What to do with the bystander?

[ilikepancakes]

I go over this one a lot in my head because I can't come to a conclusion. Please let me know if there is already a consensus of what the best course of action is.

Say you are attacked/attack is imminent and you are with a friend or loved one who doesn't know you're carrying. Maybe you just saw an old friend in the grocery store and are having a quick chat. So it's not like with your family where you've sat down and talked about "if this happens, I need you to run/hit the deck/find cover" or whatever you've decided on is the best thing for them to do.

An established tactic is to move while defending yourself so you aren't a static target. But what do you do with your friend? Is it better to move between the attacker and your friend to shield them or away from your friend to draw the attacker's attention away? Or should you give your friend a hefty shove to the ground before you draw? Or just follow standard procedure and forget they are there?

For sake of discussion, please assume the following:
1) For whatever reason this situation has not been prevented. Yes situational awareness is important to keep things from turning bad in the first place but it's not foolproof...
2) In reality if you train extensively to sidestep whenever you draw that's what you'll probably do, but lets say in this scenario you are capable of making the decision under stress. Would you act differently or not?
3) Your friend's survival is important to you .

Thanks.

 

[mljdeckard]

A good shove and "GET DOWN!!" will put distance between you and your friend. It will also alert everyone else in the area. Between shoving them to the floor and risking having them get shot, I'll knock them to the floor.

The truth is that this is impossible to say until you are there. It all depends on the direction of the threat to the friend and yourself, and what exactly the threat is doing.

 

[navyretired 1]

A solid body block and a step in front of him/her as you draw should warn and protect your friend but no absolute method of protecting him/her once your in the danger zone.
Your choice is draw and protect if possible or get shot (both of you).
The best choice would be recognizing the danger before stepping in it. Not alway's possible.

 

[ilikepancakes]

A solid body block and a step in front of him/her as you draw should warn and protect your friend but no absolute method of protecting him/her once your in the danger zone.

That's the option I was leaning toward. I was debating however whether it's better to move away and draw the bg's attention away from your friend. I guess in the end if you mess up you're both dead no matter what the tactic.

 

[David E]

Another thing to consider is that the friend may not agree with you resisting at all, much less pulling a gun, much less shooting the badguy(s).

Putting them behind you may make things worse for you and your counter-attack.

This is another reason to get away from them via stepping away or shoving them aside
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[ilikepancakes]

Ah good point David E, hadn't thought of it that way.

 

[Templar223]

Get some good training and they'll tell you what to do. Argh!

 

[mljdeckard]

Remember, if there is a threat, and you stand BETWEEN your friend and the threat, you have put them into the line of fire. Blocking them doesn't protect them from anything. any pistol round worth anything will go straight through you and wound them anyway. That is assuming they hit you at all. If you don't want your friend to get hurt, you need to put distance between them and you.

 

[.45&TKD]

I think a good variation of this question is:

What do you do with the wife and kids? Draw fire away from them if you can? Or, use your body to block for them, in addition to having them take cover? If the BG knows that they are your family, you might not be able to draw fire away. You run the risk of hostage taking or he could shoot at them for spite.

I think without enough warning to get them down and at close range I would stay between the BG and my family.

 

[mljdeckard]

My family knows that "GET DOWN!!" means exactly that. Assisted if necessary.

 

[navyretired 1]

Sometimes there are more but's and what-ifs than answers here. The solid body block and cover your companion IS a result of training and it's a natural response to protect someone who can't protect themselves.
IMHO a companion should know your carrying concealed when your out in public, if that concerns them then scenerio is a non-problem as they won't be there.
I don't mean going around telling everone, but a chance to explain is easier before a situation happens.

 

[hso]

Move away while yelling, "Get help" and drawing.

 

[MisterMike]

Move away while yelling, "Get help" and drawing.

That. Or "Go! Call 9-1-1!".

It's a bad idea to try to physically block a bullet. What works in the movies doesn't work so well in real life.

 

[uspJ]

if it's close family members you should go over with them what you would like them to do as in run and call for help, hit the floor etc., if it's someone you haven't seen in a while like the op brought up i think a firm shove and command to call for help as you draw should be sufficient, i doubt they'll stand around and watch as you pull your weapon as a hostile threat that may or may not be armed is making it's way toward you, especially if they're unarmed themselves.

 

[scarredpelt]

Well, seeing as how no one else brought it up...let's say your friend thinks you are the innocent bystander and attempts to shove you to safety while drawing. Gonna cause an issue fer sure!

Move away, while drawing if necessary. Remember that distance isn't always your friend if you and your assailant are both within the 'circle' of violence (think of aerial battle where each invert on to the other trying for the shot). Sometimes moving inside and attacking is your best option. Don't be shot in the back trying to get that distance.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Putting your friend/family in the line of fire (behind you) then engaging in a gun battle doesn't sound like a very good plan.

 

[Balrog]

It would depend on who I am with... if my mother in law was there, I'd say I have a 300 pound human shield.

 

[JDoe]

Well, seeing as how no one else brought it up...let's say your friend thinks you are the innocent bystander and attempts to shove you to safety while drawing.

This.

Also, no one I know personally, personally knows I carry (when I am able to.)

Chances are that I'm going to take the best possible action based on what I am aware of at the time of the attack and the training I have had. I don't know if there is a single best answer to the original question.

Shoving someone to safety might just as easily shove them to the ground to be an easy target so I don't like that idea. I think I would be more inclined to either get myself between my companion and the bad guy (already done that once in my life--no one got hurt) or run off laterally from my companion while engaging the bad guy. If this ever happens in real life I'll report what I did or didn't do.

 

[StorkPatrol]

Here's another variable... What is the nature of the threat? Knife threat = get between them and your friend. Gun threat = create lateral separation. --Stork

 

[navyretired 1]

If I Intend on drawing I don't expect to loose, the steping in front is the best I can do to prevent a direct shot.
Why is everyone willing to draw against a BG but expect to loose. I know my capability and think (have been trained to think) that if the BG don't know I'm carrying then I have a slight time advantage because of his surprise (recognize my failure to comply and start draw, realize he's in danger too, decide to react and then reacts) which all cause a time benifit to me as I've already made up my mind.
Now I know I'll get that "at a range when 2 people are each shooting 3 target which simulate a gunfight WRONG. In a real gunfight one person initiates action and the other reacts and reacting is not the same as two people starting at the same timer. A person can have as much as 3 seconds before BG reacts. Recognizing danger and reacting to it is not instant, it takes time and that time is your window of opportunity, use it or loose it.
BTW the only time I've evr been held up I looked at the gun and it had no cartridges in the cylinder and I've owned it for 8 years now. He was more then happy to donate it to me when I pulled my weapon (loaded) on him.
After taking the gun I called a friend who was a DA's investigator. When he got done laughing he run the number and told me the gun was clean. When I asked him what I should do with it he laughed and said keep it, he won't be robbing anyone else with it.

 

[ilikepancakes]

I like the twist you brought up, scarredpelt, as well as the addressing different threat nature with different tactic by stork.

Haha good side story navy... you basically counter-robbed the robber! Glad it didn't turn out badly.

Anyway, it seems that the best blanket strategy is get distance. Good to know, thanks everyone.

 

[shockwave]

Move away while yelling, "Get help" and drawing.

Absolutely. The person with you is useful and can be an active part of your defense. Shoving said person to the ground is not good strategy, and, imagine that your companion in this situation tried to shove you to the ground. How would you feel about that?

Even if you are killed in this encounter, the person with you can be given the chance to escape, so separate and yell "get help" is the right plan. If bullets start flying, you want this person away from the festivities.

 

[easyg]

I would probably yell "Run!!!" as I drew my pistol.

At least my friend would be on the move and (hopefully) a harder target to hit.
And anyone with a brain is going to instantly know that something is very wrong when some yells at them to run.

 

[jbrown50]

It would depend on who I am with... if my mother in law was there, I'd say I have a 300 pound human shield.

Good thing I wasn't drinking my water when I read that.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Gotta say, if you read the box o' truth, you'd know that most common defensive rounds and dang near ALL rifle rounds are extremely likely to pass straight through your body if you're hit(unless for some reason, you're wearing body armor).

Pulling your own weapon also makes you the prime target most worthy of the badguy's full attention. I'd imagine that having your friends/family behind you while engaging someone is one of the worst places they could be.

As for me, I've already told my girlfriend that if I draw for any reason, she needs to get as far away from me as possible(in a lateral direction if possible) and to do it in a hurry.

If random badguy decides to give their attention to anyone but you while you're armed, aren't they screwed?