When does "POLICE" mean police?

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What bothers me (and IMHO virtually all the civilian posters) is the "Ho, Hum" attitude displayed by almost every LEO on this board, GlockTalk, and other boards to the death, injury, and fear that the officers participating in these raids impose, all too often, on entirely innocent persons. Actually, it's more a reckless disregard for the potential harm and a sense of juvenile glee at the prospect of "action." Truely a bad combination for public servants granted such power over the rest of us.

"S**t Happens" is not a acceptable response to these tragedies.
 
Based apon my limited understanding, (forensics is not my trade, nor a hobby) with advances in forensic science, its nearly impossible to totally destroy evidence of crimminal activity.
Yes and no, some evidence especially computer evidence is VERY easily destroyed. Beyond that even if evidence is not completely destroyed it may be destroyed, or altered, enough to make proof beyond a reasonable doubt impossible.

Sorry, but I'm not willing to let murderers, drug dealers, child molestors, identity thieves, rapists, theives, etc, etc, destroy the evidence while "pretending" to verify the warrant.

As for the 4 thugs pretending to be cops kicking in the door at 4AM, well if you've got time to mount a counter assault you've got time to quickly peek out any window. I guarantee, there is no mistaking a few thugs, for what will be outside your house on a real dynamic entry. On any warrant where there will be the likelyhood of a dynamic entry you will have tons of personnel present, not just doing the entry, but also securing the area around the dwelling. Not only will there be a team coming in the doors/windows, but there will also be a slew of people outside.

My most recent warrant service was three agencies. Like the vast majority of warrants it was being served in daylight, and was knock and announce. It was not considered a "high threat" warrant, so no SWAT team, but there were three marked cruisers, 4 uniformed officers, and over 15 plainclothes LEOs who had all the "colors" prominently displayed.

See the difference between the real thing, and the thugs?

Is it possible two, three, or four cops will serve a warrant? Sure, but they aren't doing that if they think there is even the slightest chance that entry will be refused, because if the SHTF they don't have enough people to control the situation, and maintain safety for everyone. So that scenario is extremely rare.

As for this:
I think you would agree that all WE'RE saying is that you guys need to do ALL your homework first to made dang sure you're kicking the right door down." goes to the heart of the problem.
We do, and the Nixon era mistakes that Art referenced have resulted in EXTREME caution to ensure the correct address. I can't change the mistakes from three decades ago, but I can tell you EVERY LEO I work with is extremely careful to make sure we are following the law, and keeping EVERYONE safe, not just the cops.

Contrary to F4GIB's claims that there is indifference to, or even glee about, the dangers presented to EVERYONE, what I see at work, across the board with fed, state, and local LEOs, is a desire to do things in a responsibile manner, that ensures we do not needlessly hurt or intimidate anyone, including the suspects. Some here will never believe that what I've described it true, but I've worked for two agencies, and done warrant service in three different states, working with dozens of different agencies (fed, state and local), and the attitude I've described is the attitude I have seen displayed across the board on the job. We are trained to operate that way, and that's how we do it.
 
This is why I've called for verification of the documention and its legitimacy, as feedthehogs did here.

quote:
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Years back I was served a subpoena for a law suit at 4:30am by a plain clothed detective. I made him call the dispatcher and have her call the house to verify who he was. When asked for my number, I said your the police, you can get it. He was not a happy camper but complied.
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In case you are not aware, there is a world of difference between a subpoena, and a search warrant. Two different beasts, two verify different avenues for getting compliance. You're comparing apples and oranges.
 
DMF,

It's not the mistakes from three decades ago that concern us. It's the ones from last week and the ones that are going to occur next week. Maybe even in our own neighborhoods. These raid related errors aren't limited to crime-prone neighborhoods occupied by marginal folks.

If you are going to quote me, you should do it accurately (use the <copy> feature in Windows). I don't think anyone is indifferent to the dangers presented to police. You say "Contrary to F4GIB's claims that there is indifference to, or even glee about, the dangers presented to EVERYONE, what I see at work, across the board with fed, state, and local LEOs, is a desire to do things in a responsibile manner, that ensures we do not needlessly hurt or intimidate anyone, including the suspects."

I won't deny your good faith but let's be real. For example, COPS is a Department Approved depiction of actual police activity (the Chief has total editorial veto power over what is shown) and what I describe occurs in almost every other episode, often more than once. Or, ride with inner city EMS (as I did for years) and sit around a police station and listen to the cops reel off one tale of this sort after another (or come by the firehouse at 3am for coffee and relate the evening's activities). Or watch (or read) the defensiveness or outright indifference of the police spokesmen when something like this occurs. BTW, has the INNOCENT young man (Jensen?) that FBI Special Agent Barga shot in the face in Baltimore (2 years ago) received either an agency apology or financial compensation for his greivious injuries? I'll bet you $5 that he has not.

There are a lot of LEO's out there who aren't helping you make your argument.
 
If you are going to quote me, you should do it accurately
F4GIB, when I quote you I do cut and past, and either use the QUOTE wraps as I did here, or quotation marks (" "). Nothing I posted was a direct quote, but neither was it a misrepresentation of your comments. You spoke of indifference and glee, and I responded to that.

As for your claims of "fire station" boasts, and the "COPS" TV show. I haven't sat in the firehouse in question, nor do I watch "COPS." However, I do actually serve felony warrants. I have worked the investigations, done the "homework," participated in the planning, and stood at the door knocking. The folks I work with are NOT indifferent to the safety of anyone, and do not find "glee" in the potential for violence. Do we find satisfaction in doing a good job, and helping to seek justice? Sure do. However, there is no indifference or glee when it comes to the dangers to cops, suspects, or any innocent bystanders.

Will there occasionally be errors? Sure will, but I guarantee cops are doing everything they can to avoid them. However, NO person, or organization will ever be 100% error free. That's not indifference, that's the cold hard facts. Just like a retired fighter pilot used to tell me, "I could have guaranteed my wing wouldn't crash another plane or hit the wrong target, by simply never flying another mission. But that's not what the planes, and crews are for, and therefore I work to minimize the risk while still getting the job done." The same is true in LE. We can guarantee there will never be another error in service of a warrant, but that means never serving another warrant. That would mean no longer enforcing the law, and advocating anarchy. Sorry, but I'm not ready to surrender to the lawless thugs and allow anarchy. Are you?
 
DMF said:

In case you are not aware, there is a world of difference between a subpoena, and a search warrant. Two different beasts, two verify different avenues for getting compliance. You're comparing apples and oranges.

Yes, I am aware that there is a difference 'tween a supoena and a search warrant. I was using feedthehogs case as an example of my reasoning, not of the application of law. My bad, I should have stated such.

Can you point me in the direction where the process of search warrant execution is codified into law for your state, if it is? I've been searching Colorado's statutes for this (since I live here and fall under the jurisdiction of Colorado law) and so far I'm finding nothing that touches on the rules for serving warrants and protocol for "knock and announce" warrants. What happens if entry is refused, yes, but even that looks to only cover cases related to alcoholic beverages, and clearly excludes homes.

Source: Colorado Revised Statutes - as found on LexisNexis http://www.lexisnexis.com/

12-47-905. Warrants - searches and seizures.

...
(3) The officer charged with the execution of said warrant, when necessary to obtain entrance or when entrance has been refused, may break open any premises (other than a home), wagon, automobile, truck, vehicle, contrivance, thing, or device which by said warrant the officer is directed to search and may execute said warrant any hour of the day or night.
...

Granted, I may not be using the right search terms, and will take pointers there as well.
 
Regarding fighter pilots, those who land at the wrong airport, soon become non-rated supply officers. Landing at the wrong airport is not considered an "acceptable" hazard of flying (bumping wings and off-target bomb falls are).

Raiding the wrong house and injuring the innocent should not be an "acceptable" hazard of law enforcement. Aircrew take risks, police take risks, Ma and Pa Simple sitting at home watching QVC on the tube don't take those risks. You think they should, I disagree.
 
I wouldnt even say it advocates lawlesness or anarchy.

IIRC, police departments are a relatively new invention. Prior to the mid-19th century, they didnt exist. In many parts of this country, eliminating them and relying upon the citizens to police themselves isnt such a bad idea.

Granted - thats probably just a bit too much responsibility for too many people to feel comfortable giving to the general public, but maybe its time to expect more from everyone.

Has the added bonus of reducing costs for the local government.
 
F4GIB, the risk to Ma and Pa watching QVC is no different than if the pilot punches out and his jet hits their house. Think it doesn't happen? In 1995 a T-38 at Sheppard crashed into an apartment complex when the pilots bailed out. Neither one ended up losing their wings and becoming a supply officer. The people living in that apartment didn't ask to accept that risk either. There are other examples, but I was at Sheppard when that one happened so it always sticks out in my mind.

EDIT TO ADD:
2 DIE AS AIR FORCE TRAINING JET CRASHES INTO APARTMENT COMPLEX

An Air Force training jet billowing black smoke crashed into an apartment complex Wednesday, engulfing one building and several cars in flames. At least two people were killed and 16 hurt.

The T-38's two pilots ejected just before the plane went down. They parachuted onto the athletic field at a high school and were not seriously hurt. . .

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot/issues/1995/vp950601/06010433.htm
 
Has anyone bothered to do something radical, like valid and reliable research? Like how many warrants of what ilk are served annually and what number are at the wrong address?

Really, this problem is minute. You stand a better chance of being killed by your doctor or being probed by aliens than have 5-0 pop your door at 0430. Here it comes - "one is too many, blarg blarg blarg" Well If you want perfect cops have Omnicorp build ya some.

Having applied for warrants backed up with plat maps, photos of the place, and me swearing that all the facts contained therein are true and accurate, I am telling you, the "problem" is miniscule.
 
Hmmm... is it even possible to find out the numbers, Sendec? Not trying to be arguementative, just not sure where the heck I'd start lokoing for accurate, unbiased numbers to compare # of warrants issued v # of mistaken warrants. However, I WILL agree that this would be the place to really start...
 
sendec said:

Having applied for warrants backed up with plat maps, photos of the place, and me swearing that all the facts contained therein are true and accurate, I am telling you, the "problem" is miniscule.

Its not miniscule to those who's homes are invaded and searched 'cause somebody did not do their homework or flat out lied to get the warrant. Ask Ishmeal Mena about how miniscule the problem is. Oh, wait, you can't. He's dead as a result of this "problem".

Yes, mistakes happen. And you your line of work sendec, sometimes those mistakes end up with people getting killed who should not have been killed, and would not have if those mistakes had not been made. If my physician makes a mistakes that permanently damages me, or kills me, I or my family can sue for redress and maybe get him barred from practicing medicine. If I make a mistake and accidently kill you in a vehicular accident, I'll likely face severe punishment. From what I've observed over the years, when those in your chosen profession make a mistake that gets somebody killed, theres not alot of repercussions faced. Suspension, docking of pay, maybe termination in that location.

If this is not normally the case, I'm willing to listen to citations to the contrary.

On the question of statistics for warrants sendec, I've no clue where to start looking, but I'm open to suggestions. This deals with your line of work, which makes you the authority here. You assistance would be appreciated.
 
If my physician makes a mistakes that permanently damages me, or kills me, I or my family can sue for redress and maybe get him barred from practicing medicine. If I make a mistake and accidently kill you in a vehicular accident, I'll likely face severe punishment. From what I've observed over the years, when those in your chosen profession make a mistake that gets somebody killed, theres not alot of repercussions faced. Suspension, docking of pay, maybe termination in that location.

If this is not normally the case, I'm willing to listen to citations to the contrary.
Here is my favorite case cite on this matter. It involves an ATF agent who made a clerical error on a warrant, and is now being sued. Now keep in mind they went to the correct address, and no one was hurt. Had the agent attached the papers, that he faxed to the defense attorney the next day, to the flawed warrant they actually served, there would have been no problem.

Read this case, and tell me how if an agent can get sued over a minor error like this, where no one got hurt, how you think agents can get away with the claimed abuses we hear claimed on THR:

Link to the decision and opinions in Groh v. Ramirez et al (2004)

Please read both the decision and majority and minority opinions, as that will give you a clear picture of what happened in this case.

Here is some discussion of the matter over on GT - Cop Talk: http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=289843&highlight=warrant
 
What makes Groh v. Ramirez et al (2004) remarkable is that the agent was found liable.

DMF never mentions the hundreds (probably thousands) of cases where the innocent person is left without any remedy at all. Those cases aren't reported so maybe DMF doesn't "know" they exist. But they do. Notice that he hasn't taken up my bet regarding the FBI's refusal to compensate the young man in Baltimore whose life was ruined by an overeager FBI agent (one of the extensively trained SWAT team members).

The Air Force pays for damage caused by aircraft crashes and doesn't send out spokesmen who shrug and say "S**t Happens." With few exceptions, LE (from the top down) doesn't apologize nor do they pay compensation. Aircraft crashes are accidents not planned operations. Maybe that's the distinction?

P. S. There is no tracking system for botched raids. Most are in poor neighborhoods against inarticulate people who expect to be victimized by everyone. Unless a newspaper or TV station gets ahold of the story, it just disappears.
 
F4GIB, there are tons of law suits filed every year. The only remarkable thing about Groh, was that the District court ruled in favor of Groh, and therefore set in motion a case that went to the Supreme Court. However the majority of suits filed against LEOs are bogus, but agencies and individual lawyers still must pay the lawyers to defend against those bogus suits. There are other cases where agents are sued, and either the agency or individual agents settle, or lose in the courts. But again, the vast majority of cases are BS, and courts recognize that and throw out the suit, or worse the agents and agency are forced to spend time and money on defending bogus suits. You know as well as I do that just because someone files suit does not mean their was actually harm done.

More realistically, the cases are like that of Kenyon Ballew who was guilty of federal crimes, barricaded his door when agents knocked and announced when serving a warrant, then pointed and fired a gun at ATF agents serving the warrant. The agents fired on Ballew and he was paralyzed. Care to know what the court said when Ballew tried to sue the ATF? "Federal agents acted reasonably and in exercise of due care in procuring the search warrant, in planning the search, and in actually carrying it out . . . Plaintiff, who heard law enforcement officers at the door, and rather than admitting them and submitting to search of his premises, attempted to barricade the door and prevent entry and pointed a loaded revolver at the agents as they entered was contributorlily negligent. Judgment for the government."
- Kenyon F. Ballew v. US, Civ. No. 72-283-H, District of Maryland

Ballew was committing crimes, agents were serving a valid warrant, and they were completely justified in their use of force when Ballew attempted to shoot them. Yet they had their lives turned upside down, the the agents and the government spent time and money defending this suit. That is the kind of crap that goes on. Bogus suits filed, and the agents are forced to spend their time on that crap, rather than doing their jobs of enforcing the law.

With regard to any flight not being a "planned operation" I'm starting to think your username is a fraud. I've got over 1500 hours of military flying time, and every flight no matter how short or routine was planned, and briefed prior to take off. That included my sorties flown out of Sheppard AFB.
 
The only remarkable thing about Groh, was that the District court ruled in favor of Groh, and therefore set in motion a case that went to the Supreme Court.
Actually, what is remarkable about Groh v. Ramirez is that the plaintiff had the where-with-all (money) to ride the case all the way to the Supreme Court. Got any idea at all how much cash that is??

When I wanted to pursue the BATFE for my incident, my attorney told my explicitly that the US Government had way more money, time, and lawyers than I did and I couldn't hope to win, even if I was right.
 
F4GIB posted
Aircraft crashes are accidents not planned operations.

DMF posted
With regard to any flight not being a "planned operation" ... .

All "flight" are planned operations. I know that (and IMHO you know that I know that). Unless one is talking about some kind of unusual test flight, no "aircraft crash" is planned. Certainly not in the usual sense of "planned." One can "plan" at the last moment to divert the aircraft in a safe direction before you eject but that's not the type of planning to which either of us is referring.

I wrote about apples, you replied about oranges.
 
Not apples and oranges, it's a good comparison. Hitting an apartment building after ejecting or dropping bombs on friendly Canadian troops in A-stan, rather than terrorists, is the equivalent of getting the wrong address. None of those were intentionally planned, and all are extremely rare.
 
Actually, what is remarkable about Groh v. Ramirez is that the plaintiff had the where-with-all (money) to ride the case all the way to the Supreme Court. Got any idea at all how much cash that is??
Not surprising at all, the lawyers knew they had a decent case and took it looking for the pay off. The Justice department made a decent argument that the Circuit Court and Supreme Court rejected. More often than not though, lawyers take cases and file suit even if it's not a viable case, because they are hoping that there will be a settlement because settling will cost less than a successful defense.

Now the only tort reform I think we need in this country is an easy mechanism to make the plaintiff's lawyers, not the plaintiff himself, liable for the costs of defending a suit successfully. If they made the lawyers pay then frivilous lawsuits would be reduced, because lawyers would be less willing to file longshot harrassment suits hoping to get a settlement from defendents who know it costs more to defend their position than settle.
 
To bring us back to topic.

I'm gathering from DMF and SENDEC and other LEOs on this board that it is extremely unlikely that LEOs would raid the wrong house. Still, this doesn't answer the question of what to do in the event that criminals posiing as LEOs are standing at our door at o'dark thirty.

Officers visit people in the middle of the night for a variety of reasons, many of which are perfectly non-confrontational. Example. My fiance was visited by a police officer at 2:30 in the morning two days ago (she's in college) regarding an act of vandalism on a homecoming project she had been working on. Some punks had destroyed the homecoming sign she was responsible for for her hall.

I am sure a couple of thugs could dream up a perfectly plausable reason for a police officer to visit a person in the middle of the night that would not necessitate a SWAT team or the whole resources of a department. And conducting business through a door, especially filing whatever reports a person needs to isn't particularly easy.

The problem is a thug can pose as a cop and use a variety of ruses to convince a person to crack the door.

How does a person know the fellow outside at o'dark thirty is a cop or isn't? Can we assume a man dressed as a cop who suddenly barges into the house is a thug, or do we have to assume he's a cop until he starts kicking our asses?

Me, I'm of the mind if it's a cop knocking on the door at o'dark thirty he's going to understand if I greet him with a 12 gauge handy until I verify he's for real. If the night time visitors are crooks they will leave the moment they see the gun. If they try something I can assume they are not cops and blast away.

As far as criminals pulling no-knocks. Well, any reaction I can manage in the four seconds or less it takes to get from my front door to my bedroom (apartment) will not be enough time for me to wake up. If a criminal pulls a no-knock my only hope is my neighbors are good enough to wake up and call the cops. If cops are pulling no-knocks, well they'll be asking how it is a my neighbors can sleep through the racket of my snoring.
 
F4GIB

What thousands of cases? What "no remedy?" Are you familiar with the Federal Tort Claims Act? Have you been privy to some of the settlements agencies have paid out? Do you know how much civil liability is addressed in police training, in everything from driving to use of force to cultural diversity?

Every once in a while there is a publicized mistake. They happen. No one is denying that. If we had the figures I am confident they would make up a tiny, tiny fraction of all warrants served.

Why does this horse get flogged so regularly? Hell, even the fire department and post office gets addresses wrong.
 
Mr. Kook, the scenarios you describe for late night contacts, which are not warrant service, do not give LEOs the authority to force entry. So feel free to call and verify legitimacy because you've got all the time in the world. Reference my earlier post about what warrant service will look like if you peek out the window - lots of cops securing the area, not 2-4 standing on the porch.
 
Thanks DMF. I think you just answered the original question of this thread. How to deal with thugs posing as LEOs.
 
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