What Will Supercede the ROA?

[Timthinker]

Many blackpowder enthusiasts believe that the Ruger Old Army (ROA) is the finest muzzleloading revolver currently in production. This claim rests on the metallurgy and internal components used to manufacture this remarkable gun. But the ROA has been "king of the hill" for 35 years, a lengthy period of time. So what, if any, caplock revolver will emerge to challenge the Ruger as the premier muzzleloading revolver? To date, I have never received a satisfactory answer to this question. I assume that some of our members have thought about this matter as well, and I would like to read their ideas on this topic. Thanks in advance.


Timthinker

 

[Bad Flynch]

Both Hege and Pedersoli make target grade '58 Remington revolvers that will outshoot the Ruger in the right hands, but they are seldom seen here. The Pedersolis, which can be had occasionally, are virtually hand made and have Lothar-Walther barrels. Hege waffles around, sometimes I hear, with quality.

I have one of the more expensive Piettas, a '58 Remington target revolver sold by DGW for over $600. It is a gem and has gain-twist rifling. I can't fault it a bit.

 

[ArmedBear]

There's no such thing as a muzzleloading revolver. It's like an RKO Radio Picture. What's a radio picture?

Well, that's not true. The Pepperbox is a muzzleloading revolver.

 

[Timthinker]

While the revolvers Bad Flynch mentioned are fine products indeed, I do not see them as commercial successors to the ROA. Perhaps I should rephrase my question. Do any of our members believe a successor to the Ruger will appear in the next few years? Or, would it prove cost ineffective for another manufacturer to attempt a successor to the ROA? Like it or not, economics does play a major role in such marketing decisions.


Timthinker

 

[mykeal]

In my opinion, and I don't yet own one, there is no likely successor to the ROA in the near or distant future. The reason is economics - no manufacturer will invest in the tooling and engineering NR costs because the ROI will not be large enough.

 

[Zeke/PA]

I have eleven quality handguns in my arsenal and my Old Army is by far the most accurate.
I really can't see anything down the road to replace the ROA in the shooting fraternity.
I routinely take squirrels out to 20 yards with the pistol and I once shot a huge whitetail doe that ventured within 15 yards of my treestand.
Zeke

 

[hamourkiller]

Colt Walker?

 

[Old Fuff]

When considering new products, gun makers like most manufacturers do market studies to see what the prospects are. In the case of cap & ball revolvers most of the present market rests with those that are interested in shooting duplicates of 19th century revolvers. It is unlikely that any other substantial manufacturer is going to spend any money developing and marketing another "modern" revolver along the lines of Ruger's Old Army.

On the other hand I expect smaller companies and custom shop/gunsmiths may make more accurate guns on 19th century patterns, particularly the ever-popular Remington New Army. It would seem for example, that United States Fire Arms Mfg. Co. of Hartford, CT. may be about to do something in this direction.

Today few people realize that original Colt Navies were able to interlock shots into one ragged hole slightly larger then a quarter, at 25 yards. This is (pardon the pun) an accuracy standard worth shooting for.

 

[DrLaw]

Ruger NEW Army!

The Doc is out now.

 

[Old Fuff]

Doc, ya' got'ta understand that I'm 2000 miles away from my reference library, which can make things difficult, because my brain isn't what it used to be.

But I did find an old 2003 Ruger catalog. It's a bit moldy and worn, but it does say...

Ruger Old Army!

The Old Fuff is now out... Way out...

 

[PTK]

I believe the USFA 1858 will be the finest black powder revolver in production once it gets going.

 

[Old Fuff]

I doubt that anyone has doubts about the future USFA's Remington revolvers. But top cosmetics and workmanship don't always equal superior accuracy. While we can hope, we'll still have to wait and see...

 

[mykeal]

Old Fuff - Doc knows that. He was hoping (wishing?) that the gun that supersedes the ROA would perhaps be a Ruger New Army. I think.

PTK, and Old Fuff too - USFA's Remington will without a doubt be a fine weapon. I expect it to be very high quality and accurate as well. And expensive, very expensive; for that reason it will not be significant competition in the marketplace for the ROA. For it to supersede the ROA it needs to deliver sales numbers to match or exceed the ROA, and I just don't think it will do that for price reasons alone. Other than that, it will certainly be as good as or better than an ROA. I think.

 

[Old Fuff]

I don’t think that Ruger is likely to do much more with the Old Army model, other then perhaps redesign it to take current large-frame Blackhawk lockwork. This wouldn’t be necessary because of safety issues, but rather to reduce manufacturing costs. As it stands now, the Old Army uses internals that are unique to that model, and undoubtedly a pain in the backside to make and keep in stock. Making it “in common” with the Blackhawk line of cartridge revolvers would make sense.

Maximum accuracy in any revolver largely depends on concentricity between the chambers and bore. In a cap & ball revolver you can add to that chamber diameters that are matched to the bore. Concentricity between the bore and chambers is best achieved by line boring the chambers. While this would be difficult, if not impossible to do with Colt open-top models, it could be done with Remington style revolvers if expense wasn’t an issue.

Besides the obvious, the most telling consequence caused by the USFA offering may be to get the Italian makers to put out a premium line, with more attention to important but now overlooked details. It all depends on if there is a viable market.

 

[GunTech]

Ruger is really the only example I can think of that is not a copy of some 19th century design. With such being the case, you are srtuck with upgraded but ultimately 19th century engineering. Better steels and manufacturing maybe, but the same basic gun.

This is quite unlike BP hunting rifles, where their has been a whole series of 'modern' BP designs.

The Only rival I can think of is dead. For a short time, a Swiss gentleman was making modern copies of the Beaumont Adams percussion revolver, which is a double action design. They were in the $2k range, and he only made a few.

I'm not sure this classifies as the successor to the ROA, but I wanted one quite badly.

 

[Timthinker]

Old Fluff has raised a good point about the ROA. Ruger might create a Ruger NEW Army revolver by adopting the lockwork of their Blackhawk series. This change might reduce the cost of producing this caplock design in the longrun, but I am uncertain about the initial costs of this modification. It might very well prove untenable given the current sales figures for this particular model. But standardizing the ROA's lockwork with the Blackhawk design is one of the few realistic upgrades that is conceivable even if unlikely in the near future.

The proposed USFA 1858 Remington also appeals to me, but I have two reservations about it. First, I wonder if it will adopt a modern lockwork design like the Ruger. If not, my vote will remain with the ROA. Second, I wonder if this new Remington will feature adjustable sights. Again, if it does not, I would favor a Ruger with this feature. Thanks again for the observations.


Timthinker

 

[4v50 Gary]

How about an updated Lemat or a Ruger Old Army with a 20 Ga barrel slung beneath the regular barrel? Le Ruger Rebel?

 

[ArmedBear]

Tim, there already are revolvers that will outshoot the ROA and have done so in international competition. That doesn't mean they "supercede" it, since they're not mass-market priced. But the R&S design, for example, is every bit as capable of inherent accuracy as the Ruger, and can be tuned to best-in-class performance, as Pedersoli's competition offering has demonstrated.

"Modern lockwork" IOW a coil mainspring? Overrated. Do the top CAS competitors all use Vaqueros? No way, no how.

Modern steel matters more than a coil spring. All those SAA's that get beaten to hell most weekends have the same lockwork as a BP revolver. My SAA clone with good springs has amazing trigger feel and excellent practical accuracy, limited only by the sights.

So I question a lot of your premises. Do you write for Ruger's catalogs?

As far as I can remember, I haven't seen an ROA in person since the early '80s. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them. They're fine guns. But the marketplace isn't exactly clamoring for another BP revolver that doesn't have a 19th-century appearance.

My state requires single-shots during BP season. If I could carry a revolver, a stainless ROA would be a top choice except for its heft. But as it stands, I've never been too interested in one, not because it isn't a good gun, but because due to limited practical use, I'm more interested in a vintage design if I'm shooting BP. Ditto for most of the market, apparently, since there are whole companies that have become successful selling quality replicas since the ROA was introduced.

I think that "supercede" is a word that doesn't happen too much in BP, except for the inline hunting rifles made for those who never wanted to shoot BP in the first place. Quality, though, does matter and people do want it and will pay for it.

I guess "supercede" without a lot of qualifiers implies a critical mass of acceptance, too. The 870 superceded the Model 12 as the pump gun in American hunting, as the 390 overtook the 1100 and the 1100 overtook the Auto 5 before it. That doesn't even mean it's better.

The ROA may dominate certain competitions, so something could supercede it in that arena. But it doesn't have mass market dominance.

(For the record, I'm a happy owner of multiple Rugers, and I'll be buying more. I have nothing against Ruger, their revolvers in general, or the ROA in particular.)

 

[Old Fuff]

Understand, the Old Fuff doesn't advocate any changes to the lockwork in current Ruger Old Army revolvers, but at some point the company might.

The tooling costs would be relatively modest, and for the most part only involve modifications to the frame and hammer. Whenever possible, gun manufacturers prefer to have as many common parts in their products as possible. This is especially true of models that only see limited production.

Without question, revolvers such as clones of the Remington New Army can be set up to be as accurate - or more so - then the run-of-the-mill Ruger. However at the present time such handguns are far more expensive then the Ruger, and for that reason their use and popularity will always be limited.

What might be more likely is small companies or individual gunsmiths that specialize in rebuilding standard Remington-style revolvers into gilt-edge shooters. In terms of price they might well be competitive with the foreign target-grade guns.

ArmedBear is correct in saying that there is little market demand of any consequence for "improved" cap & ball revolvers, as most buyers are happy with them as they are, and have modest expectations concerning accuracy. Therefore any better mousetrap will likely be a custom or semi-custom product.

 

[Timthinker]

Wow! I never dreamed this thread would become so popular. Thanks guys. I would like to clearify my reasoning for championing the ROA as the best BP revolver available. Granted, other BP revolvers can be manufactured that will outperform the Ruger, but at what price and availability? These pieces seem more like specialized products than mass produced ones, at least in my estimation of things. Also, I have found from personal experience that my ROA, before I foolishly sold it, proved more accurate than other BP revolvers. This experience is shared by a great many others as well. In addition, I never experienced any difficulties with the Ruger lockwork, but I certainly did with other Italian repos.

In my opinion, no other BP revolver really supercedes the Ruger when it is judged on price, durability, and accuracy. One can "make a better mousetrap", but not without spending far more than the current cost of the ROA. Given this criteria, I hope the reasons for my advocacy of this gun are clear. Perhaps I should write for the Ruger company. Maybe they will reward me with a "new toy". Thanks again guys for making me clearify my position.


Timthinker

 

[Timthinker]

Before anyone asks, I used the funds from my sale of the ROA to purchase a Ruger Vaquero chambered for the .45 Colt. It is a sweet thing, but I often wish I would have kept the ROA and saved my pennies for the .45 at a later date. Oh, the price of impatience.


Timthinker

 

[rifle]

In my humble opinion and considering the current market place with replicas of original revolvers being steadfast I've come to realize a new gun doesn't need to be made. The guns we have now in the form of Uberti and Pietta ect.ect. would open a new market if......the guns were put together properly with a good grade steel.
The guns we shoot now are sub grade. If they made some 1851 and 1860 Colts and 1858 Remingtons with some close tolerances and good ordinance grade steel that would consistantly shoot ,at least, 2 inch groups at 25 yards I'd be buying one instead of the Ruger.
If our replicas didn't come with under sized chambers compared to the bores and misalignment everywhere they could shoot much better and be even more popular.
If the cylinders of our replicas were hard enough to not be deformed by the bolts they would be more popular. If the parts weren't loose as a caboose that would be a plus. Either the screws are too small or the holes in the parts are too big. ha ha ha
Anywhooo.....I think if someone came out with replicas of the old cap&ballers that were put together with some precision and made of good carbon ordanance grade steel and had accuracy potential they'd sell like pancakes at Aunt Jemimma's house.
The Italian replica manufacturers are making progress slowly but surely with tightening tolerances and putting the guns together well but.....they are too slow about it. I'm tired of waiting and while I'm waiting I'm reaming my chambers and aligning my chambers to the grooves of the barrels and doing trigger jobs and bottoming arbors and the whole bit. They say that's part of the fun. Kitchen table gunsmithing.
I'd like the fun of buying a cap&baller and taking it out of the box and going to the targets and start shooting tight consistant groups right off the bat. I'd like to have a gun come out of the box that doesn't need the bolt spring lightened before cycling the action for fear of the bolt deforming the cylinder notches of a cylinder made of steel the consistancy of jello. I'd like to look down the barrel of a Colt clone and see smooth instead of tool chatter.
Maybe Ruger should just make a good sound Colt 1860 Army that stays together and shoots two inch groups at 25 yards all day long. A gun that lasts more than a couple of years. Kind of like the originals. If the Italians can't do it I know good old Ruger can. Come on Ruger. Give me a good 1860 Colt Army 44. Please. Maybe even a Walker or a Remington.

 

[Old Fuff]

Well I have some good news and bad...

USFA is about to build the kind of revolver you want... I think.

But I expect the street price will be around one thousand bucks...

 

[DrLaw]

Actually, I was just joking around with the name. Old vs. New, what will supercede the old - something 'new'

Well, I tried. :banghead:

The Doc is out now.

 

[ArmedBear]

Maybe Ruger should just make a good sound Colt 1860 Army that stays together and shoots two inch groups at 25 yards all day long. A gun that lasts more than a couple of years. Kind of like the originals. If the Italians can't do it I know good old Ruger can. Come on Ruger. Give me a good 1860 Colt Army 44. Please. Maybe even a Walker or a Remington.

I've had similar thoughts for about 25 years. A Remington copy, anyway. They can keep the 1860, if I'm paying extra for accuracy.

So now USFA is going to do that. If it's not $1500, I'll have to get one.

Another modern look-and-feel BP revolver might do quite well in the UK for legal reasons. But here in the US, I think it would be about as popular as 16" AR uppers chambered for .44-40 Black Powder Only.