What's the magic behind boutique ammo?

[Smaug]

For example, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, etc.

I'm shopping for defense ammo for my 38 LCR and I'm looking at these three offerings from Buffalo Bore:

• 150 gr. wadcutter (LINK)
• 158 gr. +P hard cast w/Keith bullet (LINK)
• 158 gr. +P soft cast hollow point SWC (LINK)

It seems the founder writes these nice descriptions. (as we would hope, considering the loads are over $2/round) He seems to know what he's talking about from testing. Here's an example from the wadcutter round:

Due to customer demand, we've developed this defensive 38SPL ammo. Our customers wanted some devastating 38SPL loads that would fill the following criteria.

1. It won't hurt older/fragile/alloy revolvers. (Non +P)
2. Is effective as a "fight stopper" through the use of proper bullets.
3. Is more powerful than typical/standard, weak 38SPL ammo.
4. Generate much less recoil than our +P 38SPL ammo.
5. Is flash suppressed.

Buffalo Bore is introducing these three different heavy, yet standard pressure loadings for 38 SPL. These offerings are loaded at standard pressure, but they are much more powerful than normal 38SPL ammo. These loads will not harm older more fragile revolvers. So, these loads are safe for use in ANY 38 SPL revolver, provided it is in normal working condition. As stated above, the "POWER" level of these loads is really closer to a typical +P power level, but the pressure is standard. We are able to develop these powerful standard pressure loads with modern non-canister powders. Again, these loads recoil far less than our +P 38 SPL ammo.

All three of these loads are flash suppressed, so firing them in the dark won't blind you. We use flash suppressed powder in our defensive ammo, in the loadings we can, because over 90% of all civilian shootings in America, occur in low light, when the criminal element is at work. We don't want you blinded by your own gunfire after the first shot.

Item 20D utilizes a very hard cast 150gr. WAD CUTTER bullet. The bullet is made hard, so it won't deform or mushroom. It penetrates deeply (roughly 14 to 16 inches ) and its full diameter profile maximizes blood loss as it cuts and crushes (not slips or slides) its way through tissue. These bullets are hard and properly lubed and will NOT lead your barrel. Note my velocities from real world "over the counter" revolver s- NOT TEST BARRELS!

• a. S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel - 868 fps (251 ft. lbs.)
• b. S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch barrel - 890 fps (264 ft. lbs.)
• c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch barrel - 961 fps (308 ft. lbs.)
• d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel - 1005 fps (336 ft. lbs.)

What is a "non-canister powder" and why can't we get it as reloaders?

Does that mean its a proprietary mix of common powders, or can they really make their own?

 

[SharpDog]

Generally, more power and harder / stronger bullets primarily intended for animals.

For example, I like that I can get standard 10 mm power if I want to but still use .40 cal for practice and self-defense / edc.

 

[Atavar]

For example, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, etc.

What is a "non-canister powder" and why can't we get it as reloaders?

Does that mean its a proprietary mix of common powders, or can they really make their own?

you can buy non canister powders but they are sold in 5 ton + lots. I doubt your zoning permits storage of a quantity like that.

 

[Mk-211]

Boutique Ammo,

Ammo someone else loaded for you, using the bullets, cases, powder and primers you ask for.

A friend that's an 06 FFL does this for people that can't do it for themselves. Everyone is happy and he can work as much or little as he wants.

 

[AJC1]

You can use it as a legal pass for self defense ammo if that's your thing. I make exactly what I want at a cost that is way more palatable. As an example I can make fed gmm 308 for less than half what it is in a store. I don't carry a 308 so I don't need a factory label in court.

 

[fxvr5]

It's magic gunpowder. Stuff they have access to that we don't.

 

[EricBu]

The "boutique" stuff I've busted down was Lovex powders.

 

[KY DAN]

Because they make ammo with features that can't be bought from a factory.

Original loading for 357 mag
38 special defense ammo
9mm hunting ammo
44 mag loaded to its full potential

Factory ammo sucks and if you don't load it yourself then your left with this.

 

[Smaug]

There are a lot of vague responses here. I don’t know what they mean.

Maybe a lot of guessing?

 

[Smaug]

What is a “non-canister powder”?

 

[fxvr5]

What is a “non-canister powder”?

See post # 3.

A one second google search found this:

http://www.firearmtutorials.com/index.php/reloading/canister-vs-non-canister-powder

 

[fxvr5]

Because they make ammo with features that can't be bought from a factory.

Original loading for 357 mag

What original loading for the 357 Magnum are you referring to? Thanks.

 

[AJC1]

44 mag loaded to its full potential
.

This has me curious. Sammi max pressure is the same no matter who loads it. Are you saying that factory rounds are not full pressure like some of the factory 10mm or something else. I have never shot factory 357 ever so I don't know how they would compare. 14.9 grains of #9 under a 158 is plenty warm and I don't think I would need more.

 

[KY DAN]

There are a lot of vague responses here. I don’t know what they mean.

Maybe a lot of guessing?

Ammo is not loaded to the max Psi, velocity, nor uses appropriate projectiles in some examples.

The smaller brand ammo manufacturers fill a need that the big companies won't.

In a world full of litigation it's easier to load weak and hope for the best.

 

[KY DAN]

What original loading for the 357 Magnum are you referring to? Thanks.

I will have to get my General Hatcher signed copy of his work Text book of pistols and revolvers to be certain of the velocity. This book was around the same time of the 357 magnum birth and discussed it rather well.

Original loading for 357 magnum was a swaged lead 158 grain projectile traveling at 1580 fps from a 8.75 inch barrel revolver.

My numbers maybe off as I don't have the original text in front of me.

I achieved 1610 fps with a 150 grain rcbs Swc in a 4 inch ruger black hawk with a HEAVY dose of 2400. NO ACCURACY

I load Skeeter loads for my N frames and ruger revolvers, and Smith and wesson 66-2 using a lyman 358156 HP gaschecked bullet and 15 grains of 2400. You can't get better as I know it has accuracy and power to harvest game.

Everyone depicts the 357 mag as being a poor underpowered cartridge....... the ammo factories just down loaded it.

In the 30s they were killing rabid man eating grizzly bears, and bull mosses, elk, goats, etc

Today the bullets fall off the paper targets if you believe some Magizne editors.

 

[KY DAN]

This has me curious. Sammi max pressure is the same no matter who loads it. Are you saying that factory rounds are not full pressure like some of the factory 10mm or something else. I have never shot factory 357 ever so I don't know how they would compare. 14.9 grains of #9 under a 158 is plenty warm and I don't think I would need more.

I mean the factory does not load the cartridge to its full potential pressure and velocity wise.

Everyone wants to deny responsibility for their piss poor decisions, if someone shoots these loads in a charter arms bulldog that's been reamed out the ammo was to blame for the devastation.

My load for 44 mag is a HG 503 lead bullet with 25 grains of H110/296,CCI LP primer, starline case.

I got this load from John Ross who assured me he had shot 100s of thousands through Smith and wesson model 29s with no issues for 40ish years. I will take the word of this man as he pressure tested the load himself.

 

[AJC1]

I mean the factory does not load the cartridge to its full potential pressure and velocity wise.

Everyone wants to deny responsibility for their piss poor decisions, if someone shoots these loads in a charter arms bulldog that's been reamed out the ammo was to blame for the devastation.

My load for 44 mag is a HG 503 lead bullet with 25 grains of H110/296,CCI LP primer, starline case.

I got this load from John Ross who assured me he had shot 100s of thousands through Smith and wesson model 29s with no issues for 40ish years. I will take the word of this man as he pressure tested the load himself.

So the same thing as 10mm. I was not aware 44 mag suffered the same problem.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

"Non-Cannister" - not sold in cannisters. IOW: Not packaged for retail sale. That doesn't mean you can't buy it, it means it's not available in retail packaging.
Boutique ammo is made for resale through a storefront, not through a distribution channel. Just like boutique hair dies and boutique cosmetics and boutique motorcycle parts, etc.
For example: you can't just go out and buy Subaru motor oil by the quart/liter at the corner auto parts store... unless your corner auto parts store is a Subaru dealership/authorized service center.
Is the boutique ammo really all that "special"? Is it chamber tested? Is it pressure tested? Will it work as advertised in your gun?
Don't know. Depends on the boutique, I guess.

 

[fxvr5]

I will have to get my General Hatcher signed copy of his work Text book of pistols and revolvers to be certain of the velocity. This book was around the same time of the 357 magnum birth and discussed it rather well.

Original loading for 357 magnum was a swaged lead 158 grain projectile traveling at 1580 fps from a 8.75 inch barrel revolver.

My numbers maybe off as I don't have the original text in front of me.

Yes, let me know what Hatcher wrote. Thank you.

Elmer Keith states in his 1935 American Rifleman article the ballistics are a 158 grain bullet at 1518 fps in a 8.75" barrel.

Remington's 1977 catalog shows a 158 grain bullet at 1550 fps from a 8 3/8" barrel. But I don't know if it was vented or not.

 

[jmorris]

What is a “non-canister powder”?

Probably powders that don’t fall into a burn rate tolerance. They are given different names and in some cases are only “close” to powders that you can buy.

The ones I have are in kegs.



It seems in the OP, you have already discovered the “magic”.

…considering the loads are over $2/round…

If you don’t think you have enough gun, don’t try and make it something it’s not, just get another one that doesn’t require jumping through hoops to achieve desired power level.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

If you don’t think you have enough gun, don’t try and make it something it’s not, just get another one that doesn’t require jumping through hoops to achieve desired power level.

That needs to be in a sticky somewhere. Or maybe a disclaimer. Somewhere it can’t be avoided. Add to that, learn to put the bullet where it needs to go and start by grabbing an anatomy primer and figuring out where those places are.

 

[AJC1]

If you don’t think you have enough gun, don’t try and make it something it’s not, just get another one that doesn’t require jumping through hoops to achieve desired power level.

Stop trying to get carbine velocity out of a pistol belongs in this group of advise.

 

[Skgreen]

What is a "non-canister powder" and why can't we get it as reloaders?

Sold only in commercial quantities. When purchasing commercial quantities, the Customer can request certain options.
There's nothing really 'magic' about it.

 

[Smaug]

If you don’t think you have enough gun, don’t try and make it something it’s not, just get another one that doesn’t require jumping through hoops to achieve desired power level.

This has nothing to do with my question. Did you read the OP?

That ammo that Buffalo Bore sells is developing proper +P power levels, but with regular pressure levels. Complete with velocity measurements from real world guns.

I was just asking how they do it, not for someone to put words in my mouth like I’m trying to hand load a miracle round.

 

[Swampman]

What is a "non-canister powder" and why can't we get it as reloaders?

Cannister powders are generally kept to higher standards of consistency and repeatability than non cannister powders. This is done in several ways, two of the most common being increased process control and the blending of multiple production lots until the desired performance is achieved.

Of course this extra effort makes the powder more expensive, but this level of consistency is desirable for handloaders since it makes things like reloading manuals and standard loads possible.

Big manufacturers don't require the same consistency since they've got pressure testing equipment and processes in place to deal with the minor variations in burn rate, pressure etc. of non cannister powders.

I'm just spitballing here, but I doubt a manufacturer the size of Buffalo Bore can have a special powder made to order.