When do you draw? What's worth (gun)fighting for?

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Seattleimport

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Last night in my neighborhood a couple of guys were carjacked at gunpoint:

http://www.myballard.com/2009/04/24/police-searching-for-carjacking-suspect/

I was wondering, if I was in a similar situation and carrying my concealed pistol, when would I draw? Given these two scenarios:

1. Bad guy has the drop on me, and the first time I notice him is when he's got the gun pointed at me.

2. I spot the bad guy as he's approaching, with his hand in his pocket, and my "something's not right!" radar goes off.


I've run through these scenarios in my mind, and I'm having trouble figuring out when to draw. If I draw in scenario 1, I'm suddenly in a gunfight (and at a huge starting disadvantage). If I draw in scenario 2, I might be drawing on an innocent person... or if he is a criminal, I may just scare him enough that he draws and one of us winds up shot.

Part of my dilemma is that I simply don't think a car is worth dieing over. And I certainly don't think it's worth killing for. Insurance will cover any damage or loss. The inconvenience of dealing with the insurance company is way, way less than the trauma of killing somebody or winding up in the hospital--or cemetery.

On the other hand, it's certainly wrong to just passively let someone take your hard-earned wheels.

What do you guys think? Are you willing to kill / die for your car?
 
Based on South African experience only, if you are seated in a vehicle and the guy appears at your side window and has the drop on you, I reckon you have lost already.

In scenario two, I draw.

The stakes in SA are much more than the wheels. They might kill you even if you are out the car and have already handed over the keys.
 
This is just my opinion. If someone wants to steal whats mine they are gonna have to fight to take it. Now, they come at me with a firearm or weapon of any kiind and I will quickly dispatch them the first chance I get.
 
YA want the car?HANH? YOU WANT THE CAR??! Papers, stuff, cups etc flying all around, door gets open so I can get out and the moment the BG starts to actually get to the carseat...

BOOM. It only takes a moment. We'll fight it out in court.

The problem is I eyeball everyone within a block of the vehcile while driving and dont go into bad areas at night and stop for nothing.

Second scenario. I draw after a certain point is reached.
 
What do you guys think? Are you willing to kill / die for your car?
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I think you are asking the wrong question.

If someone tries to steal anything from you - even a stick of gum - with a threat of deadly force - you are in grave danger and must be prepared to fight for your life.

It isn't about the car - it's about your life.

I don't want the outcome to be up to the violent predator to decide.
 
If they ask for keys etc. if there's only one I will draw on them pretending to get my keys.

if my "something not right" goes off I immediately cross street (or If it's narrow alley i back away quickly) If they follow, I draw subtly and when I'm sure there's deadly threat I will fire.
 
BIIIIIIG ruckus a while back in a community with which I am familiar. A couple of the young men in the community reported being carjacked, taken to an ATM, forced to withdraw $$$ and robbed. Much uproar ensued.

A few weeks later the story had... evolved... a good bit. Seems the young men had met some sketchy characters, some sort of business agreement about the purchase of recreational pharmaceuticals was reached. But the young men needed $$$ to make the buy- I mean, purchase- and had to go to the ATM. Whereupon the sketchy characters promptly relieved them of their money, wallets, watches and car.

Now I am NOT saying this is what happened in the OP's story. But it's amazing how often dealing with sketchy characters gets otherwise straight and square people in trouble.

Moral? What John Farnam said a long time ago- http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2003/19Mar03.html . It's better to STAY out of trouble than it is to GET out of trouble.

None of the above answers the OP's question- are you willing to kill/die for your car. No, I'm not willing to kill for a car, nor would I die for one. But I would be willing to engage anyone who was willing to offer the use of potentially lethal force in order to steal as much as a stick of gum from me. It is not the attempt at theft that matters, it's the THREAT of lethal force that matters.

It's very important that everyone here be able to clearly enunciate the circumstances and reasons why they felt it necessary to resort to the application of potentially lethal force to defend themselves or another person. These things must be thought through in advance, in concordance with the laws that apply in the individual's jurisdiction.

Any situation where deadly force is used is going to be by definition very stressful. Despite this fact you will have to explain your reasons for resorting to deadly force in legitimate self defense to whatever LEOs respond the the situation. Some critically important reading is available at http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm . Please take advantage of it while you have the luxury of time to do it.

And equally importantly, prepare yourself with the necessary training and practice so that you have the skillsets necessary to use your defensive firearm effectively if you should ever have to do so. Part of this preparation is the development of instinctive situtional awareness and the ability to recognize the preliminary stages to a criminal attack before it happens. http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html

lpl
 
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I don't want the outcome to be up to the violent predator to decide.
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Well Rainbowbow, that's the thing. I think that by choosing to remain calm and walk away, *I* decide that no one dies.

If the guy's got the gun on you already, but hasn't yet shot, then there's a good chance he doesn't want to pull the trigger. If you pull your own gun, then it's almost certain that he *will* fire.

I have to assume even criminals will choose the action in their own best interests. A loud BANG and murder rap is not a good choice. But shooting the guy who's actively pulling a gun on you IS a good choice.

For example: if it's scenario 2 and I decide to draw, and then observe the other guy drawing in response, I'll choose to shoot that person dead. It sucks, there's a lot of paperwork and hassle involved, but better him then me.

Which is why I'm wondering if it's a good idea to draw at all in scenario 2. What if the other guy is just a fellow law-abiding armed citizen, walking to his car--which happens to be parked next to mine? He simply tripped my radar because he's a guy with a gun (maybe I subconsciously noticed it), and now he or I are dead.

I think I'm with newbie4help on this one, and just bug out in scenario 2. In scenario 1, I'm giving up my keys.

Why? Because if I draw while he's observing me, I'm extremely likely to get shot dead. If I draw "when I get an opening", then I should instead use the opening to flee.

Again, my desired outcome is no shots fired / no one dead. The loss of the car is a minor inconvenience.
 
Part of my dilemma is that I simply don't think a car is worth dieing over. And I certainly don't think it's worth killing for. Insurance will cover any damage or loss. The inconvenience of dealing with the insurance company is way, way less than the trauma of killing somebody or winding up in the hospital--or cemetery.

On the other hand, it's certainly wrong to just passively let someone take your hard-earned wheels.

What do you guys think? Are you willing to kill / die for your car?
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Here's the deal: My cary is insured and not worth fighting or dieing over. However, what makes you think the carjacker won't kill you?

Papers, stuff, cups etc flying all around, door gets open so I can get out and the moment the BG starts to actually get to the carseat...

BOOM. It only takes a moment. We'll fight it out in court.
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I believe that's illegal. Is a car worth $50,000 in legal bills?
 
I draw when no other reasonable alternative exists.

As for drawing on an armed attacker, one of the biggest disadvantages to guns is that we as a society are conditioned to believe that displaying one will enforce immediate compliance. When one doesn't comply it takes the attacker a second to register that fact and then react. I used to teach TKD and one of the drills we did frequently was disarming drills. even when the "attacker" knew there would be resistance the "victim" was generally able to knock the (squirt) gun out of line with his/her body before being "shot".

The very specific point I want to make here is that just because the other guy's got a gun don't automatically assume you've lost. Just dont forget rule one still applies
 
no one has said they would use the car as a weapon as well . just somthing to think about i always leave room to move. and i drive a hell of a lot faster then i run. but given the post i would say give the car up on 1 and run on 2 but never know till i was there.
 
My view on the whole, am I willing to die for my car or wallet question is more like, does the criminal think my car or wallet is worth dieing for.
When we as a society make it clear that robbery, rape, assult, and other violent crimes may come at a greater cost to them then we are on our way to making a better life in our country.
 
Hand him one of those 'I'm a Deaf Mute' cards, and give a 'sleepy-puppy' look...


In the split second he looks at the card...( then ) "draw"...
 
Oyeboten, that works sometimes because I show hearing aid and go EHH?

There is usually a moment of saucers in bad guy's mind while he processes this... unexpected complication, gun and all.

To heck with the car, but if I can get one on it, bust the back window or something and even make a bleeder... All the better for the LEO's to get him. There might even be a small GPS tracker somewhere hidden on the vehicle.

No worries. Besides we have more vehicles to drive at home and paid off on the one we use anyway.

Im insured too. I dont care about the court stuff.

The scenario as presented is very clear to me, gun is pointed at me inside the car that means I have failed avoidiance, viligance and was fat, sleepy and dumb allowing this situation to present.

No. Not acceptable to me.
 
Dave Mather successfully engaged 4 hostiles that had the drop on him and walked away.

Variety Hall Shootout

On January 22, 1880, Las Vegas Marshal Joe Carson was shot and killed by four cowboys in the Close and Patterson's Variety Hall during a shootout. Whether or not Mather was actually deputized has never been confirmed. The account told most often has him going in with Carson, with some accounts listing him as Carson's deputy, while others simply say they were together that day. Cowboys T.J. House, James West, John Dorsey, and William Randall had been going around town that day, in and out of saloons, generally making trouble. A "no guns in town limits" rule was in effect, and Marshal Carson demanded that the cowboys relinquish their weapons, to which they refused. A shootout between Carson and the cowboys started, with the marshall falling dead. Dave Mather drew his gun and returned fire. When the gunfire died down Mather was still standing. William "Big" Randall was mortally wounded, and James West was too badly injured to escape. The other two men, John Dorsey and also wounded T.J. House, managed to make their way to the stable and escape.
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When it is your time to go, it's your time to go. Might as well go with your boots on.

Supposing that there is no escape...
 
To the OP: Since our imaginations likely do not overlap exactly, I won't try to put myself in the positions you describe. The point I would make, though, is that any forcible crime, particularly one in which the perp has a gun, could go bad at any time. While I might not react by immediately pulling a weapon if I thought I was at a clear disadvantage, my belief is that it would be wise to do so at the first possible moment.

My instinct, I would hope, would be to try to do something to put distance or a barrier between me and the perp, and try to engage him as quickly as possible if escape was not a possibility. Again, my belief is that anytime an individual uses a gun in a crime, even if he went into it without the intent to use it, bad things could happen at any moment. He could be startled, he could decide you could "make" him in a lineup, or he might just scare himself. Then, of course, you might also have the misfortune of being robbed by someone who's a true psychopath, one who would abstain from shooting you only until he feels like it, regardless of whether or not you are compliant.

As for the second scenario, if you're in doubt, shouting out a verbal command, like "Stop, I have a gun!" may reveal the other guy's intent. If he keeps coming, then you should escalate. On the other hand, bad guy or not, he may back off. If you're genuinely uncertain, I'd opine that it's better to scare the crap out of someone by yelling at them than by drawing a gun. That's not to say, of course, that you shouldn't be preparing simultaneously to unholster your gun.
 
Based on South African experience only, if you are seated in a vehicle and the guy appears at your side window and has the drop on you, I reckon you have lost already.

In scenario two, I draw.

The stakes in SA are much more than the wheels. They might kill you even if you are out the car and have already handed over the keys.
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Yes...


If one has one's Engine already running, and a would-be Car Jacker is armed and at your driver's door window...if feeling nervy, and if there's room, one can go into reverse, hard, while cutting the steering so the Car's front goes 'left', and probably get him...


Circumspect and 'scenting the Winds' is always a lot better than unhappy surprises of course...


A few times, night...walking to my Car, I've had bad-vibey people rapidly approaching, ( you can feel their interest or mental intention-lock on you...) and, I raised my left Hand shoulder-high, Palm out ( as to say "STOP" by that sign-language, ) while beginning to Draw, though not drawing...but poised TO draw...with my right Hand...


So far, each time, they instantly turned on-a-dime, like Shooting Gallery Bunnies...and went back the way they came.
 
Which is why I'm wondering if it's a good idea to draw at all in scenario 2.
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There is no justification at all in your brief description of scene II to draw your weapon.

As other have opined, in scene I, your not dead until your dead, and you work the problem to its completion.

If you're threatened with lethal force, you cannot suppose there is an applicable social contract in force wherein you give the psychopath what he wants and he doesn't harm you.

It is a grave mistake to assign logical, ethical, moral thought processes to those who don't posses them.
 
I think in both scenarios the most prudent option is to simply drive away. In the first scenario, it may be more helpful to shift the car into reverse and (as mentioned by a previous poster) cut the wheel to hit the attacker with your front quarter panel, in order to:

1. catch him off guard and possibly knock him down.
2. put you in a position to run him down if he still presents a threat with his firearm (most peoples' windshields aren't bulletproof).

A car is a far more potent weapon than any firearm.
 
I just wanted to say something

"What is worth fighting for?"

I am not one that subscribes to the idea that my property is not worth dying for. It took a lot of time to build my life and parts of it when I was broke. Had someone stolen my car, I couldn't have replaced it. Why should some thief that is to lazy to work get my car? I would have lost the job I did have, and I was barely making it at times WITH the job... Rethink that to someone stealing your food or medicine that you need to make it through the day.

I plan to try to survive encounters, which means that discretion is the better part of valor, but I also plan to preserve my property if I can manage.

We are moving into a recession that could be extremely difficult. I think that some of the rich and fat mindsets that we have developed for so long will be sorely challenged. When you have to cancel your car insurance to afford your home, and someone tries to steal it, would you let him? Just on the moral principle of not wanting to shoot someone over property?
 
Just on the moral principle of not wanting to shoot someone over property?

The ONLY thing that matters in this event is LEGAL principle. A person can take their morals to prison with them, if the law in their jurisdiction disagrees with their moral principles. Each armed citizen's Job One is to know the law in their jurisdiction, and to abide by it.

In NC it is only the threat of deadly force, which would put a reasonable person of ordinary firmness of character in fear of death or great bodily harm, which would justify the use of deadly force in self defense. There is no legal justification for the use of deadly force in defense of property here, save under the threat of arson against an occupied dwelling, or against an individual who is attempting violent and tumultuous entry into an occupied dwelling.

It is vitally important that everyone here establish a clear individual understanding of the circumstances under which self defense using deadly force is legal in their particular jurisdiction. Circumstances vary so much from jurisdiction to jurisdiction that it is impossible to generalize about what is and is not legal. Every individual must know what both black-letter and case law has established as legal and legitimate use of deadly force in their jurisdiction. That education is far better obtained in advance of need than after the fact...

lpl
 
Estimating probabilities in a fight-or-flight situation is an important survival skill.

What is the probability you will escape this encounter alive by adopting a submissive attitude toward the attacker and allowing him to take your car?

What is the probability you will escape this encounter alive by adopting an aggressive attitude toward the attacker to the point of being willing to engage in a gunfight?

Without estimating these probabilities, I don't know how you make a decision. But I do think that rejecting the submissive option if there's even a .0000001% chance you'll get killed is poor survival judgment. No option in this situation will come with a guarantee.

Personally, I think that demonstrating to the attacker as clearly as possible that you are no threat would be the best way to get out alive. Just be a person he doesn't need to kill. In this situation, having studied body language and the signals it sends could prove to have far more survival value than practicing your quick-draw.
 
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