At What point woulod you draw your gun?

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Oh wait a minute I just reread your post and see where you say this happened in the parking lot of a restaurant.

That is considered private property, so unless Tom was intoxicated, injured someone in the accident or for some reason parked in a properly marked handicapped parking spot he would not receive any citations.

In GA we can only write citations on private property for DUI, Reckless Driving, Homicide or Feticide by Vehicle or if any one is injured in the accident and required medical treatment within 24 hours of the accident.

Also parking in a properly marked handicapped parking spot.

So Tom would not get any tickets.
 
Thanks very much for the well thought out answer TFW.

You wrote "Personally, Tom was justified IMHO, but based on my experience I guarantee you dinner anywhere you want if I told Bob that he was going to jail to facing more charges than Tom, unless he signed the LOP, he would sign it."

Does that mean that if Bob refused to sign it for whatever reason that you'd have to arrest both of them? Even if Tom was justified in your opinion, does the fact that Bob wants to try pressing charges force your hand? I realize that from your experience it isn't likely, I'm just trying to understand what the possibilities are.
 
No one but a judge can for the hand of an officer in Georgia, the law is pretty plain and says if an officer has any misgivings about the evidence regardless he/she is to seek a warrant.

There is no requirement for an officer to arrest in Georgia.

If Bob refused to sign what I would do in this instance is properly ID both persons, including place of work/school etc…

I’d write up the report, clearly documenting everything including the inclusion of all witness statements, then I would take everything and personally go to our DA, who is a standup guy, who will listen. He’s been around long enough to know what is what and I would go on his recommendations as to what to ask for when I went to see the Judge.

If he felt as I would that Tom was justified, he would either have me forward this case to him so he could have his investigators take a closer look at it or have me just charge Bob, with the crimes he committed and then see if he would plea to a lesser charge in court or lawyer up.

If something like this or similar does happen you need to be clear when making any statements to anyone from the cops (especially) to your lawyer that you were in fear of great bodily harm or even death.

No law can determine exactly what you feel or determine whether or not you were indeed in fear or not.

It will be up to you and your attorney to make that case in a court or to the DA.

Most of that is purely subjective unless the circumstances are clear; such as this guy is 90 years old in a wheel chair coming at you with a foam Nerf bat or something.
 
You cannot carry a gun and have heated arguements or you will end up in jail and lose your right to own guns. Are you that scared, or looking to pull a gun every 5 seconds that you get in a fight and right away want to pull your gun?? What is it with some guys that they have the right to carry, and spend their whole lives LOOKING for a reason to pull out their guns? Remember the fellow in Texas, he carried and trained and when a suspect shot some people in court he fired on the guy only to be shot and killed because the perp had body armor? You think just pulling a gun makes you invincible or tough, fight the guy hand to hand and show how tough you are. Save pulling a gun for when your life in imminent danger. You want to carry and shoot people, join the army and go to Iraq, or does the thought that someone might shoot back scare you?
 
If you carry, it is your duty to avoid and defuse problems before they develop. "An armed society is a polite society"!
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pshhawww!
whatever!!! i aint gonna be buildin no street cred if i follow 'dat route! i gots to be all up in 'dere faces representin' for my homiez, know what i'm sayin'? i gots to get the draw on 'dem 'fore 'dey gets 'da draw on me, know what i'm sayin'?

'dats why i duct tape my heater to my hand, so technically i'm never 'drawing' my piece out, its always out! plus it makes it easier to pick my nose or dig in my ear for wax, know what i'm sayin'?


spacemanbeentheredonethatboughtnotonebuttwotshirtswithoutdrawingmyweaponspiff
 
I have a problem with nothing, I am commenting like everyone else. Deadly force should be avoided at all costs, not anticipated. I am calm and totally rational, people can, and will do what they want. What, me worry? :D

(Actually I'm just trying to get to 100 posts so please excuse me)
 
Well, I guess I forgot to pickup my crystal ball when the state issued me my CCL, heck I know POST forgot mine when the issued me my Peace Officers Certification, guess it’s on back order or something.

It’s funny how some here are quick to pronounce, more or less you don’t need to carry a gun when you are going to become involved in an argument or “just†a fist fight, but confidently neglect to explain how they apparently see into the future far enough to know when they will be in given situation, so they don’t carry.

It may seem absurd, but no more absurd than those advocating not pulling a gun when the situation is very fluid, very unpredictable and the outcome is in question.
 
I hear the point being raised by TFW. But I bristle at the idea that you will be able stop a situation by pulling a firearm. You aren't pulling a gun to scare the person into backing down. You are pulling a gun to prepare to stop him. My (humble) opinion is that anytime you clear leather, you had better be prepared to kill the person that you point it at. And, for that matter, defend your killing in court. If you aren't, then it doesn't come out. You don't allude to it, you don't show it, it doesn't exist.

To get back to the original question, then, I guess my answer is: "When you think that the person that you are in a heated argument with is so heated that he is about to kill or seriously maim you, and you have no way to get the heck out of there or diffuse the situation."
 
I have a problem with nothing, I am commenting like everyone else. Deadly force should be avoided at all costs, not anticipated.
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WOW ! I could have swore you had an issue with something here ?

BTW - I respectfully disagree with the "avoided at all costs, not anticipated"

If I felt that way I would not carry - there would be no need to unless I anticipated the possibility ,however unlikely, that I may need to use deadly force.

If your more scared of the Judge and Jury than you are of someone who would seriously harm or kill you, then you need to leave you firearm at home , in the safe, and unloaded.

Personaly I will give those that have permits to carry enough credit to act responsibly. To do otherwise is insulting 99% of those that carry in order to address the possiblity that 1% may be stupid enough to do it wrong.
 
I remember my CCW instructor who was a former LEO and one time a firearms instructor for Delta Force. He told us every year more people are physically beat to death in fights then killed with a gun. Most people look at say a fist fight as not being in mortal danger but many times that is not the case. Then you couple it with the fact when he is close enough to hit you he has a good chance of getting your gun and killing you. One other thing the instructor told us is one of the major causes of LEOs getting killed on the job is getting shot with their own gun. So their has to be a point if no way out that you won't let the threat cross as far as getting close to you.
 
I respect your opinion mnrivrat, I am a target shooter/gun collector and don't keep weapons for personal defense. I can't carry here in NY, and I doubt I would as I never had the opportunity so I am not used to it being the norm in my day to day life. I can appreciate people that live in secluded or rural areas that have been around guns their whole life feeling differently about this. I'm not against carry or guns or shooting, I have been shooting for many years beginning with .22 target rifles. I think shooting is a great hobby/sport and I look forward to going to the range each week. I also feel that the majority of people issued CCW are very responsible and careful about their weapons. I do take exception when that small minority use any excuse to flash, or pull their guns, however. I still think that in all but the most dire situation of potential death or crippling injury, shooting should be avoided at all costs. No sane person wants to take the chance of shooting a person that they had an arguement with but had no weapon or intent to mortally injure. Plus, there is always the chance an innocent bystander can be hit with your bullet, I care about that. And, if you think I'm off base go read the first post in this thread again, its what I am responding to in my posts.
 
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confidently neglect to explain how they apparently see into the future far enough to know when they will be in given situation, so they don?t carry.
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TFW - that is the reason I encourage folks to carry at all times it is legal. No one can make appointements for emergencies and no one is likely to have sufficient precognition to see that ''today's the day I better carry!"

I put on in morning - I take off at night - and in between I'd say my risk quotient - on a scale of 1 to 10 is around, at worst - 0.001 most of the time!! However - should a crisis occur from which I am unable to flee - then I'd sure better know that the piece is there, like always - rather than reach for empty space thinking - oops - maybe I should have had it! Too late.

I am fully expecting and hoping that by the time the worms have me on their menu - I will never have fired a shot in anger - and I hope that applies for all of us.... every one.
 
IT IS BETTER TO BE JUDGED BY 12 THEn CARRIED BY 6

I am old fashioned but I have been raised that you only draw your weapon if you intend to end someones life, I dont believe in intimidation if I draw I am going to fire. A police officer once told me that in a matter where you feel imminent danger it is better to kill then be killed, "dead men tell no tales"
I live in washington and the use of deadly force is outlined as the use of force used must meet not exceed that of the asailent. if you carry a gun for protection then you must be mentaly ready to use that weapon should the need arise a weapon in the hands of a untrained person is far more dangerous than one who has commited themselves to use it.
 
I think shooting is a great hobby/sport and I look forward to going to the range each week. I also feel that the majority of people issued CCW are very responsible and careful about their weapons. I do take exception when that small minority use any excuse to flash, or pull their guns, however.
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Pythonguy,

I do not think shooting is just a great hobby and sport, it is a right. I am glad that you agree that those that flash guns for bravado are a very small minority. I don't think that anyone here on The High Road is advocating such behaviour.

As for when to draw a gun in sincere fear of losing life or limb? Well, that is self explainatory- when you are in fear of losing life or limb. Most juries would not agree with you if you said that you were simply arguing. However, if the other person demonstrates the intent to do serious physical harm to you, then you have the legal right to defend yourself. This may be different in different cases. As someone else pointed out, if you are rather small and a huge, strong person starts beating you, you are probably justified in shooting him even if he has no "weapon". On the other hand, I have taken punches from guys and never thought to draw my gun as I can take a few punches.

Once while I was driving home I turned left on an intersection of a single lane road. I had looked to the right and saw a car off in the distance, far away. Well, that car was moving very fast so by the time I got into my lane the driver of the other car nearly side-swiped me. Instead of continuing on, he slowed down a little and came to a stop at an angle, blocking the road. I decided against putting my car into reverse as preditor instinct is to pursue a fleeing prey. I did not want to get shot at from behind. So I drew my .45 from my shoulder rig, and sat there. I did not get out.

The other car's door opened, but the driver only put his foot on the ground. I could see a women arguing with the male driver, pushing and pulling. Eventually the driver got back into the car fully and drove off.

Had I got out, there would have been a fight, most likely with bad consequences.

Had I tried to drive off I would have initiated a car chase, again- bad consequences.

What I did was "stand my ground", as the recent Florida law has been revised to. I did not brandish my weapon, it was in my hand on my lap, out of sight.

It is incidents like this that anti-gunners never factor into their arguements.
 
i understand the concept of drawing yoru gun and it is a line once you cross you an't very well go back. What about just placing your hand on it, holding it but keeping it in its holster? You aren't drawing it but it at least lets the guy know you mean business (and if concealed he will know you are armed then)

what about that?
 
I agree with most of the posts here, The point to draw is righ tafter you have decided to eliminate the threat. I don't think I would put a hand on it unless I already made the decision to follow through with the draw presentation and engagemnet. Never write I check you are not willing to cash and showing hesitation on the draw may be taken as "reluctance" to draw by some and it definately escilates the situation in either event.
 
Only thing their I wonder what would constitute brandishing your gun? Could be wrong but I think in someplaces that would cross the line
 
Omni04 said:
i understand the concept of drawing yoru gun and it is a line once you cross you an't very well go back. What about just placing your hand on it, holding it but keeping it in its holster? You aren't drawing it but it at least lets the guy know you mean business (and if concealed he will know you are armed then)

what about that?
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Why does he need to know I mean business? He'll find out soon enough, should he force the issue.
 
Never write I check you are not willing to cash and showing hesitation on the draw may be taken as "reluctance" to draw by some and it definately escalates the situation in either event.
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ahmuqGb - small rider to that - whilst I agree re check cashing - mostly - I do feel that there can be conditions where the appearance of ''going for it'' can be enough - it has happened.

Circumstances as ever alter events but there are IMO apparent severe threat situations where this conveys a quick message - instance knife wielder at a yet safe distance - who may change his mind. Added to which the hand on piece is the start of a draw which can for most be still very quickly accomplished... it has already saved a significant chunk of time.

Heaven knows tho - no way to decide until situation is there - right in front! All I know is, if ''presentation threat'' succeeds on its own and no recourse to live fire - I'm a happy camper! :)
 
i understand the concept of drawing yoru gun and it is a line once you cross you an't very well go back. What about just placing your hand on it, holding it but keeping it in its holster? You aren't drawing it but it at least lets the guy know you mean business (and if concealed he will know you are armed then)
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In many places that would be considered "brandishing", and would get you criminally charged for such.

Furthermore, you DO NOT "show" (unconceal) the weapon unless you are prepared to draw the weapon. You DO NOT draw the weapon (or even prepare to draw the weapon) unless you are prepared to pull the trigger.

A CCW is NOT an item used to intimidate others. It is a tool that is used to SAVE YOUR LIFE or the life of another.

OK. 'Nuff said.

-38SnubFan
 
38snub - not trying to be picky and I agree with you 98% :p

BUT - my contention is - I'd rather avoid a shooting and if in the final moment when it looks like things have gotten outa hand - there just may be a chance that appearing to go for it - could defuse a less than confident bad guy - surely better all round if no shots fired - even if in places ''brandishing'' is a problem. This would not happen of course if a gun is threatening me directly... that makes decisions VERY precise ... but someone threatening with say a tire lever - lot of threat but a chance maybe to defuze.

I would prefer to explain a brandishing (if my movement toward an unseen gun was taken as such) than be explaining why the body in the morgue has several of my bullets in it!

So - no offence intended - even if I seem pedantic. :)
 
P95,

No offense taken. I agree with you totally that someone with a chain, tire iron, or other heavy object would be cause to place a hand on the firearm. Heck, if he's advancing towards me after being warned to stay back, I'd be drawing and putting that front sight on his COM.

What I was referring to was if the subject was completely unarmed and bare-handed. Only expection I could make to that is if the attacker is much larger than me, or I know has the skills to take my life with his bare hands; or I am outnumbered by a group of thugs who would simultaneously beat me to death.

Again, no offense taken. More than happy here to explain my reasonings and even "debate" them a little.

-38SnubFan
 
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