheaper than buying a lever gun, or one of the Ruger 77/44 or 77/357 bolt guns. That again assumes that you're buying a rifle for hunting, and in the state of IN.
All that aside, who said anything about hunting? Hunting is on the decline. Most newer shooters who are buying ARs are shooting tactical carbine matches or 3 gun matches, or taking carbine courses. Most are buying various semi-autos as range / plinking guns.
Lever guns are cool, and I'm sure they'll be around for a long time.
Ole Humpback
Member
Missouri, Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan.
Yes, but there are other limitation to the AR than just the mag.
Missouri & Indiana I know for sure that is the law. Kentucky is a bit of a toss up as I've not seen it clearly stated but have from experience in talking to game wardens is more dependent on who you know in a specific area. Also, some states have further restrictions and/or military concerns in the state. Missouri has very large military bases, one of which is of strategic importance and all of them butt right up against prime hunting real estate. Missouri & Indiana DNR will never change these laws period. Missouri is too engrained in historical hunting methods & Indiana is just weird. Kentucky is another animal all its own.
Its not clearly defined that you can or cannot use an AR to hunt with in KY. As I said before, its totally dependent on who you run into and where you are hunting.
I brought the 50 BMG as an example of universally denied hunting rounds based on the states I've been to. Never heard of bricking prairie dogs.
Not exactly. You can turn any WSSM into a .357 or larger WSSM. My FIL took a 243 WSSM M70 & had it turned into a 358 WSSM. Me and several people here in IN take single shot 38-55's & 45-70's and cut the cases to length. Some people even roll there own paper cartridges since the law doesn't specify the case has to be metallic. Some of my friends even have pistol cartridge lever rifles so they can use a rifle to hunt with. Plus, the law on case length may change next year to a max of 1.8" and that would mean a standard 358 Win case with .020" cut off it would be legal. There are far cheaper ways as an IN state resident to go hunting with a real rifle than custom one offing a gun, buying two guns (1 for IN, 1 for other states), or even getting a T/C with a second barrel or a Ruger bolt action pistol cartridge rifle. It just involves a little thinking.
The OP made a rather open question. My initial post to this thread had two different groups of guns, not the most easily recognized "US Gun" of all time. You do make a good point as to why there are more AR's sold each year than hunting guns.
However, hunting is not on the decline. If looked at through the lense of guns sold in a year, yes hunting is dying. However, hunting guns tend to be a very long term purchase. If you look at numbers of animals harvested each year & number of permits purchased, they are near record highs. When I was living in MO a few years ago, the average number of deer harvest was 250k deer per year with a hunter success rate of about 40%. Success rate was based on number of permits filled vs those bought. That means that an average of 625k tags were bought. I'd reduce that number by about 15% for repeat buyers for a seasonal average of 530k hunters for just the fall firearm deer season.
I'm pretty sure that is something that most anyone here can agree on.
ugaarguy
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I'm glad y'all are skirting a silly law with creative hand loading and cartridge selection.
Here's a link to a field & stream article on .50 BMG hunting - http://www.fieldandstream.com/photo...here-shooting-and-hunting-50-caliber-browning
Ole Humpback
Member
It means that the law as written makes no mention of using an AR for hunting. However, dependent upon what part of the state you are in and/or who you are related to will determine how kindly the game warden/state trooper/sheriff/police/property owner will take to letting you use an AR for hunting.
There is ridiculously good deer hunting grounds in SE KY that only a handful of families, family friends, and family members who can clearly state their family lineage can hunt (I call this "The Patience of Nobility"). I can't tell you the number of times my last name and my stating of who I'm descended from has got me access to areas that are strictly off limits to all others even if it was on public land.
There is the written law in KY, then there is the spoken law. Both carry equal weight and one would be wise to heed them both.
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Smith357
Member
The Hawken Rifle is a true American classic that boasts such owners as Daniel Boone, Jim Bridger, and Kit Carson.
There are, by far more whitetails taken every year with a lever action the the Mattel classic. If anything, AR's are a fad. A good one, mind you, but will likely be gone long before the lever action.
Also, bolt guns were used for military issue due to superior strength. Lever actions of that day were GENERALLY not as strong as the bolt actions submitted for military trials.
The AR is a fine hunting gun, in proper calibers. But to say they will replace levers, or that levers will go the way of the dodo". Really. Grow up a little and do some research on lever gun sales.
Also, bolt guns were used for military issue due to superior strength. Lever actions of that day were GENERALLY not as strong as the bolt actions submitted for military trials.
The AR is a fine hunting gun, in proper calibers. But to say they will replace levers, or that levers will go the way of the dodo". Really. Grow up a little and do some research on lever gun sales.
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ugaarguy
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What does shooting Bambi have to do with it? 50 years of military service is hardly a fad. How long did lever guns last in military service again? Leverguns do nothing better than modern semis. Like muzzle loaders, lever guns will stick around.
788Ham
Member
AMEN to that last comment! Savage `99's get my vote. The strongest lever made, those old rifles have been around quite awhile, still being used today. I've got my Pop's .300 that my Mom got him back in 1946, still shoots circles around any Win. 30-30, and out past 100 yards too. The .250 I've got in the vault is still one of the better shooters out there also. Just because Win. made more of them doesn't mean they are better!
conrad427
Member
winchester 94 or the ruger 10/22 for me its a toss up
wlewisiii
Member
Winchester 94, .30-30.
Personally, I'd put it ahead of the 70, but I'm biased that way.
Personally, I'd put it ahead of the 70, but I'm biased that way.
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