Your Sig P226 is an aluminum framed gun as is the Beretta 92FS. Both "classic designs". The CZ P01, PCR, some BHP's, and several Colts from decades ago until today are also fine examples of aluminum framed pistols. There are many others as well.
What the beef with plastic?
- Thread starter FireInCairo
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Most of the polymer hate is by older guys that either think modern polymer is the same as cheap plastic from 40+ years ago and can't possibly be used in a good gun. Truth is, while most older guys don't think poly guns "feel" as good as steel guns, any of them who know what they're talking about will tell you that a good quality polymer handgun will be just fine.
While I do have a few issues with major parts like guide rods and triggers being plastic, all of my polymer guns perform as well as my steel ones.
While I do have a few issues with major parts like guide rods and triggers being plastic, all of my polymer guns perform as well as my steel ones.
tark
Member
Plastic is for toys. Aluminum is for beer cans and Airplanes. Stainless is for surgical instruments and kitchen ware. Guns are made out of carbon steel and wood. (And then they are blued)
Having said that... I must grudgingly admit that the guns made of the above offensive materials are tougher, stronger, more durable and certainly more rust resistant than guns made of more traditional materials....
Oh, well.... it's just progress. I must deal with it....I suppose.
Having said that... I must grudgingly admit that the guns made of the above offensive materials are tougher, stronger, more durable and certainly more rust resistant than guns made of more traditional materials....
Oh, well.... it's just progress. I must deal with it....I suppose.
I love metal guns. The 1911, the 92fs, the single action wheel gun, etc.
There is nothing like a a heavy well made pistol.
That said, the polymer pistols just make more day to day sense.
I have a polymer .380 in my pocket and a nice plastic wonder nine on my hip. Nothing i would consider an heirloom, but tough reliable tools for carry.
There is nothing like a a heavy well made pistol.
That said, the polymer pistols just make more day to day sense.
I have a polymer .380 in my pocket and a nice plastic wonder nine on my hip. Nothing i would consider an heirloom, but tough reliable tools for carry.
Carl N. Brown
Member
I have a Mauser C96 with a serial num range that dates it ~1910 manufacture. Wears a new set of wood grips. But the gun is 104 years old. I still shoot it. When my H&K USP is 104 years old (about 2092 or so) will the plastic frame hold up to age and wear as well as the steel frame C96?
Zaydok Allen
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Plastic is fine. It works.
But it's souless.
But it's souless.
Phaedrus/69
Member
I think I only have two steel guns left. Since I carry a gun almost every day I can't imagine going back to a steel one, at least not for EDC. Who needs to lug a three pound boat anchor around on their hip all day when there are guns that run better and weigh just over half as much? My BHP is one of the lightest all-metal guns I've ever had but even it is kind of heavy compared to my main CCW sidearms.
HisStigness
Member
I have nothing against plastic pistols. But I don't think I will ever love a plastic striker fired gun as much as my hefty metal Sig.
ColtPythonElite
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Plastic is superior for many applications, like trash cans snowshovels. However, gun manufacturing is not one if those applications.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
From what I've seen in the last decade or so their are two types of gun enthusiasts.
1: Is the combat ready, tactical, trained up, guys that practice frequently. They like guns for sensible reasons. They prefer poly over steel as its lighter, they like guns that NEVER jam. They make really good sense, but almost everything comes back to a defensive situation of some sort.
:2 Is the group that just likes to shoot. They don't really care if their gun jams occasionally. They like metal and wood because it looks great and "has a soul." They carry a gun partly because they like their gun. They don't really care for the latest model, they rather have a nice design that's been around for a few decades. These guy don't train, they just shoot the guns because they like shooting them.
I think most enthusiasts have a mixture of the two, but leans heavily to one of those two sides, with the first being the most common.
It's just been my personal experience that I base this on.
1: Is the combat ready, tactical, trained up, guys that practice frequently. They like guns for sensible reasons. They prefer poly over steel as its lighter, they like guns that NEVER jam. They make really good sense, but almost everything comes back to a defensive situation of some sort.
:2 Is the group that just likes to shoot. They don't really care if their gun jams occasionally. They like metal and wood because it looks great and "has a soul." They carry a gun partly because they like their gun. They don't really care for the latest model, they rather have a nice design that's been around for a few decades. These guy don't train, they just shoot the guns because they like shooting them.
I think most enthusiasts have a mixture of the two, but leans heavily to one of those two sides, with the first being the most common.
It's just been my personal experience that I base this on.
silicosys4
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I don't dislike polymer guns, I have my fair share.
But after I plunk down the cash, and break down a firearm for cleaning, I like looking down at metal that has been machined into shape, not polymer that has been molded with a few tabs of metal in necessary "load bearing" areas.
I feel my money goes further when I see well machined metal.
I'm also biased by all the plastic items I've seen go brittle with age. Time will tell on that one.
Its hard to screw a lovely set of custom wood grip panels on most polymer guns.
But after I plunk down the cash, and break down a firearm for cleaning, I like looking down at metal that has been machined into shape, not polymer that has been molded with a few tabs of metal in necessary "load bearing" areas.
I feel my money goes further when I see well machined metal.
I'm also biased by all the plastic items I've seen go brittle with age. Time will tell on that one.
Its hard to screw a lovely set of custom wood grip panels on most polymer guns.
SleazyRider
Member
Hyberbole aside, I oftentimes wonder about the long-term durability of polymer . I'm sure my polymer guns will outlast me, but that's only about another 20 or 30 years (God willing, of course!). Plastic automobile parts, for example, seem to get brittle with age, especially those that are exposed to sunlight, such as door panels and dashboard parts. Ditto for plastic toys. I've always theorized that UV rays leech out some of the goodies in the plastic that gives it flexibility, but I've yet to confirm this. Of course, the polymers use in manufacturing a firearm are vastly different from those use to build Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots, but I wonder if they will eventually suffer the same fate. And unlike my Toyota Camry or MacBook Pro, I'd like to think that my Colt Trooper MKIII will be in the hands of my descendants for many generations to come.
I like my polymer rifle stocks, but don't like how they bend and touch the barrel when I use them with a tight shooting sling. Give me walnut any day. On the other hand, I don't fret much totin' a plastic-stocked rifle in the field on a rainy or snowy day.
I like my polymer rifle stocks, but don't like how they bend and touch the barrel when I use them with a tight shooting sling. Give me walnut any day. On the other hand, I don't fret much totin' a plastic-stocked rifle in the field on a rainy or snowy day.
Vodoun da Vinci
Member
Glock pistols have been around a long time...I wonder if someone with a 30 year old Glock will chime in with how theirs has held up? Maybe a picture or two?
I love my polymer guns and I'm "old"...I also have 90+ year old all steel guns that I have recently customized and carry and would bet my life on. I don't see it as an "either/or" thing at all - I like the best tool that suits me.
But I'd love to see a few pix and some input on how a polymer pistol handles a few decades of shooting and cleaning.
VooDoo
I love my polymer guns and I'm "old"...I also have 90+ year old all steel guns that I have recently customized and carry and would bet my life on. I don't see it as an "either/or" thing at all - I like the best tool that suits me.
But I'd love to see a few pix and some input on how a polymer pistol handles a few decades of shooting and cleaning.
VooDoo
BLU
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Walt Serrill: Darned few guns survive fires if they're not in fire proof safes.
I suspect that is probably true Walt. But, when I presented the Damascus twist barrel to the 'kid' I said "This once belonged to my Grand-father.... now it's yours.... DO NOT ever attempt to fire it." (To eliminate any risk of a burst.)
I can present the fire damaged metal gun the same way. I'd feel bad handing them a blob of plastic and saying "This once belonged to your Dad...."
I suspect that is probably true Walt. But, when I presented the Damascus twist barrel to the 'kid' I said "This once belonged to my Grand-father.... now it's yours.... DO NOT ever attempt to fire it." (To eliminate any risk of a burst.)
I can present the fire damaged metal gun the same way. I'd feel bad handing them a blob of plastic and saying "This once belonged to your Dad...."
Walt Sherrill
Member
Jaymo said:
Kind of depends upon where and how that plastic is used, wouldn't you say?
The comment that prompted my response spoke of a melted poly frame. A fire hot-enough to melt a poly frame is likely to also put a steel gun out of service. I'm pretty sure that the heat needed to weaken a poly-frame isn't much different than the heat needed to melt it -- so I call BS on both the original statement and your claim about weakened frames, too. Perhaps some chemists or technicians participating here are familiar with the materials can address the issue directly.
As for cars -- there's lots of plastic in steering wheels, dashboards, tubing, accessory parts, fluid reservoirs, grills, light enclosures, duct work, door panels, and shields. There's even a thin layer between the glass layers in the windshield to make it shatter proof. Some versions of the composite materials used in aircraft are polymer, and you can bet that type of material will eventually make its way into structural components in cars, when they figure out how to do it cheaply. It's already being used in the frames of the very top-end sports cars. The less costly plastics works well, cost less, reduce weight, and make service easier in many auto applications.
Over the past 20 years or so, I've seen a few guns damaged by fires. In a couple of cases they looked damaged -- but it seemed to be nothing that refinishing wouldn't fix, but gunsmiths examining the guns wouldn't give them "good to go" status. They also wouldn't even use parts from those guns. Such fires seem to be relatively rare. You don't hear about such problems on forums like this -- probably because many owners would be ashamed to admit that they had their guns damaged by fires. (Smaller fireproof safes ARE available and are NOT expensive.)
I've also seen a few guns damaged by over-charged ammo, some of it bought at gun shows from reloaders, and a few damaged using bad factory ammo. The guns in question ranged from steel and alloy to poly frames, and in most cases, the guns were all badly damaged; sometimes the shooters were damaged, too. Steel guns don't seem to protect the shooter any better than poly guns in those cases. Shrapnel is shrapnel and the slides are similar.
I am neither for nor against polymer or "plastic" guns, when they're done right. I own both steel and polymer, enjoy shooting both, and have owned guns in all price ranges. Like you, I don't think people should make poly-framed guns out to be more than they are. The same should be true of steel-framed guns, too. Just because the materials used to build the frame is steel, it won't make a crappy design a magically great gun.
If we should not make these poly guns out to be MORE than they are, I think we should also avoid making poly-framed gun out to be LESS than they are. Talking about poly guns (or any gun, for that matter) being weakened by fire damage seems to be one such effort -- the equivalent of making a mountain out of an imaginary molehill.
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Walt Sherrill
Member
BLU said:
You think that Damascus barrel is going to retain its structural integrity if it goes through a fire hot enough to melt a polymer frame?..
In one case you may have a blob, in the other case you'll probably have something like fettucini -- and the wood in the stock or grip might not be pretty, either.
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You might want to check the statistics on which type guns actually survive the most use....
Afraid I'm with PO2Hammer above.
Russellc
Well put. As to car parts, Kevlar and Carbon fibers are doing wonders. It isn't about cheap either, some of the newest materials are more expensive. Its about weight more than anything.
Russellc
Agreed. My Dewalt cordless drill, the Buick I drive and the Glock I carry are cost effective machines that I push to do a job. All are have a proven dependability that I use for certain jobs....and all are a mix of metals and plastic.
As far as polymer guns holding up with time... Ran across a firearms instructor on YT who claims he has ran a G19 to over 300k rounds. He also claims that he jams dirt an tosses it on concrete during his classes. That is a level of magnitude that none of my firearms will ever see.
A friend of mine as a gorgeous Kimber that stays gorgeous in a safe. His G17 stays in his car.
As far as polymer guns holding up with time... Ran across a firearms instructor on YT who claims he has ran a G19 to over 300k rounds. He also claims that he jams dirt an tosses it on concrete during his classes. That is a level of magnitude that none of my firearms will ever see.
A friend of mine as a gorgeous Kimber that stays gorgeous in a safe. His G17 stays in his car.
JR24
Member
Wasn't it steel that was soulless vs wood not to overly long ago? Funny how times change.
Approximately half my pistols are plastic, the other half are steel. Both make their way into my hunting, range, HD and CCW plans, both work.
My steel guns are prettier, but that's more to do with the model (1911, BHP) than the material.
I could care less if one of my Glocks got stolen.. I'd shed a tear if one of my 1911's got stolen..Zerodefect
member
I had one but:
Seriously though, I have 7000 rounds through my G23 and people told me it would be worn out by 10,000 thanks to the .40 round. It looks pretty new everywhere inside. Everyone should have a Glock and 1911 in their collection for at least a year. I don't understand how anyone could try one without the other.
Whatever happened to old Ruger plastic? That old fiberglass stuff the P95DC was made from? That plastic was as rigid as steel. Maybe too rigid? If ever there was a gun you could bury in the back yard........
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