troy fairweather
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a 358 win ar10 would be sweet.
What the hell is a 8.6 Creedmoor
- Thread starter BigDog1955
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BigDog1955
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Nature Boy
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That would be the 9.0 Creed! Kinda has a ring to it. I'm sure there's some marketing potential in it.
I'd be more interested in that than a .338 sub Sonic. At least there are bullets available for it that might expand.
MachIVshooter
Member
8.6 is a dumb thing to call it, and .338 cal wasn't the best choice, IMO.
.375 caliber would have been the smart move, could play with subsonic heavy loads up to 377 grain that poke a little larger hole, or use lighter bullets made for .38-55 & .375 Win to actually get expansion at lower velocity. This is not a long range precision round; the high B.C. of the extra-extra heavy .338 cal stuff is just about worthless at subsonic velocities (although the 377 gr .375 cal does boast an insane .890 B.C.).
.375 caliber would have been the smart move, could play with subsonic heavy loads up to 377 grain that poke a little larger hole, or use lighter bullets made for .38-55 & .375 Win to actually get expansion at lower velocity. This is not a long range precision round; the high B.C. of the extra-extra heavy .338 cal stuff is just about worthless at subsonic velocities (although the 377 gr .375 cal does boast an insane .890 B.C.).
Jim Watson
Member
Marketing, bud, marketing. They had the 6.8, now they have the 8.6.
9.5 just wouldn't make the connection, you know.
Would .375 on that case leave much shoulder to headspace in slam bang auto firing?
adcoch1
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.308 Norma
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"Now I guess you’re wondering if it does in fact perform. I’d say so, out of a 12.5” barrel the 8.6 Creedmoor with a 155GR bullet at 2500FPS brings 2,100 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle. With supersonic loads, it will outperform a 18” barreled .308 Winchester out to 300 yards."
"Using 300+ grain expanding subsonic loads, the 8.6 Creedmoor generates 650+ ft. lbs. at the muzzle and is still maintaining 550 ft. lbs. out at 600 yards."
"Using 300+ grain expanding subsonic loads, the 8.6 Creedmoor generates 650+ ft. lbs. at the muzzle and is still maintaining 550 ft. lbs. out at 600 yards."
I kinda doubt it nhcrruffler. Read it again. Your 357 Mag might generate more than 650 ft. lbs. at the muzzle, but not with a 300+ grain bullet, if there even was such a load. And a 155gr bullet from the 8.6 Creed is moving 2500fps - about twice as fast as what you can kick a similar weight bullet out of a 357 Mag handgun.
I actually don't think I would like to have "one of those." I doubt it would be much fun to shoot if it was an average sized 357 Mag revolver.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
To me, the bigger the better so a .375 would be more interesting than a .338. Might as well make it a .45, do they make those?
Jim Watson
Member
.45 spitzers not common. Good SD and BC would make for a lot of recoil even subsonic.
BPCR worked on such stuff and concluded Metford knew best.
BPCR worked on such stuff and concluded Metford knew best.
JeffG
Member
somethings that bloated big and fat and crawls along slow like a turtle
And hits like wet snowballs......
adcoch1
Member
Ask, and ye shall receive..... 45 RaptorTo me, the bigger the better so a .375 would be more interesting than a .338. Might as well make it a .45, do they make those?
Riomouse911
Member
Sounds like my .45/70... and .35 Remington...and .30-30 Win... and...somethings that bloated big and fat and crawls along slow like a turtle
mcb
Member
My shoulder hurts just looking at that. My 450 Bushmaster does everything I need a 45 cal semi auto rifle cartridge to do without hurting my delicate sensibilities or my shoulder.
Garandimal
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Varminterror
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We recently discussed the 300 Ham’r here, which is effectively to the 300blk what the 338fed is to the 8.6creed. This actually adds capability.
The opportunity for the 8.6creed is the optimization around sub-sonic velocities, but retaining the ability to run super-sonic as well (kinda, it seems). A guy can suppress supersonic 338fed, but we can’t fit most heavy 33cal pills into the magazine. While it certainly doesn’t fit in with it’s fast and flat high BC namesake brethren, the 8.6 creed does match the design paradigm - slightly reduced velocity to feed long, heavy bullets from the magazine and optimizing case design and twist rate around the application. Unlike long range precision steel games, the application for the 8.6 creed is sub-sonic, suppressed firing in semi autos for short range hunting and defense applications.
Is it a big niche? Nope. Will I buy one? Not likely. I’d buy this over another 300blk, however.
The opportunity for the 8.6creed is the optimization around sub-sonic velocities, but retaining the ability to run super-sonic as well (kinda, it seems). A guy can suppress supersonic 338fed, but we can’t fit most heavy 33cal pills into the magazine. While it certainly doesn’t fit in with it’s fast and flat high BC namesake brethren, the 8.6 creed does match the design paradigm - slightly reduced velocity to feed long, heavy bullets from the magazine and optimizing case design and twist rate around the application. Unlike long range precision steel games, the application for the 8.6 creed is sub-sonic, suppressed firing in semi autos for short range hunting and defense applications.
Is it a big niche? Nope. Will I buy one? Not likely. I’d buy this over another 300blk, however.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Did you read the article???
MachIVshooter
Member
Problem is that there are no .338 caliber bullets I'm aware of which will expand even at it's low supersonic velocity, let alone subsonic.
The other thing I see is a general lack of utility in a plus-sized .300 blk. A .338 cal bullet that doesn't expand won't offer much wounding capability over a .308" that doesn't expand. Moreover, for hunting or defense, I fail to see the value in subsonic vs. supersonic suppressed. The .300 blk is a specialized round that more or less takes the place and extends the useful range of subsonic loads in the MP5SD for combat applications where the SPL of suppressed supersonic actually matters, giving up a position to the enemy. In civilian defense, you're just trying to stop the threat, use a suppressor for your own hearing protection, so it really matters not if the report is 128 dB or 136 dB. Likewise for hunting, where the animals are going to hear the shot regardless of sub or super sonic bullets, but can't easily discern the vector, and your ears are protected either way.
Furthermore, at present, there is not a single compact .338 can I know of. The .338 suppressors are all designed around .338 Lapua, are commensurately long & heavy for coping with 100 gr powder charges. Supersonic optimized cans are less than ideal for subsonic loads, and who would want to hang a 10"+ long, 2 pound can on the end of their .308 AR based platform that's probably already porky with a bunch of garbage added to it?
People will surely buy it regardless, but I personally see this new round as particularly worthless, just a way to sell more guns, try to reinvigorate the slumped, saturated AR market.
Varminterror
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There really weren’t any suitable for the .300blk either when it launched - we futzed around with terrible bullet performance for a long time shooting sub-sonic 300 Whisper’s before AAC rebranded it, and carried the same problem for several years. The selection still isn’t great, but they’re out there. The few folks wanting sub-sonic 300blk’s can find the few bullets suitable for their need. We saw a similar trend for the 6.8 SPC - when it launched, none of the lighter .277” bullets suitable for 6.8 would expand at its paltry velocity, but after a few years of market presence, a handful of 6.8 specific bullets became available. If the 8.6 Creed gets a foothold and a few bullet makers take notice, I expect we’ll see the same shift in availability as what we saw for the 300 and the 6.8.
NOE has a hollow point 325 grain lead mold available. That’s going to out perform anything else on game for a good balance of tissue damage and penetration. But I understand it will be a little challenge for some to develop accuracy with. I’d expect Lee to put one out too if it gets any traction, probably just a long slightly blunt nose though.
But that’s a niche within a niche I guess.
mcb
Member
I posted up thread a link to a sub-sonic specific 338 bullet from Maker Bullets (they make some pretty good 300BO subsonics too). Lehigh and Outlaw bullets also offer subsonic 338 bullets. I am sure there are others I did not find in my 1 minute of Googling. There are other subsonic 338 cartridge that might not be popular but have been around for awhile like 338 Specter.
Varminterror
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Without looking at specs AT ALL, I’d readily expect the SiCo Hybrid will swallow the pressure and case capacity of the 8.6 Creed. It’s under 8” long, not sure on the weight.
So we have at least one suppressor, and as others have responded on my behalf, we have bullets.
MachIVshooter
Member
18 ounces.
I bought a Hybrid before I was an 07/02 based on all the hype around it. Let me put it this way; unless one is using it for supersonic starts-with-a-.4 cartridges like .458 SOCOM or .45-70 gov't, it's a pretty lowsy choice. It's not optimized for subs, and the huge through bore results in pretty mediocre performance with small and medium bore rounds. I stuck it on my 10mm Magnum AR, have no reason to put it on anything else. I don't know what metering equipment or protocols SiCo used to get their dB figures, but I believe they are extremely optimistic. They claim 130 dB on 5.56, but I can tell you it snaps my ears as bad as ~5" mini cans that are metering right around 140. Once I finally get the mic for my B&K 2204, I'll do some metering for myself with it. I won't be at all surprised if it registers 6-8 dB higher than claimed on many rounds.
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