What Weapon For HD OTHER than a firearm?

HD Non-Firearm Weapon

  • Concealable knife

    Votes: 7 4.9%
  • Large knife

    Votes: 27 18.8%
  • Axe

    Votes: 14 9.7%
  • Large Sword

    Votes: 7 4.9%
  • Small Sword

    Votes: 28 19.4%
  • Hardwood club

    Votes: 23 16.0%
  • Improvised household object

    Votes: 7 4.9%
  • Bayonet or other stabbing weapon

    Votes: 7 4.9%
  • Exotic weapon

    Votes: 8 5.6%
  • Katana!

    Votes: 16 11.1%

  • Total voters
    144
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I think that almost anything could be used to damage/kill an opponent, but for me it is the defensive possibilities of a weapon that are important. (I'm assuming that I've been cornered or escape is not possible.) What is the plan when the opponent swings an axe/machete at my head or tries to skewer me with a knife ? Exchanging wounds until someone goes down is not the ideal ! So give me a baton/short sword/shield first. A knife second. Blocking is something that can be practised. The reason I suggested a flashlight is that shining it into an opponent's eyes gives me some small ability to affect the opponent from out of range (along with verbal commands). Throwing things is also a possibility. (ie that "lovely" figurine that my aunt gave me :barf: ) I'm also not neccessarily convinced that sharp weapons are better than impact weapons at stopping (ie stopping rather than killing) the opponent.

I hope a few suggestions about tactics would be ok. Take them or leave them as you choose. Anyone who has played with knives or swords knows how easy it is to be killed by them so the priority is my own safety. Keep head/neck/torso out of range and protected as much as possible. Limbs are more expendable. I will attempt to disarm/neutralize the opponent's weapons (ie by targeting their weapon hand/arm) before I get close enough to target their head/torso/neck. Good targets for cutting weapons are arteries and tendons (eg wrist) wheras good targets for impact weapons are bones (eg wrist).The aim is to break them down piece by piece rather than go for the knockout blow. (overextending is bad) Generally strikes coming at an upward angle are more difficult to avoid (try this at home) and tend to hit the legs or arms rather than the head. (here military/police/security are trained to hit below the elbow or knee - legs and arms are good targets for weapons). Actually there is no substitute for physical practice so I'll leave it there.

As far as home defense goes physical security - locks/doors/alarms/motion detectors are vital. Also the entire house is filled with improvised weapons of various kinds. As the home owner, I have the advantage of knowing and controlling the environment so hopefully it shouldn't come down to slugging it out with someone.

Oh - one last thing. Perhaps it would be better to think about a non firearm weapon that approximates my (empty or malfunctioning) real HD weapon. Since my real home defense weapon is my shotgun, it is what I would really be using as an impact weapon (as a last resort if empty or malfunctioning). Training with a hanbo or jo (3 or 4 foot stick) simulates using any long arm in this way. For those who have long arms with bayonets as their HD weapon, a spear would be good to practise with. If I were to use a handgun for HD and if I were to carry something in my other hand then I would probably want a flashlight or cell phone rather than a knife. If the handgun malfunctioned then it could still be used as a short club (eg jutte or sap).
 
Hey everyone. Speaking as an armchair swordsman I'd go with a short sword. Probably a gladius or maybe a grosse-messer(falchion). From what I understand if the blade pierces 2" into the body, they're down if not dead, though I wouldn't want to find out. Come to think about it a grosse-messer may be better as it's capable of devestating cuts(severing limbs), and the clip point should be good enough as it's unlikely armor would be involved.

Some of the best makers of functional swords would be Angus Trim, Albion Swords, and Arms and Armor. Also Paul Chen and Cold Steel are more affordable functionals.

Martial artists seem to agree that you can't learn martial arts or swordsmanship from a book, and I'd have to agree. However I feel a few books educated me from nothing to very little(though for all I know I've started bad habits). Medieval Sword and Shield would probably be most applicable to short swords.

For actual places to learn I'd think Filipino martial arts might be good if there's anything around your area. For European martial arts there might be an ARMA study group near. They seem to do mostly longsword, but it looks like they also practice some dagger, wrestling, and single handed sword. Of course for Japanese there's kendo, kenjutsu, and iaido.

Cheers!
 
My backup weapon of choice around the house is a large (aren't they all?) well made (they all aren't) bowie.

Target the neck. Sure you can amputate limbs or eviscerate with ease but why take chances? Once that edge touches neck it's game over. The bowie carries a lot of momentum and doesn't require much effort to operate. Heads might as well be attached to bodies with warm butter.

I don't see Stab-vs-Swing as much of an issue with my knife.
 
more on swords

(After a five hour problem with Norton Antivirus {talk about home defense}, it's now back to more interesting (and less frustrating) things....)

OK, you sword guys have my attention. Not sure I'll invest, but dang, it appeals somehow, maybe with a book & a class or six. (Must be me Scottish genes...).

Burt Blade: good point re the savagery necessary. Point taken.

JShirley: also good point about choping with the Kuks. I confess, as formidable as they look, I'm still leaning towards a more traditional sword. Something about my European heritage, I guess.

Wizard, yeah I see your point about the flashlight now. Guess I missed that one before. Interesting point also about training with empty weapons or something similar. Hadn't thought of that.

Moples, i see that's your first post. Welcome to THR. You'll probably like it here. I'm sure hooked. (I just came in looking for advice about an HD shotgun, and have wound up upgrading my handgun to a Kahr K9 and now looking at swords. Geez, what's next: a tank? :D )

Thanks also for the suggestions about sword makers. I'd done a google earlier today, but found only Cold Steel. Very helpful to compare the companies, models, prices (! wow, some of those guys have some pretty pricey blades, though I'm sure they're justified even if not quite in my budget...)

So far, I'm liking the Cold Steel Naval Dirk & their Scottish Dirk, along with the Angus Trim 1425 & 1427.

http://www.allsaintsblades.com/at1425.htm

http://www.allsaintsblades.com/at1427.htm

The latter are definitely more pricey, but ... i guess you get what you pay for.

I'm curious, Moples, if you don't mind: what is it about the gladius and falchion specifically that gets your vote (or is it more about the length than those specific styles)?

And, you mentioned a book: although i take your point about their limited use, i still love to read, and it's nice to get an overview of training in a book before actually persuing a class. Do you have one or two you'd recommend?

Cheers.
 
Coming from someone who has formally studied sword work...try using a baseball bat or large stick indoors. This will give you an idea of how hard it is to swing around in a hallway, overhead, etc.
 
Assuming I have time to pick and choose, I'd probably find myself doing the Patriot thing with a VTAC tomahawk and a Ka-Bar (yeah, right :rolleyes: ) Failing that, the corner of my bedroom is home to various blunt trauma instruments; pipe wrench, rebar, four feet of aluminum barstock, etc. A ten pound cast iron dumbell would cave a skull nicely. Unweildy as all get out, though. I have a trigger start MAPP blowtorch that might work well in a psycological sense; people generally try to avoid near-instant third degree burns. Of course, setting the drapes ablaze would be bad.

Those are all bump-in-the-night invasaion-by-zombie-ninjas I'm-a-real-Hollywood-badass type options. In a more realistic sense, I'd probably be using my Police model Spyderco. Four inch blade, very sharp n' pointy. It's a near constant companion, and familiar to me. I imagine it would do a heck of a job on squishy goblin bits; liver, bladder, kidneys, subclavian arteries, etc. Insert, twist, withdraw, repeat. Beyond that, I'll be using whatever I can pick up and hurl at a high rate of speed.
 
Hey, folks, what's the name of the Filipino weapons maker/importer? I remember them as being pretty reasonable in both price and quality.

The Cold Steel assegai with the short haft seems like a great "short sword" for a low price, if they're still available. Perhaps ebay, if they're no longer being made? The Zulus were really onto something with the short haft/large spear head idea.

One other advantage of a sword is that it can be used through a small space, like when someone is breaking in through a bedroom door. Imagine someone who's busted out a chunk of a hollow-core bedroom or bathroom a door and is reaching in to unlock the door. If you are in fear for your life at that moment (and I sure would be), you could possibly stop them with a quick poke through the opening, or a fast poke or slash at the intruding hand/arm.

I want to stop someone with minimal force, and I think a sword lends itself to that. What's going to look worse in court: a single (though serious or even fatal) sword wound, or 10 or 15 smacks with an impact weapon or 20-30 stabs from a small knife? I also think I'd expose myself less in making one or two wounds than in striking several times.

For me, the best option is if the person realizes they've bitten off more than they can chew, and they run away unhurt. I'll file a police report and count myself lucky.

All that said, my prefered HD tool is still a shotgun or handgun. A sword could work, though.

Dirty Bob
 
one of these
http://www.caslerhardware.com/shop/item/deathsticktitaniumsmoothface18curved.html

got the tactical name and everything...Ayoob would butt-burp in his pants over it.

<img src=http://www.toolmarts.com/media/don24sbig.gif>

But from a tactical point of view, not much beats it. Able to be used in close quarters, light wieght but from personal experience, any one hit with one, loses the will to fight pretty quick. A half turn in your hand and you can DRIVE a 2 1/2 inch pair of penetrators into what ever you want. I often sleep with one of these, (same basic thing just not titanium) when i have to travel to NYC Or Boston. The Airlines used to even let me carry it on. If not a hammer or riggers axe, then i would do with what most of the third world does and sleep with a machete.
 
Very, very cool. Now we know what Darth Vader uses when he's framing a house! :D

Hammers, hatchets, pry bars, all that stuff is useful, and even a college student in on-campus housing could have a toolbox with a few simple "carpentry" tools, such as a hammer and short pry bar.

I'll stay with my short sword, though, if I ever need to get medieval on someone's posterior.

I also have a Cold Steel mace, picked up on closeout for the paltry sum of $30. Now that's a scary monster! One good ::SMACK:: is probably all that would be needed!

All my best,
Dirty Bob
 
John,

It wasn't Valiant, but some other company. I'll have to look into Valiant from home: the golok sounds like fun. The name of the company escapes me at the moment, but they sold a lot of bolos and other edged tools. I've handled the bolo, and I was impressed. Of course, one doesn't need a high-end blade for home defense, just a sturdy one!

Dirty Bob
 
sword forum international

OK, so given that you guys (using the term in a unisex sense, with respect to the women in this forum) have gotten me interested in swords {dammit!}, especially short ones like Dirks, i've been on a hunt for sword info for the last couple of days.

i've googled and google, especially looking for sword instruction information, e.g, classes in sword use (safety, basic defense, fighting, classes...).

Finally, I scored: Sword Forum International.

After spending the last three hours or so reading their forum, it seems to me that they are to swords what THR is to guns: moderated, informative, intelligent...

There's even an interesting subforum specifically for newbies called Beginner's Sword Forum with really informative and useful info about training (do's and don'ts to avoid removing your arm), what to watch out for in buying swords, etc.

I can see i'm going to be spending some time reading that forum.

I'm really intrigued by the idea of sword. Part of it is, again, from my interest in my own heritage: my genes are mostly from the British Isles (Scotch, Irish, English mostly). Partly also from my interest in ancient human history; some of my favorite films of recent years have included Braveheart & Gladiator. (Yes, idealized Hollywood glorifications of myth, but hey...).

But I'm also interested in this concept: if we get to a real TEOTWAWKI situation, say caused by "petrocollapse " (when we run out of petroleum, which is seeming increasingly likely now), it seems possible (I didn't say probable) that firearms and ammunition could become somewhat less prevalent and available than now. In such a case, a renewal of some of the arts and sciences of more ancient weapons - like swords - could be useful.

I dunno, just thinking out loud. Maybe fantasizing about swashbuckling roadwarrior cultures too much, but given the crap that went down in NOLA, maybe not....

NemA~
 
Ryder, any advice about specific makers? Blade sizes, or is that pretty standard?

Bowies come in a wide variety of shapes and sizes. I scratch my head at some of things I've seen labeled bowie. I like swords too but carry one around with you for a day to see why they are impractical. Keeping it handy is the key to usefulness for me. My swords stay in the safe, my knife gets around.

I'm no expert on bowies but have had many knives and I know what I like. Others may like something else, that is fine by me. :) I'd not want to recommend a specific maker, there are so many that do excellent work. I can't even remember the name on mine. Bought 20 years ago, it was advertised as a collectors piece and expected to appreciate greatly in value but I just use it. It can not be found in a search of the internet so is apparently rare in this configuration. It is the most expensive knife I've bought. Buying a knive does seem to be a case of getting what you pay for. That $12 bowie in the back of the sporting goods mag is not going to be as useful to you as a $150 knife bought from a dealer in the long run.

Mine is single edged surgical steel. The handle is black rubber (kraton?) finger grooved and checkered sides No teeth on the spine but a false edge on the reverse point. No sweeping french curves on the edge. No humongous gaurd or butt cap. Blade is approximately 1/4" at it's thickest. When carried in it's sheath (black ballistic nylon?) on my belt it shows 4" below an M65 field jacket and so is about 4" above my knee. I wear it infrequently since I carry a pistol and it is just kept handy in the home.
 
Well, If there's not firearm allowed, I'd have to go with a cross-bow or compound bow. If somebody's in my home, I don't want them getting close enough to do damage to me. Distance is your best friend.
 
If I understand thee forthright... thou would ask... when all musklet shot has been loosed, brace o' pistols emptied... and still... some fool (suriviving by some miraculous intervention of the four winds no doubt) finding his way through that great pall of smoke to accost one such as meself... what were I to use?

Call it hangar or cuttoe good dogs, sharp steel designed with close quarters in mind... that failing a stout dirk or belaying pin is always handy on me way to retrieve me boarding axe. Meat and bone shall know the taste of iron in one form or another... the ravens won't care how your blood was spilled.

That or I'll sic the parrot on them.

:scrutiny:

In all seriousness there IS a cutlass and an axe in my bedroom. My 'dirk' is a Bagwell "Plainsman" bowie knife... wicked sharp I assure you.
 
I can think of one use for swords, et. al., in light of the recent problems in NOLA. Your neighborhood is quiet and dark, and someone breaks in. With no police or phones available, a sword or assegai would let you have a semi-quiet self-defense option.

I can see it now: kata for sword and pistol!

Dirty Bob
 
Thanks for the welcome Nem.

Yeah I mention gladius because of the length, although other types could serve the purpose just as well or better. The falchion though I guess I really just like the look of.

I liked Medieval Sword and Shield. It does a good job of going through some of the basics like footwork, and distance. It's more about sword and buckler, though I'd guess a good portion of the techniques could be used with bigger shields.

Fighting with the German Longsword is very good if your interested in the longsword. They put drills throughout the book, with later ones requiring 2 people I think. Unfortunately I can't find my copy to confirm.

Just to put another one out there, The Swordsman's Companion seems to be well liked by the guy's at myarmoury.com. I've never read any of it but I think it's more about Italian Longsword.

Anyway, yall have a good one.
Cheers!
 
Don't forget the original purpose of the sword you choose!

A lot of the swords out there were designed to be used with shield and/or armor. They're heavy enough to strike a telling blow, even against armor. When doing "sword and board" in the SCA, I had a shield and armor, along with footwork, for defense. My sword didn't have to come back to a ready position after a strike and could flow into another attack.

In the kind of uses we're discussing here, a quicker sword is desired, so you can lash out and instantly have the weapon back on guard, if needed. For this, I think something in the size/shape of a gladius is about perfect.

Regards,
Dirty Bob
 
I would go with my Hawk and Knife ala Patriot style.


The BG gets about 15'-20' away the hawk is flying and smacking that guy COM. I do know how to throw a hawk. Then the throwing knife goes, after that my 4 in buck knife and 4 cell mag light.
 
I LOVE swords. I study their use and I even do tameshigiri and iaido. But let's not be silly and think up far-fetched situations where they could be used in SD. We're not going to be poking people through doors, throwing hawks at them then transitioning to a Buck and a flashlight combo, or using a sword with a 39" blade in self defense. :banghead:
 
in a crowded situation...

I LOVE swords. I study their use and I even do tameshigiri and iaido. But let's not be silly and think up far-fetched situations where they could be used in SD.
I beg to differ.

When I was the Electronics Readiness Officer of a ship in San Diego, I lived in an apartment complex. I had neighbors in four directions. I had a .45 pistol and a shotgun, but I kept a bokken, a length of redwood 2x4 (leftover from building a desk), and a few knives, as my first choices for home defense. I was too concerned about endangering my neighbors by putting a bullet through a wall into another apartment. I knew that I could control the small space around my front door with a contact weapon.

Likewise, in Oakland, CA in grad school at Berkeley, I always answered the door (after looking, of course) with a Gerber Mk II dagger in my waistband at 4:00, covered by a loose flannel shirt. In the close quarters at the doorway, I was willing to use a contact weapon. We had a large apartment complex across the street, and any stray bullets would have probably ended up in someone's living room.

Is a knife or bokken or club or sword as effective as a firearm? I don't think so, but there are situations in which I have been unwilling to use a gun, and it's comforting to have something that I can use.

Regards,
Dirty Bob
 
Dirty Bob,

I have no doubt of a sword's effectiveness. But I'd be interested to see if you could take an aggressive guy with a kitchen knife in a hallway with a bokken. Long weapons don't work well in crowded spaces...and neither do complicated strategies.
 
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