When does "POLICE" mean police?

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Strangers come and go at my place without the door opening all the time but especially so at night. My property my terms has not been a problem even with the police as far as I can tell.

Pounding on my backdoor is a good way to get off to a bad start with me! :scrutiny:
 
It is possible to successfully fight off a botched raid.
If the unidentified men are beating in your door, and you can't think of a reason why cops would be beating in your door, you are justified in defending yourself.

Yes, you are.
See: State v. Housley, 322 N.W.2d 746, (Minn.,1982).

In this case the homeowner walked away but unfortunately Officer Mack did not.
 
sounds to me like a darn good reason to be on good terms with your local po-po...

"Ok... here's the house"
"Wait a sec... ain't this Joe Sixpack's place. The guys that pays for the department subscription to SWAT?"
"Um... yeah. Funny... never heard anything about him being bad. MAYBE we should check with dispatch..."

Of course, that only works with smaller towns (KNEW there was a reason I liked small towns)...
 
> In other words, pay off the cops and they'll try not to invade your home on accident.<

Nooo... although I suppose you could read that into what I posted. I meant what I actually said (gee... what a concept): be on good terms with them. Do you know any of your local cops? Talk with 'em? Say "hi" when you meet up with them at the local stop 'n' rob? Little things like that...

And I wouldn't consider offering back issues of SWAT "paying them off"... :rolleyes:
 
So....

Its too much to expect the police to abide by the rules of the culture? Its too much to expect the police to abide by the plain language of the Constitution? Its too much to expect the police to have a measure of human decency?

I live in "small" town, yet I see the police maybe once or twice a week. And thats ALWAYS in a patrol car unless *I* call 'em. They never wave back, they never have time to chat for a few, they never do foot patrol no more....

So strong doors, wall and windows are the order of the day anymore.

Double Naught Spy:

Sindawe, the cops won't be there on your terms.

No, but they WILL deal with me on MY terms in MY house. I break no laws, so the police have no cause to invade my home with force of arms.

I know, about this time there are those who are thinking that "Well, at least I will take a few of them with me." Good logic, sort of Vietnam body count logic. What does it matter to you just how many you take with you if you or your loved ones end up dead?

All men die, not every man lives. Death holds no fear for me. I've been here before this life, I'll be here again after this one. Shall we dance? :scrutiny:
 
I really have to agree with Double Naught Spy on this one.

It comes up a lot. People are always describing the way in which they will defend against multiple attackers busting through the front (or back) door in the middle of the night. The twist that they claim to be (or are) police doesn’t really change things that much.

If people are coming into your house by force at 0DARK30 in the morning and you are so well prepared that you can stop them, then by all means, stop them. I live in the real world and I know that I will have little chance at staying alive if I wake up at the same time that several armed men are in my living room. There is no amount of preparation that will give me the required edge in this one.

If the intruders are inept (not likely if they are real cops) then you might have a chance, and I say take advantage of any chance you get, but like Double Naught Spy said, if your feet hit the floor at the same time that your bed is surrounded by armed men, well… I think survival has more to do with cunning than force at that point. If your only survival skill is your ability to shoot then I think you’ve worked yourself into a corner in certain situations.

Gameface
 
All men die, not every man lives. Death holds no fear for me. I've been here before this life, I'll be here again after this one. Shall we dance?
crazy.gif Dude, I love the internet tough guy routine you've got going here. Especially you're little reincarnation line here. Keep flexing that keyboard tough man.

Do you have one of these stickers on your truck?
nf_red.jpg
 
Wow

Does it hurt to come up with that crap?

Look y'all are middle class suburban / rural white dudes who probably would'nt recognize crack if it was in the sugarbowl - quit trying to apply your standards of conduct in these scenarios. We blow up bad guys doors at 4 AM 'cause that is the safest time to do it. On very rare occasions we make mistakes. The last time I checked the only guy who never made a mistake in opening a door rolled a stone from the entrance to a crypt. If we come to your door by mistake we'll buy you a new one. Keep your hands in plain sight and everything'll be copacetic, not that it matters to the Off the Pigs bunch here

:rolleyes:
 
I guess the other side of the point could be that while I'm "keeping my hands in plain sight", the guys that yelled POLICE when they broke in my door will be tying me up with duct tape,(If I'm lucky) and dragging my wife into the back room.

Helluva choice to have to make in a split second at OMG it's early in the morning. :uhoh:
 
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what if?

I live in Memphis,which is in Shelby County, and I had thought about this possible scenario before i saw it on the local news. Someone on this forum has a link in their sig line to a webpage for the victims of the war on drugs, it is full of people getting shot up in the middle of the night while they try to protect their home from who they think are criminals. When it's actually the local PD doing a a no knock raid on the info they get from a crackhead informent. In the middle of the night if some one is trying to come into my house Im comming out of bed with my 870, Im thinking if the police see me coming with said 870 theres a decent chance I'll be getting shot. That short amount of time when Im at one end of the house in boxers 870 shouldered with the surefire pointed their way and they stand there in their tac gear with their whatevers shouldered with their surefires pointed at me, thats what im not sure of, I know this is the time they should be identifing themselves but If Im a cop Im gonna be more worried about the angry naked man with the shotgun pointed at me. Would some LE types inform me of what great training the police get to not kill homeowners thinking they are protecting their home, just so I'll sleep better tonight.
Oh and not to long ago in Memphis some sheriffs got shot on a drug raid in Memphis so I kow when things like this are happening the police are gonna be alot more juiced when they are hittin the door.
 
Do you have one of these stickers on your truck?

No, I don't drive a truck. Nor do I have one on my car.

Does it hurt to come up with that crap?

No, does it hurt you parrot back this bit of theological fantasy? *

The last time I checked the only guy who never made a mistake in opening a door rolled a stone from the entrance to a crypt.

DMF, sendec, you guys are missing the point. The home owner has no way of telling if the door kickers are cops or not UNTIL the documentation (the warrant) is presented and verified. ANYBODY can, and HAS obtained clothing that looks like a police uniform, get a shiny badge and yell out "POLICE! SEARCH WARRANT!!" while invading a home with ill intent. I take it you guys want non-LEOs to meekly submit to anybody with the color of authority, legitimate or not.

We blow up bad guys doors at 4 AM 'cause that is the safest time to do it.

Safest for who? Oh, right. "Officer Safety" :scrutiny:

You guys are CIVIL SERVANTS. Civil Servants with additional powers of detainment, arrests and use of lethal force, but still Civil Servants. Servants of the people. Don't like the risk inherent to the job? Get a different freaking job!

Sure, the resident of the home who does not put up a fight USUALLY is safe when the cops bust in. 'Cept for the 12 y/o boy who was shot in the back with a shotgun due to a ND. 'Cept for the woman who was shot in the neck and died pleading with cops not to hurt her children. 'Cept for the chap in New York who was killed while pulling out his wallet/ID as ordered.

For MY safety, and that of my loved ones, I MUST operate under the presumption that door kickers at O-dark thirty have ill intent, until proven otherwise. I've said before, if the warrant is legit, there'll be no further obstruction and we'll fight the matter out in a court of law. Why is that so tough for you guys to comprehend?

* On the matter of theological fantasy, I'm a firm believer that one man's faith is another man's belly laugh. Christian mythos is no more/less silly than that of the Hindu, the Jew, the Animist or the Pagan. Stories of gender/shape changing Gods who give birth to eight-legged horses from my faith is on par with changing water to wine, rising to life three days dead, and dancing, four armed, black skinned creators/destoryers.
 
Posted by kngflp
Would some LE types inform me of what training the police get to not kill homeowners thinking they are protecting their home, just so I'll sleep better tonight.

Good question. It has been asked repeatedly on this forum and on CopTalk.

No LEO ever provides an answer, though.

P. S. "An officer's life is worth more than an innocent civilian's" is not an acceptable response, IMHO.
 
It does sound like the best course is to have all doors strengthened such that only explosives would take them down quickly, and have upper or non-obvious windows with good vantage points of the door and surroundings. Then you presumably have time to properly identify the parties.

Of course, even if they did get through the door, they have to get past the dogs and through the toys/shoes/backpacks/lunchboxes minefield that my kids seem to leave at every door....heck, I'd probably have time to brew a pot of coffee.
 
Really, out of the thousands and thousands of warrants that are served every year, how many are served at your houses?..Dont you have real problems to think about? I suppose beating your chest over the perils posed by the POlice beats watching "Red Dawn" again.
 
I take a three day vacation and this is what happens?

MODERATOR NOTE:

The death-spiral that is this thread will straighten out immediately and the discussion will return to the highroad and not further digress, or appropriate sanction will be visited upon whichever knucklehead pulls the thread back into the gutter, regardless of sworn-LEO status.

I trust I'm being plain enough?


On to the discussion.

Here are the issues we have:

1. No knocks are evil- no, wait. This has nothing to do with no-knocks. This could apply to any brand of warrant service, be it via high-speed low drag ninja types, or by a handful of patrol officers in their street uniforms.

2. It is not illegal to buy any and all of the gear that these Bad Guys are using to make them look like Good Guys. So, there's really no way to stop them, besides the 'specific incapacitation' method. If someone wants to dress up and play cop, they can and will.

3. A cop with a warrant has the legal authority to kick down a door. He does not have to wait for the homeowner to peruse the paperwork before gaining entry. The warrant gives him the legal authority to enter the house, right now. The homeowner can make whatever chest-thumping vows he wishes to make, but once the warrant is issued he has no say. If he resists the service of the warrant, well...thats why some of them are served the way they are. This is done because *gasp* a lot of people exercise their second amendment rights by shooting at the police and also destroy evidence (for you anti War on Drugs types, consider that non-drug paper evidence can be burned as easily as dope can be flushed. Its not all about the green and white contraband).

Now, is this a conundrum? Of course it is. Someone shows up on your doorstep claiming to be the cops with a warrrant. What do you do? Let them in and they're bad guys, you're screwed. Don't let them in and they're good guys, you're screwed.

The problem is that there is no way around this, really. The cops cannot just cool their heels while the homewoner satisfies himself that this is on the up and up. Its a warrant. They're coming in. The Constitution allows this.

Mike
 
I don't want to get into the chest beating "if they knock on my door" stuff, none of us know how we'll react unless/until it happens. Many of the most testosterone laden posters when in a "real" situations become paralized with fear and inaction, while the more "thoughtful" of us sometimes become raging maniacs. This is true for all the "what if" scenarios that come up here. I also don't see where one more "cops are bad", "no we aren't" thread will do any good.

What I do want to say is these situations seem to be getting all too common. If the cops on the board don't like it when people say anyone crashing their home gets greeted with lead unless they produce a warrant, and given that more and more bad guys are posing as cops, what can we do? It is obvious that not many people here like the "hope for the best" mentality- if we did we wouldn't be gun owners.

BTW- there is a maniac out there in Baltimore right now who drives a Crown Vic with a cop light and has been pulling over women in broad daylight and raping them. Anyone in MD, make sure that if an "unmarked" car tries to pull you over, you call 911 immediately (and don't pull over until the 911 operator tells you there is a real cop behind you and/or there is a marked car there too). An email warning went out at work last week to be sure everyone knew about it (state govt).


Oh, one comment here did catch my eye:

If we come to your door by mistake we'll buy you a new one.
I have a friend who used to live in a rather ugly Balt City neighborhood. One day the SWAT team comes and breaks down the door of the person across the street from him. They leave without arresting someone, but what really shocks him is that 30 min later a maintenance type van with "POLICE" written on it pulls up and puts up a new door. It appears breaking down the wrong door is pretty common in Baltimore. :eek:
 
. . . for you anti War on Drugs types, consider that non-drug paper evidence can be burned as easily as dope can be flushed. Its not all about the green and white contraband . . .
Don't forget formatting hard drives, running magnets over disks. A little extra time and the evidence is gone.
 
I'll concede to the fact that the Law Enforcement community needs to be able to move quickly when they serve a warrant to prevent destruction of possible evidence and to ensure their safety.

I think you would agree that all WE'RE saying is that you guys need to do ALL your homework first to make dang sure you're kicking the right door down.
 
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Sure, real law enforcement has the explosives to take out any door, but I've never heard of bad guys using explosives to gain entry?


My philosophy is that there should be three really strong doors, dead bolted, between you, your family, and the street when you're sleeping.

A cell phone on the nightstand is good for when these home invasion thugs cut your phone wires.

A dog or two is heplfull.

Closed circuit security cameras seem to get cheaper every year.

Good exterior lighting around the house is a preventative.

An AR or AK would be a better home defense weapon han a shotgun in these cases?
 
I don't think anybody really expects a mistake-free world, but Shovehead's "I think you would agree that all WE'RE saying is that you guys need to do ALL your homework first to made dang sure you're kicking the right door down." goes to the heart of the problem.

I guess I'm sensitized to this because of my memory: Back in the Nixon era, when AG John Mitchell first lobbied the "No knock" law through Congress as part of the War on Drugs, one of the very first DEA no-knock raids was to a wrong address (correct building; wrong apartment) and the resident thereafter spent his life in a wheelchair.

Cool Hand Luke's comments are as sad a commentary as ever I've seen about the reality of some parts of Good Ol' Modern America.

Art
 
Oh, Shovelhead. I agree. Completely.

Also, CoolHandLuke: think about one thing.

If it prevents bad guys from getting in, it can prevent good guys from getting out.

In case of fire you will need to abandon your house pretty quickly. I can think of at least one instance where the homeowner died inside because he could not get out and the FD could not get in.

I'm not saying its a bad idea...just something to consider in your planning.

Mike
 
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Time to talk of warrants and evidence and sealing wax.

Please bear with me if I ramble a bit here.

Warrants:

IMHO, warrants serve three functions.

1) As documentation that the agents of the law have taken the time and effort to do their homework and have a sound enough argument to convince a magistrate of that fact. So the magistrate signs off on the warrant.

2) As temporary license for the agents of the law in the field to enter a location to search for the items or persons named in the warrant and seize them if found.

3) As notification to the occupants of the location to be searched that the holders of the warrant are legitimate agents of the law, have authority to enter the location named and search, and are held to the standards and conduct of the law. The holding and presentation of the warrant was sufficent to verify the legitimacy of the action to the occupants. They are not bad guys operating under the color of the law.

Point 3 seems to have been forgoten by agents of law these days, and looks to be the major point of contention here, at least by myself.

I've seen only a few warrants, and those posted on the net in relation to publicized contested cases. From what I've seen, a warrant can be easily duplicated by anybody with a cheap PC, a laser printer and a bit of time. In years gone by, most folks did not have easy access to printing presses, typesetting equipment and the like. Bad guys planning big jobs may have taken the steps needed to forge the documents to make the job run safer and simplify access to the desired booty. Average burglers and home invaders would not.

This is no longer the case. Bad guys now have at their disposal the means to make officical looking documents that pass a cursory examination, such that a homeowner or occupant would accept as valid when faced with a group of people dressed in the garb of police and demanding entry. This is why I've called for verification of the documention and its legitimacy, as feedthehogs did here.

Years back I was served a subpoena for a law suit at 4:30am by a plain clothed detective. I made him call the dispatcher and have her call the house to verify who he was. When asked for my number, I said your the police, you can get it. He was not a happy camper but complied.

LEOs here and their supporters have rejected this idea, and perhaps rightly so. I propose that its time to make warrants as impossible to duplicate as possible, and standardized across each state. Perhaps using the techniques similar to that our nation does with its currency, or software vendors do with holograms of authenticity.

Print warrants up on specialized paper that only the courts and their agents have access to. On the face to be printed on is a high color holographic watermark or something similar, bearing the seal of the state that is instantly recognizable and assures the occupant that these are indeed the good guys and not bad guys dressed up a good guys.

(I'm not going to address "knock and announce" warrants, wait times,'No-knock" warrants or the War on Some Drugs here. Those are whole other cans of worms.) :D

Evidence:

Based apon my limited understanding, (forensics is not my trade, nor a hobby) with advances in forensic science, its nearly impossible to totally destroy evidence of crimminal activity. Illicit chemicals burned will leave a residue, those washed down the drain will leave traces in the piping. The ancillary equipment can be smashed, but as yet not reduced to its component molecules and atoms in a short period of time. Paper documentation shreaded can be reassembled, and it takes time to burn paper, 'specially if there is a good chunk of it from an on going crimmial operation. Fire the building at a police raid, and there is the question of why the building was fired, 'specially if the building was rigged beforehand to be fired at a moments notice.

Data on hard drives can be recovered from formated/trashed disk unless the sectors containing the data is overwritten or the disk platters are physically smashed to bits. Smashing a hard drive to bits takes time, more time than waiting at the door for an answer.
 
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