What's the best strategy in this situation?

[sherman123]

So I've been watching some videos of shootings lately and trying to study what could be done better from a tactical standpoint. I don't mean being an armchair commando, I simply mean using these bad situations to gain knowledge of criminal behavior from typical robberies in hopes that it could keep me safer one day if I'm unfortunate to be a victim of a violent attack. This video in particular caught my eye...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_RQRRrRTCA&feature=related Now I don't want to open a can of worms on whether or not he should or shouldn't have resisted, as those arguments could go on forever. I'm just glad the cashier got out of the shooting unharmed since that is what's most important. But the reason I posted this is I noticed he ducked behind the counter and basically started blind firing at the robbers before they turned tail and ran. It almost seems like that was his only option, aside from backpedaling off the X while shooting back and trying to get to better cover. He couldn't move forward off the X since the counter was in his way and he had no space. So from a strategical standpoint what do you folks think he could have done differently with his very limited options? Would backpedalling off the X while shooting back be a better idea despite having no cover? Again, this is in no way an armchair commando thread, I'm just trying to see what could've been more conducive to this man's safety as far as reacting to this threat with deadly force.
Stay safe and stay armed.

 

[Crusader103]

The Good - The clerk apparently had some situational awareness about himself as he appeared to recognize a threat before it fully developed. He took immediate and decisive action to overwhelm the attempted robbers. Although we don't know what he heard before taking action, he obviously recognized the threat before the presentation of a weapon by the suspects.

Mindset - skillset - toolset. He had the mindset and that is the first step.

The Bad (or at least not perfect) - Yes, seeking cover is a good thing. The clerk sought cover, or at least concealment, and made himself a smaller target by conforming to the cover afforded him. However, in doing so, he may very well have lost sight of at least one of the perpetrators, and perhaps both for a period of time. Having placed himself in that position of low cover, he could have placed himself in a precarious position should the suspects advanced on him around the corner in lieu of fleeing. Thankfully, they fled.

From the position that he chose, the clerk was unable to direct accurate fire. He was able to direct sustained fire, but we would like to see accurate and sustained fire on the threats. Again, the suspects fled but had they chosen to stick it out and fight, he did little to overcome their aggression. An expenditure of ammo is just that, an expenditure, unless it has an affect on the threat. Unless they choose to flee, and I'm glad they did, you can soon be left with capable aggressors and an empty weapon.

Mindset - skillset - toolset. His skillset could have definitely been better.

What I would hope to see differently is this. Though it is generally a good thing to seek cover, it is not good if it is to the detriment of placing effective hits on your target(s). You can still utilize as much cover as possible, such as from a low crouch, while maintaining awareness of multiple threats at a time. The clerk could have also maintained the low crouch while moving laterally, a much better option than simply moving fore or aft. A combination of speed vs accuracy, combining sound tactics, can then be utilized to overcome the threat. If you seek cover but can no longer fire fast and accurate shots you are at a disadvantage. If you are fast but not accurate, you are fighting in vain. If you are accurate but not fast, you may soon run out of time.

You really need all three - speed, accuracy, and tactics, to best assure victory.

 

[Axel Larson]

I agree that he did well with situational awareness and finding cover but as jscott said he could have been more "accurate" about it. The problem with randomly firing over the table like he did is that you do not know what you are shooting at or what is behind what you are shooting at.
Know your target and what is behind it.
Admittedly non of us would think very well in a adrenaline pumped situation, just my two cents.

 

[9mmepiphany]

You have to remember that you are responsible for every shot that you fire...weather sighted or not...and it looked like there were other customers in the store at the time (you can see them moving in the background as the clerk later approaches the door)

When the distances are short and you are overguned (it looked like the armed BG had a PG shotgun), you have two choices:
1. get out of the line of fire
2. take the fire and return fire
...there isn't much to recommend the second choice

The clerk chose the first option (good) but then made the decision to return unsighted fire (bad). The futility of unsighted fire is highlighted in the video clip of the assault on the Detroit (?) station house where the assailant continued to charge the officers who were trying to hide.

My training teaches to seek cover first, peek to determine location of opponent, neutralize as needed with accurate fire.

 

[sherman123]

Great feedback guys and thanks for your input. 9mmepiphany, I have to agree that option number 1 you gave seems like the best solution. My initial thought was very similar that the best option is to get off the line of fire while also drawing and returning fire. He didn't have the pistol on him though and had to grab it from under the counter but assuming one had it on their belt, how many would agree that is the best solution?

 

[Cop Bob]

The problem is TRAINING, most store clerks don't have any.... He, was scared out of his mind... understandable... He laid down grazing fire... keep the bad guys down or moving in the other direction... Military mindset? Saw it on Tv? or just scared for is life.... Maybe from foreign Military training, Pakistan, Iran..??? Who knows

If you watch his after action moves... he is REALLY jazzed.. he probably has no idea what he was doing for the first few seconds.. therefore probably not fully aware of what he did DURING the shooting.. Ducking for cover was the BEST thing he did... spraying wildly, the dumbest, but.. it worked

In a real deal shooting such as this.. he went from idle to full blown race on .5 seconds.. Without A LOT of training and experience to fall back on, he could have done better. Could he have been smarter? You bet... But he did take action that probably saved his life... sometimes any action is better than no action.. sometimes the best action is no action at all...

Hard to tell, i wasn't there, I didn't see ALL that he did leading in.. other suspects?

Call the cops,, looks to me like there was no time... besides, if there was a patrol car at the gas pumps, it would have been over with before they could have reacted to it..

He IS civilly responsible for every round fired, no doubt... but with his level of training, again probably none. His level of fear... he was at that instant probably more concerned with just living a few minutes longer... I don't blame him... If an innocent bystander did get hurt.. One would hope that a civil jury or judge would have a bit of mercy on him, however if he was insured, they would probably settle the matter out of court.

I would not wanted to be in his shoes... period...

 

[heeler]

In my limited opinion on this issue I think Cop Bob said it about as well as it could be said.
That was truely a fast paced touch and go scenario for sure.

 

[sidheshooter]

I am going to be mildly contrarian and (sort of, in a hair-splitting way) disagree with 9mmepi (who's posts on here I have come to value, btw).

This guy's half-a***d attempt at returning fire may have saved his life: it sure looks to me like the BGs were fully prepared to get the guy out of way before raiding the till, if it came down to it.

As Clint Smith once opined "True killing in a fight doesn't begin until one side turns to run, then it gets bad quickly." My read on that vid is that the Shotty BG was pretty intent on poking the shotgun muzzle over the counter after the clerk's line of movement to take care of business right up until the first muzzle blast came back his way. I don't think hunkering down and waiting, or a quick peek to slice the counter vertically was in the cards with that barrel bore lurking in wait.

This is NOT to discount the obvious liability/moral issues with shamelessly setting loose the dogs of lead, but I think this guy did pretty well by the Cooper principles of defense, even if his technique was absolutely atrocious.

Other opinions may well vary.

 

[heeler]

Get a stop watch and turn down that ridiculous BS rat- a- tat- tat imitation Tech-9 noise and just see how very,very little time that poor guy had to react to the situation.
He is sitting and one of the hoody wearing accomplice rats walks by the counter and the clerk has enough street smarts to smell a setup and looks toward the door and just in time as you can clearly see.
Set a stop watch to it.
Now that I have watched it multiple times I sure can feel a LOT of sympathy for that clerk.

 

[9mmepiphany]

My read on that vid is that the Shotty BG was pretty intent on poking the shotgun muzzle over the counter after the clerk's line of movement to take care of business right up until the first muzzle blast came back his way. I don't think hunkering down and waiting, or a quick peek to slice the counter vertically was in the cards with that barrel bore lurking in wait.

I don't disagree that the clerk's first shot was what sent the shotty BG running...and likely saved his life. futility might have been too strong a word

I think what you see as the BG poking the gun over the counter is really him swinging it away in his first step toward the door. He did have it pointed at where he thought the clerk was hiding as he crossed in front of the counter. But I think the flatness of the image and lense distortion cause the elongation of the barrel to look like it was going over the counter rather than swinging away...it does help if you turn off the sound

 

[Hoppes Love Potion]

Wow - the clerk reacted quickly and correctly. This was no game. I think shooting wildly in this case was even better than taking an aimed shot. He turned the tables in a flash and sent the hoodies on their way.