What's the magic behind boutique ammo?

[AJC1]

This has nothing to do with my question. Did you read the OP?

That ammo that Buffalo Bore sells is developing proper +P power levels, but with regular pressure levels. Complete with velocity measurements from real world guns.

I was just asking how they do it, not for some idiot to put words in my mouth like I’m trying to hand load a miracle round.

I'll give you the benifit of the doubt and assume you have no idea the level of experience and intelligence you casually insult. Do better please.

 

[bluetopper]

Factory ammo is not loaded to maximum saami pressure specs. What percentage below I'm sure depends on the ammo brand.
I would wager the only difference in Buffalo Bore Ammo is that it is loaded very nearly or right at maximum chamber pressure specifications.

That's really the ONLY difference it could be.

 

[Palladan44]

When you do enough research into handloading any specific cartridge you will identify a "Top Performer" powder combo, balancing top performance with the lowest pressure...and good case fill (powder utilizing nearly or 100% of the case capacity)
For example:
Longshot- 180gr JHP in 10mm will give top level performance, fill the case and not go over pressure limits, or can achieve best performance with the lowest pressure among the top velocity powders.
Same with say Lil-Gun or Alliant 300MP in most magnum handguns like 357 or 44

Or, how about Alliant BE-86 for your 9mm, 40 S&W, or 357SIG?

Having a powder engineered with a specific cartridge in mind has built in safety, called "engineering control" factor.
Let's say in their batch of 750,000 rounds loaded in a single lot, say some get overcharged a bit for some reason, it's a good insurance policy to know that the powder you're using will not start blowing up people's guns....so they get powders that are engineered to meet specific pressure, velocity and case-fill standards. They DO NOT just start dropping say [x]-gr. Of WIN-231 in a big case like 44mag or 10mm or 357 mag and hope that some of them don't accidentally get overfilled....

Ammo Manufacturers do not use canister powders like we use, however they are many times very similar and they do not have any "magical" powder that gives any performance advantage..Well, BE-86 was a proprietary powder unavailable to us for a long time, so im guessing there are small tweaks (ex.may contain flash suppressant) in commercial powders that we dont have, but they are ballpark the same....they just have very expensive pressure testing equipment, and a good legal team, and charge enough $ for their ammo to know that most people on earth will ever afford to fire more than...20 rounds

"Mixing" powders refers to mixing different lot #ers of the same powder to get a more uniform powder...it's not referring to mixing different powders of different type.

 

[Jim Watson]

Ammo Manufacturers do not use canister powders like we use, however they are many times very similar

Like 100% similar except in kegs or caddies instead of pound cans.
Think, if the powder mill turns out a production lot - in Phil Sharpe's day it was a carload lot, 50000 - 60000 lbs - that is dead nuts on spec for Acme 39/95 and they only have orders for 20000 one pound cans for retail, they will surely sell the rest to an OEM as "bulk powder."
The caution is, you can't KNOW that to be able use the same charge of store-bought as what is in factory, not that there was any INTENTIONAL difference or agreement between bulk and canister that week.

Trivia Alert:

On the other hand, when Vihtavuori powder first hit the US market, it was said that they made 33 powders of which only 13 were canistered for the hand loading market. Frex, it was a while before they would sell N330 by the pound, it having been their wholesale powder for 9mm OEM.

An early Handloaders Digest had a piece that said Hercules made nine different grades of Red Dot shotshell powder; listed Red Dot 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90. What you got at the store was Red Dot 30, the other grades wholesaled by spec to OEM.

Hodgdon got their start selling surplus powders like 4895 originally made for military ammo by DuPont.
I wonder if they only sold one of those carload lots, or if they back blended lots for consistency, or if they got lucky and had matching lots. Whatever the case, when they ran out of surplus, they started having something they called H4895 made by foreign contractors. Close enough.

Not all was so close, I read of one well known lot of surplus 4895 from another source, maybe DCM, that was "almost as fast as 3031."
Jac Weller wrote of loading to military match specifications, using surplus 173 gr bullets and his lot of 4895.

For a while surplus 4831 was sold as "4350 Data Powder." Being slower burning than 4350, any 4350 charge weight would be safe with 4831. Only later did Hodgdon test and publish specific loads. I don't know of anybody who uses Jack O'Conner's load in .270 any more.

Their second lot of Winchester Ball powder was enough different from the first that they labeled it Ball C 2, later Bl C2 after Winchester got ugly about their trademark.

Of small brands, a gunzine writer with Connections once got samples of all calibers from Corbon and tested them for pressure and velocity. All but one were right at the top of SAAMI pressure and at or near the claimed velocity. The .38 Special +P+ was considerably overloaded.

 

[Palladan44]

The .38 Special +P+ was considerably overloaded.

Jim W. Great info, thank you for elaborating.
Interesting by the time most any .38 +p "approved" firearm hit the market, it was likely engineered concurrently with a .357 Magnum platform, just not with the chambers "drilled out" as much.
Again, exceptions like J frames (model 36) come to mind, sure...I'm guessing the manufacturer had some type of warnings similar to what Buffalo Bore does, for example "Ruger, Dan Wesson Only" or "No Smith Model 29" loads, etc. Etc.
38 +p+ still probably nowhere near 357 Magnum pressures. My guess is the +p+ 38s were still 10,000-15,000 psi below 357 limits.
Either way, still over the limit but probably not a big deal.

 

[fxvr5]

38 +p+ still probably nowhere near 357 Magnum pressures. My guess is the +p+ 38s were still 10,000-15,000 psi below 357 limits.
Either way, still over the limit but probably not a big deal.

15,000 psi below 35,000 psi 357 Mag limit makes it 20,000, which is just 38 Special +P.

Digging around on the internet produced this article that says the Winchester 38 Special +P+ treasury load has a MAP pressure limit of 23,500 psi.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/38-special-treasury-load/389102

 

[blue32]

From my understanding, BB and other botique loaders will give a powder manufacturer a list of case, primer, and bullet they want to use for a given cartridge (or just a bullet if they have access to mutiple primers and cases). They then provide a list of performance specifications to meet, ex: "more power at standard pressure but less felt recoil than +P" and a powder is manufactured for that specific load.

These powders can and do show up on the retail market as jmorris mentions. You might be able to use them for the same or different cartridges using the same or different components but if you don't have published data you're walking on thin ice to say the least.

Do the major ammo manufacturers load their ammo to full power? Yes and no. It really depends on the cartridge. Your run of the mill PMC357B 158 JSP is not peak performance. Its made to work for a lot of guns chambered for 357. What about any factory load in 28 Nosler? Ok, that's probably a lot closer to peak performance. In the end its economies of scale and some other things I will not go into.

 

[mdi]

I don't think I'd choose any of the listed loads for a sub 2" barrel revolver. Hollow point bullets, both cast and jacketed, need speed to become effective, expand, and I use about 1000 fps as a threshold velocity. I don't see that happening in a 1.87" barrel. Another thought is bullet shape. A large meplat is more effective than a smooth round nose or hollow point that won't open. For one of my house gun loads I use a cast DEWC over a max. load of W321. Accurate and I believe for a 38 short barrel revolver, the full caliber flat face would be pretty effective at SD distances...

 

[Jim Watson]

My guess is the +p+ 38s were still 10,000-15,000 psi below 357 limits.

Supposedly .38 +P+ was for agency contracts for specific issue revolvers, whatever the gun would stand.
The Internet Rule Of Thumb was that if +P is 10% over pressure, then +P+ is 10% over that; 21% above standard, hence 21 - 22 kpsi.
The subject of the gunzine article was above 30 kpsi.

 

[drband]

At risk of offending someone, the only magic I see in boutique ammo is in the effortless transfer of funds from your pocket to the boutique ammo company’s bank acct.

 

[Palladan44]

Supposedly .38 +P+ was for agency contracts for specific issue revolvers, whatever the gun would stand.
The Internet Rule Of Thumb was that if +P is 10% over pressure, then +P+ is 10% over that; 21% above standard, hence 21 - 22 kpsi.
The subject of the gunzine article was above 30 kpsi.

Quite possibly, the FBI carried Smith and Wesson Model 13s (chambered for 357 magnum) loaded with FC .38 SPL +p+ LSWC-HP as carry ammo for a period of time. If other LE agencies followed suit, even If it was for a little while, it wouldn't surprise me a bit.
Full house 357 mags are quite a lot to handle out of model 13s, and qualification scores likely suffered tremendously. Standard pressure .38s were likely starting to be considered "too weak" so why not spice up the .38 cartridge and fire it from a .357 platform? I think that was pretty common LE practice in the 1980s up until around 1986 (if youre the FBI) and around 1991 (if you were a Sherrifs deputy in my county of residence)

 

[AJC1]

Quite possibly, the FBI carried Smith and Wesson Model 13s (chambered for 357 magnum) loaded with FC .38 SPL +p+ LSWC-HP as carry ammo for a period of time. If other LE agencies followed suit, even If it was for a little while, it wouldn't surprise me a bit.
Full house 357 mags are quite a lot to handle out of model 13s, and qualification scores likely suffered tremendously. Standard pressure .38s were likely starting to be considered "too weak" so why not spice up the .38 cartridge and fire it from a .357 platform? I think that was pretty common LE practice in the 1980s up until around 1986 (if youre the FBI) and around 1991 (if you were a Sherrifs deputy in my county of residence)

I like Mexican, and Thi food, and my 38p+. My goal is 20k and I shoot a ton of them in 357. My son prefers them over full house 357 and the brass is plentiful.

 

[fxvr5]

I don't think I'd choose any of the listed loads for a sub 2" barrel revolver. Hollow point bullets, both cast and jacketed, need speed to become effective, expand, and I use about 1000 fps as a threshold velocity. I don't see that happening in a 1.87" barrel.

BB's 158 +P HP load runs 1,040 fps from 2.0" and should be close to that in 1.875" barrels.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108

 

[tightgroup tiger]

1040fps is plenty fast enough for soft cast hollowpoints.
Matt's bullets sells just the bullets, he says he makes them to expand at 38 Spl speeds.
https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=323
I've seen before that they will expand between 700-900 fps so 1040 is actually a little fast.
I have some of those on my next order from him. Those and his hollow base wadcutters for my .357 reduced loads for my wife and my Granddaughter.
I'll load my magnum cases down to normal 38 Spl loads for them.
I'm going to try some of his 75gr wadcutters and stack them in the case. I used to flatten 00buck shot in a mold that would fit into a Speer shot capsule.
I could get 3 of them in there and they made a nice 4" pattern at 7yds. Weren't good for anything but just fun to shoot.

 

[barnfrog]

This has nothing to do with my question. Did you read the OP?

That ammo that Buffalo Bore sells is developing proper +P power levels, but with regular pressure levels. Complete with velocity measurements from real world guns.

I was just asking how they do it, not for someone to put words in my mouth like I’m trying to hand load a miracle round.

In defense of jmorris, your originally posted questions were, and I quote:

What is a "non-canister powder" and why can't we get it as reloaders?

Does that mean its a proprietary mix of common powders, or can they really make their own?

You didn't ask how they got +P power levels with regular pressure, although as i was reading the BB propaganda material I thought that was what you were going to ask. Instead, your questions implied you were looking for the powder so that you could do the same.

 

[fxvr5]

In defense of jmorris, your originally posted questions were, and I quote:

You didn't ask how they got +P power levels with regular pressure, although as i was reading the BB propaganda material I thought that was what you were going to ask. Instead, your questions implied you were looking for the powder so that you could do the same.

In defense of Smaug, I thought Smaug's question was pretty clear about asking what the magic was behind boutique ammo. The answer would be limited to stating that the magic is their choice of gunpowder, or perhaps loading to the full pressure level of the cartridge. The end. The following questions were appropriate inquiries about 'non-canister' gunpowder, since they are described in BB's text, but the definition of non-canister powders is not known by everyone.

At no point did I ever get the impression Smaug implied they were looking for a powder to do the same. That would be reading to much into Smaug's straight-forward questions - and would be considered 'putting words in his mouth'.

Thus, I feel Smaug's rebuke of jmorris' reply was understandable, since jmorris' comment was irrelevant to the questions Smaug asked. I had that feeling the moment I read jmorris' comment - why did jmorris write that?

 

[kalielkslayer]

I won’t weigh into the debate. But I will give real life experience on Buffalo Bullets.

When I went to Alaska this summer, I knew we’d be sharing the salmon river with brown bears. Although I reload for .357, I bought some hard cast, 180 grain bullets from them.

Never had an issue on the river

But in the ocean, they put really nice round holes in the heads of halibut. Game over once I shot them about 1.5” behind their eyes.

But I told my fishing partners, “next year I’m bring 125 gr reloads, the bullet is only passing through 4” of flesh.”

But I’ll have the BBS loaded when fishing the river.

 

[AJC1]

I won’t weigh into the debate. But I will give real life experience on Buffalo Bullets.

When I went to Alaska this summer, I knew we’d be sharing the salmon river with brown bears. Although I reload for .357, I bought some hard cast, 180 grain bullets from them.

Never had an issue on the river

But in the ocean, they put really nice round holes in the heads of halibut. Game over once I shot them about 1.5” behind their eyes.

But I told my fishing partners, “next year I’m bring 125 gr reloads, the bullet is only passing through 4” of flesh.”

But I’ll have the BBS loaded when fishing the river.

I'm confused your going to use 125 vs 180 for better penitration, or you didn't bring them (125) this year due to lack of penitration.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I read it as he doesn't need 180gr bullet, with all that penetration for Halibut, head is only 4" thick and 180s are overhill.
He's going 125gr for the Halibut because of it.
Going to carry 180gr for the river fishing only for his hairy friends.

 

[jmorris]

This has nothing to do with my question. Did you read the OP?

That ammo that Buffalo Bore sells is developing proper +P power levels, but with regular pressure levels. Complete with velocity measurements from real world guns.

I was just asking how they do it, not for someone to put words in my mouth like I’m trying to hand load a miracle round.

I made an attempt at answering your question at the beginning of the post you quoted. The rest was just free advice, you don’t have to follow. I haven’t even followed it my entire life, so I understand dismissal.

There are some burn rates that can do things others cannot. Why I still have HS-7 around all these years later, for example.

+P isn’t a power level, rather an indication of pressure. You could plug the bore and generate +P pressures (then some) and not have the bullet exit the gun. “+P” isn’t even a fixed percentage over regular or a standard across all calibers.



All +P+ indicates is that the ammunition is over +P pressures. So for 38 spl that would be from 20,001, all the way to kaboom.

As far as what they get and magic, we have to know how the data is collected and compare it against others the same way. Variation in powder lots, environmental conditions, etc, will likely come up though. As it happens with others, like the W296/H110 data from Hornady (they are the same powder sold under different labels) that different data was collected from.



That’s more magical to me but probably wouldn’t be if we could measure burn rate or have been there to see how the data was collected.

 

[Jim Watson]

From my understanding, BB and other botique loaders will give a powder manufacturer a list of case, primer, and bullet they want to use for a given cartridge (or just a bullet if they have access to mutiple primers and cases). They then provide a list of performance specifications to meet, ex: "more power at standard pressure but less felt recoil than +P" and a powder is manufactured for that specific load.

I will believe that when I see the purchase order and production schedule. There are just too many powders and lot variations being sold bulk that you can't cherrypick something good for a given job.

All +P+ indicates is that the ammunition is over +P pressures. So for 38 spl that would be from 20,001, all the way to kaboom.

True, but in practice, +P+ originally meant loaded for a specific gun. An early, maybe the first, was the Treasury Load meant to soup up .38 Specials being shot in Magnum revolvers.

Service ammo in 9mm, .38 Special, and .45 ACP +P are meant to soup them up to improve "stopping power" a la Home Improvement, more power, har har.
The other two are special cases.
.38 Super is listed as +P relative to the original .38 Rimless Smokeless of 1900. That is two loadings, not three. There is not a .38 Super "standard pressure" and a hotter +P.

.257 Roberts +P does not even get it up to standard .30-06 level in pizeo psi.
Looking at CUP it is 45000 vs its parent 7mm Mauser at 46000, +P is 50000 CUP, same as .30-06.
Why so mild?

As it happens with others, like the W296/H110 data from Hornady (they are the same powder sold under different labels) that different data was collected from.

I consider it likely that the Hornady manual or at least that part of the data predates Hodgdon's acquisition of Winchester distribution.
Current Hodgdon data shows W296 and H110 exactly the same, as with other Ball/Spherical labels.

 

[fxvr5]

I imagine BB's velocities are correct. I have not tried the BB ammo listed, but I have shot Underwood's 'equivalent'. Underwood loads a 38 Special +P with a 158 grain cast bullet.

https://underwoodammo.com/38-special-p-158-grain-hard-cast-keith/

It's rated at 1,250 fps, though they don't say what barrel length. My guess is that speed is from a 6" barrel - similar to what BB gets from their 6" barrel Ruger with their 158 grain SWC. (https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=288)

I've shot the Underwood from snubbies with barrels as short as 1.875". In those guns they clocked an average speed at just over 1,000 fps.

 

[AJC1]

I read it as he doesn't need 180gr bullet, with all that penetration for Halibut, head is only 4" thick and 180s are overhill.
He's going 125gr for the Halibut because of it.
Going to carry 180gr for the river fishing only for his hairy friends.

That makes more sense....

 

[kalielkslayer]

I'm confused your going to use 125 vs 180 for better penitration, or you didn't bring them (125) this year due to lack of penitration.

I only brought the gun for protection. I didn’t realize it was going to do double duty. Buffalo Bullets are PRICY! I could have shot the halibut with a .22.

Next year I’ll bring some 125s in .38 spl for the fish.. Everytime I was going to shoot a halibut I had to warn everyone to cover their ears.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[EricBu]

I am trying to wrap my head around needing to shoot halibut. I'm not this huge expert halibut guy, but we had a small stick with a lead weight on the end and just whacked the crap out of them on their head. Even barn doors instantly stopped moving.