What to do with the bystander?

[easyg]

Gotta say, if you read the box o' truth, you'd know that most common defensive rounds and dang near ALL rifle rounds are extremely likely to pass straight through your body if you're hit.

I respect the work that those guys do over at Box O' Truth, but I'm an X-ray tech who works in the ER of a large hospital, and I have seen plenty of folks who were shot with a handgun and most still had the slug(s) in them.
Leg shots, chest shots, torso shots, buttocks shot, and even arm shots....most times the bullets stay inside the person, especially hollow-points.

 

[mljdeckard]

I'm much less interested in what an ER tech sees than what a coroner sees. The ER tech sees only the failure cases, not the success cases.

All bullets are unpredictable, none are guaranteed, and handguns are fundamentally inadequate for the job. But all premium defensive handgun rounds 9mm and higher (and to avoid getting yelled at by the .380 guys, SOME modern .380 loads,) will penetrate 12" of ballistic gel, thus giving a reasonable likelihood that they will pass through a human target. Even more so when multiple shots are fired. I plan on every shot I fire going through the intended target. (Rule #4.)

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Not only that, but in a shootout situation, there could be lots of rounds fired in a hurry which is not conducive to good aim. If they miss you, and your buddies are behind you, their likelihood of getting hit is still not small. If you are hit, their odds of getting hit by a passthrough of your soon to be corpse are also not small.

I think their odds might be better if you (the only real threat to badguy) are not in line with anyone who you don't want getting shot.

 

[3:00hold]

I've had this conversation with my wife, and I'm not sure I've convinced here to get as far away as possible in this type of situation. As illogical as it sounds, I know she would want to stay to "help". Clearly some more discussion is needed because I'm not sure she would listen to "RUN!!".

If they run, even if you get fatally shot, hopefully you can still either stop the attacker or keep the bullets flying long enough for them to get away. I know it's morbid, but I think most of us would settle for that if it came down to it, especially when we're talking about wives or kids. Another advantage of your loved one running for it is that you can now focus on the threat instead of worrying about them.

 

[.45&TKD]

I think alot depends on how far away the bad guy is as well as available cover and concealment. Is he close enough to grab a loved one as a hostage? In that case moving away would be a mistake.

 

[easyg]

I'm much less interested in what an ER tech sees than what a coroner sees. The ER tech sees only the failure cases, not the success cases.

You might not know this, but Radiologic Techs also commonly obtain images posthumous in the morgue.
It makes the medical examiner's job much easier when he can see exactly where the bullets are within the body before he starts cutting.
I've obtained images on plenty of dead people, and not always gunshot victims.

You don't have to believe me, but from what I've seen, bullets don't zip right through the human body as often as you might think.



Just as an aside note, we also commonly obtain images of deceased infants to check for signs of previous trauma (old healed fractures, stuff like that) that might indicate a history of abuse.

 

[navyretired 1]

The idea that you need to tell the person behind you what to do while in a fight for your life is laughable. The only move or help would be solid body block, hopefully putting friend on ground. That's all the time I have to socialize after that it's he who shoots first and hit's wins and there is no room for vacilating it already cost 1/2 second body blocking them to hopefully putting them out of line of fire. I don't try to use my body as a bullet magnet to protect someone else. getting shot hurts alot, life or death you do the math, where should I put my concentration on BG('s) or companions safety. If I'm dead I can't protect them so they will have to fend for themselves after body block anyway.

 

[uspJ]

The idea that you need to tell the person behind you what to do while in a fight for your life is laughable.

i agree with that up to a certain point, if the person your with saw the threat approaching and then saw you draw your weapon then they should get the point very quickly to get out of there.

on the other hand what if the threat approached from behind the other person? if you said nothing and simply drew your weapon while sidestepping them you may freak them out and they may try to disarm you.

if you were to push them away and tell them to run or to look out while you drew your weapon they would most likely turn to see what they should be running from and will either run or stand around in shock and possibly get shot. that decision is up to them, your job at that point would be to neutralize the immediate threat.

 

[scarredpelt]

on the other hand what if the threat approached from behind the other person? if you said nothing and simply drew your weapon while sidestepping them you may freak them out and they may try to disarm you.

if you were to push them away and tell them to run or to look out while you drew your weapon they would most likely turn to see what they should be running from and will either run or stand around in shock and possibly get shot. that decision is up to them, your job at that point would be to neutralize the immediate threat.

This very point actually came up in conversation last night with some LEO friends of mine. I pointed out that in Executive Protection circles the response to this threat was to yell out what the threat was. (i.e. Gun! Knife! or just Weapon!) and depending on your responsibility to the principal you either engaged or moved the principal along while utilizing your (hopefully armoured) body to block the incoming attack. (sometimes it would be multiple targets and instead of identifying the mode of attack, the direction or immediate clothing description would just be yelled out, "Roof!" or "White Shirt!", for example.)

I noted that the response was similar to my training as a CO in the academy and in the CI, that the threat was yelled and then the inmate engaged. (with as little of force necessary to gain control, as my instructors would say.)

Both of these response sort of work in the general public as well. In the case of total clueless, there may be some slight hesitation but the sense of self preservation will most like motivate the person to evacuate the area. In the case of the potential for someone to attempt a disarm on you, I feel that person will more than likely have some sort of training recognizing your actions and abstain from the attempt. In the unlikely event they don't, your lateral, retreat, or advancement on the threat will hopefully take quickly and forcefully enough that the bystander won't have time to affect and outcome.

YMMV

 

[uspJ]

someone to attempt a disarm on you, I feel that person will more than likely have some sort of training recognizing your actions and abstain from the attempt.

what training would that be? if the person is not former military,leo, peace officer they most likely wouldn't recognize my actions other than the fact that i'm drawing a weapon in a public place. there alot of people who try to be "heroes" these day's especially since 9-11. if no verbal warning was given and they didn't see the threat approach they could possibly think that i'm about to go on a shooting spree or shoot them.

 

[Manco]

You might not know this, but Radiologic Techs also commonly obtain images posthumous in the morgue.
It makes the medical examiner's job much easier when he can see exactly where the bullets are within the body before he starts cutting.
I've obtained images on plenty of dead people, and not always gunshot victims.

You don't have to believe me, but from what I've seen, bullets don't zip right through the human body as often as you might think.

Interesting.... Whatever the reasons may be for that, I'm sure glad that the JHPs I use get a lot of penetration as opposed to maximum expansion, which in the highly unpredictable real world outside of the lab is erring on the safe side.

 

[scarredpelt]

what training would that be? if the person is not former military,leo, peace officer they most likely wouldn't recognize my actions other than the fact that i'm drawing a weapon in a public place. there alot of people who try to be "heroes" these day's especially since 9-11. if no verbal warning was given and they didn't see the threat approach they could possibly think that i'm about to go on a shooting spree or shoot them.

Hmm, good point. You are correct that some people have had their eyes opened by 9-11 and choose not to stand idly by when the threat appears. All they have to do is reach out and grab. Puts the whole movement thing into perspective even more so doesn't it?

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

So what's the general consensus?

After all this, I'm still thinking move away from friends and laterally in relation to badguy...

 

[W.E.G.]

In IDPA matches I usually just shoot the bystander.

 

[Ryder]

If my situation is any indication there is no time to waste giving bystanders instructions. By the time you realize deadly force is required you're already doing it. Nothing wrong with having a pre-arrangement but you probably can't count on that unless you esteblish that immediately prior to the situation. A lot of people live condition white 24x7.

My kid and I were walking side by side down a trail back to the car after a day of deer hunting. It was dusk but still plenty light to shoot if we see a deer, so we're loaded. We came around a curve in the trail and there's a camper with a couple guys standing over a campfire drinking beer about 40 yards in front of us. The trail leads straight toward them before making another turn. One of them spots us walking toward him and watches us for several steps. I am concerned because of the beer as I see he is wearing a sidearm. Just as I begin to think it's going to be safe he yells "deer" and goes for the holstered revolver on his hip. The other guy stumbles back out of his way. I assume they thought it would be funny to play a practical joke on us? Don't know, don't care.

I shoulder checked my kid off the trail, dropped to a kneeling position to minimize myself as a target, and put the open sights of a Marlin 336 on his chest. He fumbled the presentation because of the retention strap and by the time he got his act together he saw my position and changed his mind never lifting the gun more than a few inches. I fully intended to center punch him if he'd cleared leather.

In a life or death situation I can talk or I can act but I can't do both with prime effectiveness at the same time. If not for my kid I probably would have just yelled back but I don't play games with their lives.

I think the answer of what to do with your bystander is that it's situational.

 

[ilikepancakes]

Ryder, I am curious as to how you handled the situation after he decided to back down on his "joke". Did you two take a different route back to your vehicle or end up walking on by the drinkers on the regular path? I imagine it would be a stressful situation to continue on your way toward him after he almost drew on you and you had to defend like that, but at the same time he is between you and your car, so a very difficult decision...

 

[Ryder]

Shoving said person to the ground is not good strategy, and, imagine that your companion in this situation tried to shove you to the ground. How would you feel about that?

I'll have to ask my kid. I recall hearing him stumble around in the brush but I don't think he actually went down. We never discussed it beyond me cursing drunks with guns a few times while finishing the walk out.

 

[Ryder]

ilikepancakes - I held my position for several seconds to let the point sink in then we walked past within 20 feet of them. Me giving them the evil eye and the kid on the far side. They didn't offer an apology or attempt to make small talk. I didn't perceive them as bad men, just ordinary fools.

 

[Mr.Davis]

Once you begin to reach for that special surprise, the BG's full attention will be on you. Move quickly away from the friend while drawing and yell for them to run and call 911 as you do what's necessary to stop the threat. Moving off axis from your friend will provide all the protection they'll need for the moment. A shoulder check wastes a huge amount of time and will leave you off balance. Shouting alerts the bad guy, who may not be pleased that you've taken the initiative. Just move and draw, and you know where to go from there.

+10 Bonus points if you say something worthy of David Caruso while you draw, like "Call 911 and tell them we're gonna need a reservation at the ER, party of one."

+100 Bonus points if you and your friend simultaneously draw and yell for each other to run and call 911 while the BG prepares to vacate his bowels.

+1,000,000 Bonus points if you and your friend escape unharmed

 

[zxcvbob]

[deleted] (it was supposed to be funny but I realized it was just stupid)

 

[wesessiah]

The idea that you need to tell the person behind you what to do while in a fight for your life is laughable. The only move or help would be solid body block, hopefully putting friend on ground. That's all the time I have to socialize after that it's he who shoots first and hit's wins and there is no room for vacilating it already cost 1/2 second body blocking them to hopefully putting them out of line of fire. I don't try to use my body as a bullet magnet to protect someone else. getting shot hurts alot, life or death you do the math, where should I put my concentration on BG('s) or companions safety. If I'm dead I can't protect them so they will have to fend for themselves after body block anyway.

you seem to have a leo mindset. the idea is to neutralize the threat as quickly as possible, and as you mentioned, you have a couple of seconds advantage since they will have to process what you are doing, then react to it. if i can incorporate a defensive maneuver into the process of drawing on the bg and neutralizing i'll do it, otherwise you're wasting your time, and giving the bg more time to do bg things.

 

[navyretired 1]

I've read all my posts and I've never mentioned using a bodyblock to put companion on ground, but just to get them behind me where I hope they have the sense to retreat while I concentrate on the danger. If companion is knock to ground do you really think BG is going to target them while I'm drawing my weapon, I hope so because he won't get a shot off. If he has any brains at all his concentration will be on the real danger ME.
In every gunfight it's survival of the fittest, someone will be shot and someone might go home. There are no absolutes and no substitute for training and positive mindset.
You wake up ready and you stay ready till you go to sleep. Then you dream about being ready when your not dreaming about guns falling apart or running out of ammo.

 

[uspJ]

If companion is knock to ground do you really think BG is going to target them while I'm drawing my weapon, I hope so because he won't get a shot off. If he has any brains at all his concentration will be on the real danger ME.

agreed, unless the bg is specifically targeting your companion (stalker, vendetta etc) he will most likely be tuned in to the person who is moving defensivley and drawing their weapon, which would also give the bystander more of a chance to make a safe and speedy escape.

 

[leadcounsel]

Pushing or bumping your friend is wasted effort and could cause you to slip, trip, etc...

Telling them sternly to get down or take cover while you do your business - draw, take cover, etc - is the best option. It depends on how events are unfolding and whether you have a split second to draw and shoot, or a few seconds as you watch a robbery unfold. But I would tell them (yelling if necessary) to "GET DOWN" or "TAKE COVER" or "RUN" ...

 

[wesessiah]

I've read all my posts and I've never mentioned using a bodyblock to put companion on ground, but just to get them behind me where I hope they have the sense to retreat while I concentrate on the danger. If companion is knock to ground do you really think BG is going to target them while I'm drawing my weapon, I hope so because he won't get a shot off. If he has any brains at all his concentration will be on the real danger ME.
In every gunfight it's survival of the fittest, someone will be shot and someone might go home. There are no absolutes and no substitute for training and positive mindset.
You wake up ready and you stay ready till you go to sleep. Then you dream about being ready when your not dreaming about guns falling apart or running out of ammo.

i didn't type that, i quoted it, that's what you said in post #32, verbatim since it's a quote you also mentioned it in post #3. i wasn't really focused on that part in my post anyway, i was agreeing the idea is to neutralize the threat as soon as possible.