When does "POLICE" mean police?

[Strings]

kook just broke the mold. BRAVO, sir!

The original question (for those who have been sniping at each other over the "thin blue line") was essentially "how do we know if it's ACTUALLY the police knocking on the door, or crooks dressed as police?". Now, I'll trust the LEOs here to correct me if I'm worng, but there isn't alot of shouting "POLICE!" during the initial stages of the breach on a no-knock, correct? And they go down REALLY fast (hence the term "dynamic"). So no-knocks are NOT the subject of the thread (or, at least, the initial question)...


It would seem to me that, if there's somone pounding on the door at 0dark30 saying they're police, it wouldn't be THAT hard to look outside for squads, or to call dispatch for verification. Figure the call might go somethihng like this:

"911 emergency,"
"Yeah... I'm at 123 West 4th Street, and there's someone claiming to be an officer at my door. Can you verify that he IS such, and acting in an official capacity?"
"Hold on a moment sir..."

At that point, you already have 911 on the line. If it turns out that it is NOT a legitimate cop outside your door, you can then inform the operator that you need a squad at your address (or, if things escalate before the squad arrives, an ambulence or coroner)...

Then again, maybe I'm just being too reasonable...

 

[F4GIB]

Sendec asks "Why does this horse get flogged so regularly?"

IMHO, for two reasons:
(1) Because it happens too often (even if seldom).
(2) And "S**t Happens" simply isn't an acceptable response.

The posters who raise the issue are from the class of persons for whom this does present a significant threat. For example, most (all?) posters on THR have no worries about a proper search because there is nothing they do that could lead to one, but there is no way to protect one's self (by living a law-abiding life, etc.) from a botched raid. As the Baltimore incident (and others) illustrates, even full compliance does not guarantee you won't be injured. A botched raid is a paperwork nightmare for the officers involved. It's a life-altering disaster for the innocent victim.

Go back over some of the recent threads. In almost every wrong address case some officer did screw up. The last incident that I recall, the sole officer who knew the correct premises stayed at the office and sent out a raid team that had nothing but the wrong address to go on. If he'd gone along, there would have been no raid on the wrong house. In the Baltimore FBI shooting, the several agents were shouting contradictory commands at the terrified victim who obeyed the wrong agent. Apparently no one was exerting control over the team of agents.

In these situations, it's time to fess up and pay up. Not defend the screw-up on the basis that the disaster could have been worse. Or on the basis that usually we do better (which is true). Everybody else (doctors, lawyers, truch drivers,...) is liable for negligence. There is no "good faith" defense to removing the wrong breast or to missing a statute of limitations.

No one defends frivolous claims by drug dealers such as Ballew. Throwing them up is a smokescreen. The threads you complain of aren't about those cases. These threads and the civilian outrage are about the "frivolous" defenses when innocent persons are injured.

As to your request for data about the FTCA. There are no readily available public records regarding the FTCA (other that individual court files) that I know of. Like FTCA court filings, warrent data is available, if at all, in millions of individual case files in 10,000 courthouses in the USA. That's not readily available either.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Door kickers are hostile borders, and will we dealt with as such.

NO EXCEPTIONS

Exactly right. DNS said something to the effect that you will be dead, and what comfort is there if you take them with you. Well, when it comes to this kind of thing, it is about one's patriotic duty not to surrender to those who would transform this nation into a police state tyranny. A willingness to die in defense of American liberty is an honorable thing, and ought to be praised. I am an entirely harmless person to those who do not seek to violate my rights. As for anyone else, I am quite dangerous. That's as it should be. The more Americans there are with this attitude, the less likely this nation will become a police state tyranny.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

A cop with a warrant has the legal authority to kick down a door. He does not have to wait for the homeowner to peruse the paperwork before gaining entry. The warrant gives him the legal authority to enter the house, right now. The homeowner can make whatever chest-thumping vows he wishes to make, but once the warrant is issued he has no say. If he resists the service of the warrant, well...thats why some of them are served the way they are. This is done because *gasp* a lot of people exercise their second amendment rights by shooting at the police and also destroy evidence (for you anti War on Drugs types, consider that non-drug paper evidence can be burned as easily as dope can be flushed. Its not all about the green and white contraband).

The warrant was established for the primary purpose of informing the home owner that the person at the door is an official agent of the legitimate authorities. That is to say, it is designed to let him know that he doesn't need to repel him as an intruder, because the agent will conduct himself according to law. With a 4:00 AM raid, however, there is no opportunity to inspect the warrant to determine its validity, so there is no opportunity to know that this is not an intruder with evil intent. We are back to might makes right, every man for himself, the rule of law having been thrown out. The result is that innocent people are being murdered by cops for behaving rationally in the face of a home invasion. That's the problem.

 

[sendec]

Every single search warrant granted and returned is on file with the appropriate Clerk of Courts. (Some may be sealed as part of an ongoing investigation, to be unsealed when the case is closed). If you think this is a problem worthy of debate you're evidence'll be right there for your perusual. They are all public records. Have at it.

 

[DMF]

sendec, shame on you for interrupting the rants with logic and facts.

 

[F4GIB]

From the archives of the Baltimore SUN:

Judge lets suit against FBI agent proceed
Pasadena man was shot in the face
Case of mistaken identity
Victim, ex-girlfriend asking for $10 million
Published on: November 14, 2003
Edition: ARUNDEL
Section: LOCAL
Page: 1B
Byline: SUN STAFF
Allison Klein

A federal judge in Baltimore ruled yesterday that a $10 million excessive-force claim can go forward against an FBI agent who shot an unarmed Pasadena man in the face after mistaking him for a bank robber.

It was a key hurdle in the closely watched case involving Special Agent Christopher R. Braga, who shot Joseph C. Schultz with an M-4 rifle during a botched arrest March 1 last year.

Does anyone (especially those with LEO access) know whether the FBI ever compensated Mr. Schultz (the innocent driver) for being shot in the face by Agent Braga?

 

[DMF]

Does anyone (especially those with LEO access) know whether the FBI ever compensated Mr. Schultz (the innocent driver) for being shot in the face by Agent Braga?

Quit acting like you don't know how the system works. First LEOs don't get "access" to everything going on in DOJ and the AGs office.

Second if the the DOJ is defending the suit, then why would they have already compensated him? Geez, I thought you were a lawyer!

Finally, as much as you whine about Braga, and there being no remedy in that and other cases, from what you posted it sure looks like he will get to make his case in court, so there is a remedy available to him. Whether or not a jury will buy his argument is a different story entirely.

 

[Sindawe]

I've read over the case cited by DMF

and let it simmer for a while. Yep, the agent goofed, and the warrant was invalid. Yes, it was a clerical error, but its an error non the less. Fourtune smiled and no one was physically injured or killed here. This is not always the case, sad to say. Sometimes the injured party has sufficent financial resources to pursue the case, from what I've seen, mostly this is not the case.

As I've said before, there is naught in my home or habits that would warrant forcing entry into my home. If the police have not done sufficent homework and research to deterime such, they are lax in their duties. I stand by my earlier statement.

 

[DMF]

Sindawe,

Please realize the only problem was the piece of paper Groh faxed to the attorney the next day should have been stapled to the warrant when they served it. Yes, it was an error (however small), yes it invalidated the warrant, and yes I'm sure SA Groh has and will suffer for it. However, that lack of a piece of paper did not increase the danger in that situation, they were still going to go to that house, still serve the warrant. I will be interested to see what, if any, award is given to Ramirez by a jury in the civil suit, because the actual harm in this case was almost non-existent.

Which is why I point this case out. Yes, there was a problem, but even one this miniscule, gets addressed by the courts, so I have a hard time believing the more outrageous allegations get brushed under the carpet.

Also, as to the resources to fight these cases, as I pointed out before there are plenty of lawyers eager to take these cases, in hopes of a big payoff.

 

[Sindawe]

so I have a hard time believing the more outrageous allegations get brushed under the carpet

Here I think of the Mena case ('cause it occured near where I live). Officer makes "mistakes" in getting warrant, warrant served to wrong address, innocent person is killed.

---
Cop pleads guilty in raid

Deal may allow Bini to keep his badge in failed drug bust that led to shooting death

By Sue Lindsay
Denver Rocky Mountain News Staff Writer

Suspended Denver police officer Joseph Bini beamed after pleading guilty Thursday to a misdemeanor charge that may allow him to keep his badge.

Bini, 31, was headed for trial next week on three felony charges when prosecutors cut the deal, largely because of a judge's ruling that barred them from presenting most of their evidence to a jury.

Bini was the only officer charged in connection with a botched no-knock raid that claimed the life of Ismael Mena on Sept. 29, 1999, when officers struck the wrong house.

"Ismael Mena's family and his spirit have not received any kind of justice in this case," said LeRoy Lemos, spokesman for the Justice for Mena Committee, a group that formed in reaction to the killing.

Mena, a Mexican citizen and father of nine, was shot eight times after he pointed a gun at SWAT officers who had stormed his bedroom.

"Legal murder, that's what it is," said committee member Mary Miera. "Joe Bini should have to look Ismael Mena's nine children in the face and explain to them what happened to their father."

The committee has asked Mayor Wellington Webb and safety manager Ari Zavaras to fire Bini.

"He has shown that he is incapable of competently fulfilling his duties as a police officer," Lemos said.

Denver paid Mena's survivors $400,000 to settle a lawsuit.

Bini pleaded guilty to official misconduct, but still maintains he broke no law.

He was charged with making false statements on an affidavit and deceiving a judge to obtain a no-knock search warrant.

"We're just happy that it's over, and now I can get on with my life," Bini said as he left the courtroom, adding that he hopes to return to work as a police officer. "Absolutely. I love my job. Love my job."

Two felony perjury charges and one felony charge of deceiving the judge who approved the warrant were dropped as part of the plea bargain.

The official misconduct charge carries a maximum penalty of one year in jail and a $1,000 fine, but his plea agreement does not require jail time.

Denver District Judge Shelley Gilman will sentence Bini Dec. 1.

Special prosecutor Charles Tingle of the Jefferson County district attorney's office said his office conducted an exhaustive investigation of facts behind the case.

"The disposition is one we believe is fair, equitable and holds the defendant accountable," he said.

A felony conviction would have barred Bini from returning to work, but the misdemeanor conviction means his future rests with Police Chief Gerry Whitman.

"Joe always admitted there were mistakes in the warrant, but a mistake is a far cry from perjury and there was no perjury here," defense attorney David Bruno said.

Last month Gilman barred mention of Mena's death during the trial. She also ruled jurors couldn't hear that no drugs were found at Mena's house but were at a neighboring house. They would also not hear that Bini made a similar error in 1998.

October 6, 2000
---

Source: http://home.pacbell.net/rsdotson/sources/Cop pleads guilty in raid.htm

Bini gets to plead guilty to a freaking misdemeanor, and is the only LEO brought up on charges. The warrant was served on the WRONG HOUSE.

OK, not under the carpet, but the words "wrist" and "slap" fit here. Sadly, this is not an isolated case. Do you know of Donald Scott, and the lies of him growing marijuana on his property? Marijuana that was not there, lies laid to get the property added to National Forest land? Lies that end up with Scott dead in his own house.

 

[F4GIB]

Sindawe posted:

Two felony perjury charges and one felony charge of deceiving the judge who approved the warrant were dropped as part of the plea bargain.

The official misconduct charge carries a maximum penalty of one year in jail and a $1,000 fine, but his plea agreement does not require jail time [nor loss of LEO status].

What a sweet deal.

This shows one reason why it's not smart to shoot the masked intruders breaking into your home at 3am. If you are dead, there's only one version of the facts and it'll make the intruders look goooood.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

This shows one reason why it's not smart to shoot the masked intruders breaking into your home at 3am. If you are dead, there's only one version of the facts and it'll make the intruders look goooood.

You're not getting it. It's a catch 22 because if you choose to become passive it is just as likely (perhaps more so) that the intruder will turn out to be a bad guy who will do worse than just shoot you dead on the spot, though that might come in the end too. Best option seems to be to be heavily armed at all times, have the highest rated body armor next to your bed, have the most secure doors and window you can afford, and have a dog in the house at night who will bark his head off at the sound of someone approaching the house. Sensors built into the driveway might be a smart idea too, not to mention video surveillance cameras. It's a shame that it's come to the point in this nation where those who respect the rights and property of others need actually fear the police as much as (if not more than) the "bad guys."