What to do with the bystander?

[navyretired 1]

wesessiah-Your right I didn't see that post I'm sorry about that I recognized that you agreed with all but wasting time putting companion on ground. I mispoke, my intention would be to take companion out of harms way, even though I said it I really just want myself as the reactor as I know and trust my reactions and actions. Darn I don't how I said that unless it was the time, I have a sleep problem related to PTSD and I often am on the THR at 03:00 to 04:00 and am not hitting on all 7 of my 8 cylinders.
About the LEO mindset, I don't think so I've never been one I just beleave I can do more than one thing at the same time (drawing and bodyblocking) shouldn't we all be concerned about other peoples safety and not just our own. I certainly hope I would be, but never been there.

 

[wesessiah]

that's understandable... i mentioned the leo mindset because what you describe is basically what's driven into our heads.

 

[Bhamrichard]

Say you are attacked/attack is imminent and you are with a friend or loved one who doesn't know you're carrying.

What if, unbeknown to you, your friend is also carrying.. Are you now both trying to shove each other out of the way? It can get tricky if you think about it too much..

 

[2ndAmFan]

I don't broadcast to the world at large that I'm carrying but it would be a rare situation if I was with a good friend or loved one and he/she didn't know I was carrying and vice-versa. I have a several friends who have a CCPs and one of the first things we discuss any time we go anywhere is who is carrying. Usually all of us. It's just good sense to ask and be sure, and could save a life or two.

 

[navyretired 1]

I don't think I've ever been with agroup of people who didn't recognise and accept the alpha male, not that it's always me, but of all my friends know I've had the most training and combat experience. If I know I've got compentant back up the removing to safety of companion becomes moot. Most of my CCL friends all shoot together and we each know our capability. They blow me away at bench rest but I feel my handguns as extensions of my hand and brain so I beleave they would wait for my lead.
This is a discusion we'll have at coffee this morning and maybe even create some what-if tactics. The problem with having these friends we normally meet for breakfast, go to our favorite gunstore, shoot together but don't go out to movies or dinners except awards dinners for the bench rest awards.

 

[leadcounsel]

I don't broadcast to the world at large that I'm carrying

Only to THR...

 

[navyretired 1]

My breakfast mates all say same thing, If we were accosted as a group they would key off of first move ,spread-out and draw down, moving and shooting which is not my favored tactic being crippled I would stand my ground and work the reaction time dividend. we're all in our late fifties or early sixties but not slow and not inexperenced.

 

[wishin]

My family knows that "GET DOWN!!" means exactly that. Assisted if necessary.

This. If you've ever had to suddenly apply the brakes while driving because an animal darts out in front, the natural reaction for me is to put my right arm out to keep my front passenger from slamming forward. Then, the voice command immediately follows - "deer!" I think my instinctive reaction in your scenario would probably be similar. Draw, Push, Yell.

 

[wesessiah]

i don't care for the yelling "get down" or something along those lines because your family/friends may know to get down, but it also draws the bg's attention to you, taking part of your advantage away if he wasn't focused on you to begin with.

 

[Manco]

In my opinion, the first priority should always be to neutralize the BG. If I pop him first, then nobody will have anything to worry about (and if he pops me first, well, then I guess that only I won't have anything to worry about... ). Yelling out warnings may help in some cases, but then again it may prematurely make me a target, as well, so I wouldn't bother--once I start firing, then people had better hit the ground or scatter because there is no way that I'm going to let the BG have the first shot or be alerted. Besides, if I yelled "GET DOWN!" some people might get the idea to boogie, and that's just an embarrassing way for them to die.

 

[Nutgun]

I wouldn't want to knock anybody down, you just ruined their chance to run away.

The gentleman always walks on the outside if walking with a lady. That leaves your only option a doorway to throw her in. If she would happen to be curbside you could throw her between/behind a car or garbage can.

If you're walking with another guy anything goes. Depends who's where.

When you draw your gun anyone with a brain that understands what's happeneing will run. Innocent people could actually block your shot by running in a panic infront of the bad guy.

 

[Manco]

I wouldn't want to knock anybody down, you just ruined their chance to run away.

A valid point.

The gentleman always walks on the outside if walking with a lady. That leaves your only option a doorway to throw her in. If she would happen to be curbside you could throw her between/behind a car or garbage can.

All of this takes too much time and attention. If there is no doubt that a BG needs to be shot, then draw and fire as quickly (and accurately) as possible.

If you're walking with another guy anything goes. Depends who's where.

Girl or guy makes no difference to me, and that goes for the BG (bad girl?), too--whoever needs to get shot will get shot because I'm not going to let myself get shot if I can help it!

When you draw your gun anyone with a brain that understands what's happeneing will run. Innocent people could actually block your shot by running in a panic infront of the bad guy.

Anybody who takes that long to aim and fire seriously needs to work on tactical/combat shooting rather than squinting and squeezing slooowly at paper targets all the time. I can shoot fairly accurately as soon as my arms are extended, with the intention being that the BG won't be able to react in time, much less random people who typically pay little attention to their surroundings.

 

[Manco]

What if, unbeknown to you, your friend is also carrying.. Are you now both trying to shove each other out of the way? It can get tricky if you think about it too much..

What about the possibility of getting gunned down by a well-meaning stranger who is carrying and might think that I'm the bad guy.

 

[.45&TKD]

What about the possibility of getting gunned down by a well-meaning stranger who is carrying and might think that I'm the bad guy.

That's always a concern. To help prevent this always try to appear "law abiding" in terms of dress and grooming. A lot of people won't like this, but if you are dressed like an outlaw biker or a rap star as opposed to looking like an off duty cop, it increases the likelyhood of being misunderstood.

 

[Cosmoline]

I doubt very much you'll have any time to do anything about third parties. You cannot afford to lose the seconds.

KISS applies. Is the subject presenting an imminent and unlawful threat of deadly force or very serious bodily harm? If so, you have green light and should fire without delay. If you have the time to deal with third parties, the danger probably isn't imminent enough to justify deadly force--though there are exceptions (hiding in the back aisles of a supermarket being overrun).

Plan and train to make that critical evaluation with NO DELAYS, no warnings, no hesitation after the light is green. Because if indeed the threat is imminent, unlawful and deadly you either shoot immediately or get killed.

In a lot of after-action reports here and elsewhere there is a dangerous tendency for folks to act like "the man" and try to take charge of the situation by issuing commands and warnings. This sort of thing is appropriate to get the neighbor to turn his stereo down or get the kid to clean his room. It is NOT appropriate when faced with an armed attacker. Your thinking must be streamlined and logical. Follow your law of self defense and train to run through the factors. Remove all other considerations from your mind.

In my opinion, the first priority should always be to neutralize the BG. If I pop him first, then nobody will have anything to worry about (and if he pops me first, well, then I guess that only I won't have anything to worry about... ).

This logic is sound.

Put all morality out of it and think in terms of the law. So if you can get behind the threat and put a bullet through the back of his head (while he's still presenting an imminent, unlawful deadly threat), by all means do so. No law requires a fair fight. Nor does it require that you safeguard your companions.