Paladin, in Ohio hunting with a centerfire of any size is illegal for deer. Do you see a reason for any bolt rifle in Ohio? They would be bad for SD, they can't be used to hunt, most all have too much range, and ammo is more expensive than .22lr. Under Ohio circumstances would you own any centerfire rifle? I'm really trying to understand what you are looking for in a rifle and wonder if there was any you found justifiable in Ohio. You can hunt other small game with centerfire rifles in Ohio but if .223 was too much for coyote, which is about the biggest thing we can hunt with centerfire, what would you use, both caliber and model?
What's so great about AR-15's anyway?
- Thread starter Paladin_Hammer
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Ed Ames
Member
You own three? Each with a purpose? Wow. I don't remember a time when I've owned three. Is that three rifles or three guns total?
I stand by my "not a gun person" diagnosis.
A few points:
Ultralights fly low and slow, and cannot legally be used commercially. They have virtually no military purpose. They are fun.
I am sure hunting is fun. It isn't a priority for me.
I do not shoot three gun or any other form of sport shooting. My shooting is recreational.
I don't think you understand what "means to an end" means.
And this:
Not the sort of thing that will make you popular.
I stand by my "not a gun person" diagnosis.
A few points:
Ultralights fly low and slow, and cannot legally be used commercially. They have virtually no military purpose. They are fun.
I am sure hunting is fun. It isn't a priority for me.
I do not shoot three gun or any other form of sport shooting. My shooting is recreational.
I don't think you understand what "means to an end" means.
And this:
Not the sort of thing that will make you popular.
oldFred
Practical accuracy is how the shooter handles the weapon, not how inherently accurate the weapon is. These are very different concepts and are clearly not what was intended in your original post.
Since practical accuracy is a function of human skill, it can be improved on and compensated for. Physical or platform accuracy is a function of hardware and build quality and will not improve through use. The AR in all its barrel lengths is inherently physically accurate by nature of the platform itself.
By way of example, platform accuracy is exhibited by a 14" carbine AR and a full length bolt action being able to hit 1 MOA at 100 yards from a bench rest. Practical accuracy is why the little carbine drops that deer at 300 yards and you shoot low with your bolt and go home hungry. See the difference?
Practical accuracy is how the shooter handles the weapon, not how inherently accurate the weapon is. These are very different concepts and are clearly not what was intended in your original post.
Since practical accuracy is a function of human skill, it can be improved on and compensated for. Physical or platform accuracy is a function of hardware and build quality and will not improve through use. The AR in all its barrel lengths is inherently physically accurate by nature of the platform itself.
By way of example, platform accuracy is exhibited by a 14" carbine AR and a full length bolt action being able to hit 1 MOA at 100 yards from a bench rest. Practical accuracy is why the little carbine drops that deer at 300 yards and you shoot low with your bolt and go home hungry. See the difference?
yesit'sloaded
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Guys, it is bad enough that we have an administration and a large group of people that think our freedom to own arms for whatever purpose is not a valid freedom. Let us not make it worse by infighting and resorting to childish personal attacks. I'm not calling anyone out, I'm just requesting we learn from each other instead of stubbornly clinging to our own ideas which may or may not be correct.
oldFred
Member
Oh I understand perfectly Coal Dragger, as my original replay stated IN MY OPINION and my set of rules.
Once again to make it quite simple IMO,
1. ARs jam frequently
2. Have short barrels that aren't good for anything beyond 75 yards.
3. It's a proven fact that soldiers DO NOT clean their weapons in combat, hence the failure of this design.
4. The ARMY was stupid to ever have rejected the gas piston design in the first place.
5. .22 caliber projectiles are worthless.
6. If YOU don't have your upper upgraded to a gas piston .308, then your AR is complete GARBAGE and you paid for JUNK!
Paladin_Hammer
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All I can say is THANK GOD for guys like yesit'sloaded. Sir having a moment of your time has been nothing but a pleasure and if your ever in need and in western Missouri you've got a friend in me! Your answers have been clear, concise, and thoughtful. If you lived within an hours drive I'd bring you a six pack of Guinness right now.
Titan6, X-Rap, and M&PVolk, you guys can go straight to hell! If it wasn't for yesit'sloaded, I'd swear off AR-15's right now as being the tools of arrogant, insecure ******* who need guns taken away from them if only to spare the rest of us the shame of being in the same boat as you!
M&PVolk, I even SAID they were accurate, and good for target shooting. I never said that the lack of hunting applications was a reason NOT TO OWN ONE. I said I couldn't see it as a hunting rifle which honest, good guys like yesit'sloaded kindly answered and gave an acceptable answer of the 5.56 just needs heavier bullets to be hunting legal/capable. I never didn't accept that answer! I've BEEN satisfied with those answers, the question of cost was ALSO answered by yesit'sloaded. I'm getting the idea he's the only source for AR-15 info I need, because the rest of you are so damn insecure with your preciousness you won't even give me the light of day!
Titan6, I never had false premises, this got ugly because ******* like you couldn't just answer a stupid question.
X-Rap, I hope to God someone supervises you when you use a firearm, someone with as little of mind and as little of tolerance for a few questions bring me to question the state of mind you must be in. Inebriated is all I can think of.
With few exceptions, reading the posts here have me convinced that we truly do live in a world of terror. People are so scared to answer questions here that I could just rip apart a two by four with my bare hands!
I apologize for the sarcasm and ass comment Ed. I'm just getting so frustrated trying to TALK to some of these guys that I could just rip something apart!
I've got a Marlin 30-30, Deer Rifle. Remington 870, Duck and Skeet. .22lr revolver, plastic bottles. I didn't say guns couldn't be used for recreation, its what my revolvers for. But I didn't understand the AR-15 for anything else other than an expensive plinker. yesit'sloaded and HGUNHTR have changed that perception. I thank them for it. And I apologize to you. But not to M&P, X-Rap, and Titan6, they're nonsense is slowly costing me my sanity.
The heck? I know for a fact you guys do have range much greater than 100 yards in Ohio. Why did they outlaw use of centerfires? I've not seen a slug shotgun go more than 50 myself (I'm not entirely sure what ranges a 12 gauge slug stops being good at though). They would be bad for SD, for only in the rare occasion has anyone I know seen a 50 yard and under shot there. Even then, it could have easily been 200 yards if they walked in from another direction.
Rifles to me have a niche. The AR-15 fills plenty (thanks to certain members of the board, no thanks to other members who just wanted to piss me off, you know who you are). My 30-30 is for forest and brush. A .270 is for 300-500 yards of open field. A .308 is for... anything not inside a tank. A 30-06 see: .308 (they're almost the same thing). A .223 isn't to much for coyote, I was only making a comment on how in Missouri there are rarely shots greater than a hundred yards or so for a .223. I wasn't saying they couldn't be used, only that other alternatives seemed better. Note: seemed. Thank you you know who you are.
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Perhaps that is why threads like this are so irritating. Gun owners are weary of having to justify what we own and why despite the 2nd Amendment putting no restrictions on such things. In fact, if we were to be true to the 2nd Amendment intent, military styled weapons would be the most desirable, not the weapons that need to be justified.
Duke of Doubt
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As I mentioned above and elsewhere, I purchased my AR without much passion; it was purely a professional decision, made for economic reasons which I find amusing but sometimes fun to relate. Plus I also figured it for a good investment, which it has been.
It has some nice points, as I related above, and it's pretty well made, but I've never cared for them much as enthusiast guns and I still don't. That plastic butt just doesn't do it for me at all, not when I'm used to steel buttplates on hardwood stocks. If it's plastic it should fold aside like the AK's. The plastic forend looks like it's ready to split apart like a red tide clam. And the M9 bayonet is so huge and robust, and the rifle so small and fragile-looking, that it resembles nothing so much as scrawny young D'Artagnan trying to duel the Musketeers with his father's unwieldy Lepanto longsword. Can't even sheath the bayonet on the rifle as you can with many other designs. And the standard round's effective range is a little on the short side.
Yet I don't hate the rifle. Our military chooses to keep it for many reasons, most salient the fact that after several and periodic replacement trials, the improvements offered by other, newer designs honestly are marginal and could never justify the replacement cost.
I do not find AR users to be "fanboys" like the Glock users or insecure tightwads like the Taurus users. They often aren't into my preferred enthusiast guns, but I acknowledge that their preferred gun isn't objectively bad at all, and has its good points. They'll generally acknowledge the same of my preferred guns, though they tend to be ignorant of them and can sometimes be subtly condescending (until I shoot rings around their M4gery with my SAR-1 or Romanian SKS).
In short, plenty of reasons to have an AR, including the fact that for now at least, it is accepted more than most rifles as a "professional/paramilitary" arm by the general, paying public.
It has some nice points, as I related above, and it's pretty well made, but I've never cared for them much as enthusiast guns and I still don't. That plastic butt just doesn't do it for me at all, not when I'm used to steel buttplates on hardwood stocks. If it's plastic it should fold aside like the AK's. The plastic forend looks like it's ready to split apart like a red tide clam. And the M9 bayonet is so huge and robust, and the rifle so small and fragile-looking, that it resembles nothing so much as scrawny young D'Artagnan trying to duel the Musketeers with his father's unwieldy Lepanto longsword. Can't even sheath the bayonet on the rifle as you can with many other designs. And the standard round's effective range is a little on the short side.
Yet I don't hate the rifle. Our military chooses to keep it for many reasons, most salient the fact that after several and periodic replacement trials, the improvements offered by other, newer designs honestly are marginal and could never justify the replacement cost.
I do not find AR users to be "fanboys" like the Glock users or insecure tightwads like the Taurus users. They often aren't into my preferred enthusiast guns, but I acknowledge that their preferred gun isn't objectively bad at all, and has its good points. They'll generally acknowledge the same of my preferred guns, though they tend to be ignorant of them and can sometimes be subtly condescending (until I shoot rings around their M4gery with my SAR-1 or Romanian SKS).
In short, plenty of reasons to have an AR, including the fact that for now at least, it is accepted more than most rifles as a "professional/paramilitary" arm by the general, paying public.
Texpatriate
Member
oldFred,
No offense, but I fear that you are about to get added to a bunch of people's "ignore list" unless you change the attitude of your posts. I want to respect your views and experience, but you're making it very difficult with the spirit in which they are offered. This site is called "The High Road" for a reason.
No offense, but I fear that you are about to get added to a bunch of people's "ignore list" unless you change the attitude of your posts. I want to respect your views and experience, but you're making it very difficult with the spirit in which they are offered. This site is called "The High Road" for a reason.
Titan6
member
All of your questions have been answered. Ad Nauseum.
Name calling and rudeness as you have repeatedly done is not high road. I am going to take the unusual step of adding you to my ignore list as you can not hold down a conversation without being rude and potty mouth, goodbye.
yesit'sloaded
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It was my pleasure to be of service. It was my hope that this website will continue to be a place for the uninformed to gather information as well as the "old-timers" to discuss the fun times we have in the shooting sports and disciplines.
X-Rap
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I called PH out in my 1st post. His statements were anti gun and inflammatory and just the opposite of what a pro gun forum should be. If he wanted to bring up reliability or base his point on a reserched issues regarding the legalities and ethics of the AR as a big game rifle that is one thing. Go back and read the OP and tell me it isn't right out of the antis talking points.
WardenWolf
member
And reported. Congrats on killing an informative thread, all responsible (you know who you are).
yesit'sloaded
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Everyone was an anti or indifferent at some point of their lives. This website was founded by a liberal that decided he needed to arm himself one day.
oldFred
Member
So it's ok for people here to call me "stupid", and an "idiot" but I can't call a AR a piece of junk??
I have not insulted anyone here, only the Ed Stoner design.
What started me off tonight was a Taurus bashing thread. Forgive if I bash the AR platform, I simply hate it more than some of you do Taurus...
Coal Dragger
member
Well oldFred,
1.) The AR's that I own and have had issued to me were generally pretty reliable except with blanks which are the bane of my existence.
2.) I have short barrels on rifles and pistols that are plenty effective and accurate beyond 75 yards. Perhaps you should practice more, to me 75 yards is practical pistol or revolver range with iron sights. Hell my Kimber Super Match has a long enough sight radius to made hits out to 100yds once I determine the hold.
3.) Maybe you don't clean your weapons, that is your mistake. I made it a point to clean mine when I had a chance when I was in Iraq, and that included not just the M16 but all of the belt fed stuff we had too. Sand is a bitch, so you better clean weapons when you get a chance. You don't eat, you don't sleep, you don't take a piss until your weapon is clean, I don't care if all it is is a sharp pointy stick. With all that said an AR will run a lot dirtier than you might expect.
4.) The Army is stupid, but as a former Marine I am expected to take that position. Ha ha ha. I am not a big fan of direct gas systems either, but they are not as bad as you think they are. Especially with quality ammo. Given a choice I would likely go with a piston driven autoloader too.
5.) .224 caliber projectiles are not completely worthless, I have seen then work just fine on tissue and bone both animal and human. Would I prefer a larger caliber? Sure a 6mm or 6.5mm would have been better in my opinion, especially if we are limiting ourselves to FMJ projectiles.
6.) A gas piston AR10 in .308 would be nice, I'll have to get one one of these days. I'll still keep a 5.56mm though, I just have no intention of running ball ammo for any serious business when so many better projectiles exist.
1.) The AR's that I own and have had issued to me were generally pretty reliable except with blanks which are the bane of my existence.
2.) I have short barrels on rifles and pistols that are plenty effective and accurate beyond 75 yards. Perhaps you should practice more, to me 75 yards is practical pistol or revolver range with iron sights. Hell my Kimber Super Match has a long enough sight radius to made hits out to 100yds once I determine the hold.
3.) Maybe you don't clean your weapons, that is your mistake. I made it a point to clean mine when I had a chance when I was in Iraq, and that included not just the M16 but all of the belt fed stuff we had too. Sand is a bitch, so you better clean weapons when you get a chance. You don't eat, you don't sleep, you don't take a piss until your weapon is clean, I don't care if all it is is a sharp pointy stick. With all that said an AR will run a lot dirtier than you might expect.
4.) The Army is stupid, but as a former Marine I am expected to take that position. Ha ha ha. I am not a big fan of direct gas systems either, but they are not as bad as you think they are. Especially with quality ammo. Given a choice I would likely go with a piston driven autoloader too.
5.) .224 caliber projectiles are not completely worthless, I have seen then work just fine on tissue and bone both animal and human. Would I prefer a larger caliber? Sure a 6mm or 6.5mm would have been better in my opinion, especially if we are limiting ourselves to FMJ projectiles.
6.) A gas piston AR10 in .308 would be nice, I'll have to get one one of these days. I'll still keep a 5.56mm though, I just have no intention of running ball ammo for any serious business when so many better projectiles exist.
Paladin Hammer wrote:
How amazingly tolerant of you! I can see how someone as level headed and tolerant of others is perfectly suited to firearm ownership and the rest of us are not. I simply pointed out that your original premise was flawed when asking the original question, and that was too much for you!
If I had said, "I like the AR because I like the way it looks on my mantle", what would your reaction have been? The fact of the matter is, if that's what I wanted an AR for, it would serve every bit as useful a purpose to me hanging on my wall as your bolt action lever does for you out in the field.
The original question was asked in a baiting manner, and you received answers meaded out accordingly.
How amazingly tolerant of you! I can see how someone as level headed and tolerant of others is perfectly suited to firearm ownership and the rest of us are not. I simply pointed out that your original premise was flawed when asking the original question, and that was too much for you!
If I had said, "I like the AR because I like the way it looks on my mantle", what would your reaction have been? The fact of the matter is, if that's what I wanted an AR for, it would serve every bit as useful a purpose to me hanging on my wall as your bolt action lever does for you out in the field.
The original question was asked in a baiting manner, and you received answers meaded out accordingly.
RugerOldArmy
Member
A lotta closed minds here.
AR(s) have a lot of utility:
- Defense: If the fact that the US Military uses them doesn't impress you, consider that the Russians were impressed enough with 5.56 to chamber AK-74s with a similar cartridge.
- Competition: Ever go to a Highpower competition? AR(s) are ubiquitious.
- Hunting: Nothing is more devastating to a prarie dog colony than a hunter with an AR chambered in .223 or .204
Go shoot one. They're cool gizmos, almost endlessly modifiable. Accurate, modular, semi-auto, and fun.
Did I really see someone question cost for paper punching? lol! Compare a Highpower AR ($800-$1500) to a Benchrest gun ($2k to beyond 5K$)
BTW, shorter barrels are inherently more accurate, for a given diameter. (Think about how a short and long piece of PVC would flex with a given force and which would vary more from the axis.) Read about harmonics and accuracy nodes. Listen to Tony Boyer or Bill Shehane, not Zumbo or Chuck Hawkes
Some of this is covered by this link: http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/barrelFAQ.html Links about barrel harmonics and the impact on loads: Barrel Harmonics and their effect on load development
AR(s) have a lot of utility:
- Defense: If the fact that the US Military uses them doesn't impress you, consider that the Russians were impressed enough with 5.56 to chamber AK-74s with a similar cartridge.
- Competition: Ever go to a Highpower competition? AR(s) are ubiquitious.
- Hunting: Nothing is more devastating to a prarie dog colony than a hunter with an AR chambered in .223 or .204
Go shoot one. They're cool gizmos, almost endlessly modifiable. Accurate, modular, semi-auto, and fun.
Did I really see someone question cost for paper punching? lol! Compare a Highpower AR ($800-$1500) to a Benchrest gun ($2k to beyond 5K$)
BTW, shorter barrels are inherently more accurate, for a given diameter. (Think about how a short and long piece of PVC would flex with a given force and which would vary more from the axis.) Read about harmonics and accuracy nodes. Listen to Tony Boyer or Bill Shehane, not Zumbo or Chuck Hawkes
Some of this is covered by this link: http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/barrelFAQ.html Links about barrel harmonics and the impact on loads: Barrel Harmonics and their effect on load developmentbhk
Member
The AR 15 is perfectly legal in Missouri for hunting. The only restriction is that you can't use over a 10 round magazine for deer hunting. No limit for coyotes or other creatures. If you live in this state, it is your obligation to at least know our game laws.
oldFred
Member
RugerOldArmy,
I was going to buy a Ruger Mini-14 till I read about it's horrible inaccuracy beyond 100 yards. Must be that 16" barrel.
Coal Dragger,
Much respect on your last post. Thanks!
I was going to buy a Ruger Mini-14 till I read about it's horrible inaccuracy beyond 100 yards. Must be that 16" barrel.
Coal Dragger,
Much respect on your last post. Thanks!
Brian Dale
Member
It's one of the rifles that's allowed for Service Rifle competition, and it shoots like a laser beam.
Fun to shoot, too...and its low recoil is nice for new shooters, shooters of slight physical build, and me!
Fun to shoot, too...and its low recoil is nice for new shooters, shooters of slight physical build, and me!
Coal Dragger
member
Sorry about the name calling Fred, just got a little fired up there.
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