When would you shoot a dog in self defense?

[hartzpad]

I know I've read one or two scenarios about self defense against dogs. I don't have a specific scenario, but I was wondering at what point you would shoot the dog that was attacking you. I'm sure it would depend upon the size and type of dog. You wouldn't want to shoot a dog that is just lunging at your while on a chain, nor would you want to shoot a dog that is only 10 pounds.

I feel that many dog encounters can be solved via some swift kicking. Kick the dog as hard as you can if it charges you. But if you have a large, mean dog that is charging at you, when do you shoot? Do you let it attack you and then shoot it?

For myself, I feel that I would probably not use my weapon in defense until I have tried kicking the dog, but that could be very dangerous because some dogs, once they get a bite will thrash around, tearing flesh, which would make it very difficult to draw your weapon. I have no problem killing a dog that is going to attack me, but I fear shooting someone's dog before it has actually bitten me.

Also, what are the legal ramifications if any in shooting a dog? There is discharging a firearm within city limits, possible animal abuse?

 

[sorny]

I love dogs and couldn't stand to hurt one on purpose, but when I see a really mean ass dog like a 150lb Rottweiler or something and it's hairs standing up and showing teeth, I would draw the weapon and keep aim. Then I would try to slowly walk away, always facing it, with a finger on the trigger. At the slightest jump I'd fire. If I was a little old woman I'd probably be more defensive, but I could probably handle it for a few seconds before getting seriously hurt (as long as it didn't go for my throat). I've thought about all this before because my in-law's neighbors have a huge rottweiler that is just plain mean and despises me for no reason. If he sees me he goes nuts trying to break his chain. I'd also plan to shoot more than once if he's close and coming at me. If he was 30ft away or more I'd shoot once and see what happened.

Legal stuff? I dunno. But as long as I wasn't trespassing on the property (ie: I was just standing around in my OWN yard) then I definately wouldn't worry about it). Where I live you can get away with just shooting a dog whether it's mean or not, big or small, for just walking on your property, so I wouldn't have a problem.

edit:

Also, about kicking the dog, I'd NEVER do that. Just going to piss them off more and besides even with little dogs, they're probably going to grab ahold of you when you kick out anyways if they're in attack mode. I've also found to NEVER EVER jump back from a dog. Even if I'm scared to death I try to act like I'm not and advance on him. That works a LOT. If you ever retreat, especially quickly, they've got you.

 

[fb]

Good question, Here all dogs must be on a leash, penned up, or at least under control of the owner. But as a avid bike rider I know the pitfalls of trusting everyone to abide by the law.
Shoot one, I dunno, I am no dog shooter, but I sure aint gone to git eat up either. You bet I carry when bike rideing, think I must say, Ill take just so much off a dog, then if you cant get away from him and you are on public property and all else fails-----.




If there are no dogs in heaven, then I aint much interested in goin.

 

[io333]

For me it would be a judgement call. I've been around dogs all my life, and understand them as well as (and in my opion better) anyone.


99.999% of the time, the dog would have to actually BITE first. That's because *all* dogs will, when they get a bee in their bonnet, put on the most ferocious display possible to let you know they don't like you there, for whatever reason. And then the vast majority of the time, simply backing down, slowly, is sufficient to prevent any further attack.


Additionally, I almost always carry Fox 5.3 pepper spray, which I have used against dogs four (!) times now in the last two years. (There are zillions of strays in my city, and they usually go after my own dog when I'm walking her, not at me). In every case, the spray stopped the dog, like turning off a light switch.


If the dog was coming at *me* personally, I would not try in any way to touch (e.g., kick) it. That would probably provoke a bite. On the other hand, when it's going after my dog (and I'm stupid enough not to have spray), I haven't had any trouble grabbing, punching or kicking it -- but then, like I said, I understand dogs, I know their moves, & I'm still pretty young and quick. Also in those instances, I've been pretty sure that the dog was owned by someone, and respectful of humans -- the type of dog that wouldn't dream of ever biting a person.


So in all, the situation would have to be very dire -- I would have already had to have a bite before I would draw. That being said, I'm probably letting it get further than many other people, especially police, would let a dog go. That's because I really *love* dogs.

I have been bitten badly, once before, some years ago: A dog bite is horrible, frightening and incapacitating if on the arm or hand. I know I'm taking some risk in not just drawing and shooting the way a lot of cops would.

But like I said, I love the silly things and know that almost all of the time they are just posturing. Also, I hope to get through this life without ever firing a CCW gun in defense.

Note, all of the above is in the situation of a *single* dog attack. If it's more than one dog, the situation is very different, and much more dangerous.


Now if someone could please explain to me why the little 3oz. Fox pepper spray is more difficult and uncomfortable to conceal than a full size automatic pistol?

 

[halvey]

As far as the legality, check your state laws. Here, if you fear great bodily harm, you can shoot a person. For a dog, there would be more leeway.

Depending on the city, they will probably take your gun, but you'll get it back. I live in a semi-rural area, so it'd be different. My dad asked this question to the sheriff where he lives and was told if a dog is on your property doing damage, and damage was defined very broadly (pooping, leaving paw marks on the lawn etc), you can shoot it. People have and there were no problems.

 

[io333]

One other thing:


What I most often use against an attacking dog, and what almost ALWAYS works, is to just start screaming: "BAD DOG BAD DOG NO BAD DOG NO!!!!!"

(Which is what they're yelling at me anyway).


It's always a p*ssing contest, especially with male dogs.



edit to add: thinking about past incidents I've been in, I'm realizing that my responses are very instinctual. Sometimes I *do* advance, screaming making scary gestures -- sometimes I back down. It's a combination of knowing dogs very very well, and hard wired instinctual responses from the animal part of my brain. So like I said in my first post, it's all very situational and I can't draw any bright lines about whether or not it's time to use lethal force.

 

[ken grant]

shoot dog

1911 Tuner has the right idea. Point the pistol at the dog and when the dog gets the gun in his mouth,pull the trigger.
There can be no doubt that you were attacted and justified in shooting.

 

[countertop]

Not sure. It depends on the dog and the situation. If I precieved the dog posed a series, life threatening, risk to myself I would. I'd also do it if I thought he was going to harm my son or wife.

I will say though that while mountain biking once a few years ago - near the end of a 20 mile ride - I came out of the woods and was passing a farm house when their dog came out of nowhere and decided to attach himself to my my foot and lower leg. I screamed, I kicked, I sprayed him with water - nothing worked until I finally found the strength to bunny hop on top of him.

When I got home, my landlady (I lived in her basement apartment) asked me what was wrong with my foot ( I was limping) and I told her. She knew the owners of the farm and called them. About 40 minutes later I heard a rifle fire. End of dog.

Turns out that the dog had a habitualy problem of attacking bikers and hikers and they had been warned by the police before. As a dog owner, I felt (and continue to feel) real bad about the situation but they didn't seem to harbor any ill will torwards. Mostly, I think it was the fault of the dogs owners for not leashing him up.

In any case, thats what happened.

 

[wdlsguy]

Now if someone could please explain to me why the little 3oz. Fox pepper spray is more difficult and uncomfortable to conceal than a full size automatic pistol?

Fox does sell a 2 oz cannister, but even it is over 4" tall.

I'm looking for something better than the Halt dog repellent I currently own. It's much harder to conceal than a P3AT. I'm really not into open carrying pepper spray.

The MSDS says Halt is 0.35% Capsaicin. Halt II is 1% Capsaicin. What % Capsaicin is the Fox pepper spray?

http://www.halt.com/halt.html

 

[HiWayMan]

When I was about 12, early 90s, my father and I were placing deer stands in a neighboring woods. At this time our neighborhood had a pack of feral dogs roaming around. Most of them were big bastards (Huskies, Collies, German Shepards, and a St. Bernard (Cujo anyone)). While in the woods they slid up on us and surrounded us. They were growling and acting very threatening, closing in steadily. All we were armed with was a claw hammer and a hachet. Dad threw the hatchet and hit his mark on what we considered the alpha. Luckily that broke their spirit and they hauled a$$ away. What we wouldn't have given for a gun that day. Now we carry anytime we are in the woods. You just can't be too careful.

Now I err on the side of caution when confronted with any large dog. I'm not scared of them, I own 2 Rotts, but I definately respect their strength and the amount of damage they can do in a short amount of time. If the situation looks threatening then start firing well past what is considered typical self defence range (21ft.) if you can. A determined dog is very fast and damn near impossible to hit when on the move.

BTW, didn't get any deer that year, but if we were into eating dogs we would have had a full freezer.

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

City PD I use to work for, we were in a foot chase one morning around 0200. Me and another officer hopping fences dodging clotheslines going after a prowler/burglar suspect
Who fled when he saw out patrol cars after a prowler call.

Another officer is trying to work his way around to head out bush bond off we are talking to him on the radio when we hear dogs barking, then BLAM, BLAM!!!

Officer shot and killed a medium size mutt still on the chain; dog came out of the doghouse full speed at him. He had no idea the dog was on a chain or how long it was.

Soon as the shots rang out, he was less than 50 yards from our bush bond and us; dude gave up and hit the ground.

Owner complained endlessly to the Chief.

Chief gave us an attaboy and OPS cleared the shooting.

 

[psyopspec]

For me this question has the same answer as "when would you shoot a person?" For me that would be when I percieve them to be a threat capable of killing or severely maiming me. I generally love dogs, but I won't wait to get bit by one (given the possibility of disease) before shooting. Some of the signs of a dog worth shooting, IMO:

Charging - Put hand on weapon when you notice it's not restrained by a leash. Draw when the charge starts, fire when it closes 20 feet. There's nothing scientific about it like the 21 foot rule, it's just the distance I feel comfortable with, morally and legally, to justifiably protect myself from danger. Since I generally don't feel threatened with death or serious bodily harm by smaller dogs, this wouldn't apply to them. A swift kick, or an impromptu impact weapon if there's time would be my most likely course of action. No hesitation to shoot on medium and larger dogs though.

-Foaming at the mouth, mange, or other sign of disease along with aggressive behavior-barking, baring teeth, etc. All of this happening close enough to me to be a danger. Applies to dogs of all sizes.

Generally, those are the only definitive circumstances under which I'd shoot. Barking and baring teeth alone might make me contact hand to pistol, maybe even draw if I can do so inconspicuously. But it would only turn into a shooting if they weren't backing off, and were showing signs that it was "serious" aggressive behavior. It's tough to expound on the "serious" part, but if you've been around dogs long enough you can learn the differences in body language between "back off, this is my territory," "wanna play," and "I fully intend to tear your bicep clean off."

 

[mountaindrew]

I think about it this way: If you have to stand up and try to out-growl, or do anything like that to scare a dog away to prevent bodily harm from an attack, there is a problem. How many other people, especialy children are going to do this? If a dog will atack if you run, then that dog will probably kill any child it encounters who is afraid of it. If a dog attacks me an any way, I would shoot it, and feel good about the children I have protected from a threat/dangerous animal that has no place living in my community.

Think about it. A human can be punished, even thrown in jail, just for threatening to hurt/kill you. Why should we let animals threaten to hurt/kill us and continue to let them live, whitch means continuing to threaten to hurt/kill others, who might not be as able to defend themselves.

I do not hate dogs. I just do not think a dangerous animal shoud be loose.
This does not mean siMply growling or barking. All dogs do this. Good dogs I know have never really theatened me or anyone else. I like dogs like those.

Just like humans, some dogs are just bad /deviant /disturbed/ insert adjective here..

 

[io333]

Let me get this straight about a correct police response, according to the above police poster:


Trespassing onto someone elses private property and shooting a restrained dog is accepted and highly approved police procedure.

 

[SLCDave]

For me this question has the same answer as "when would you shoot a person?" For me that would be when I percieve them to be a threat capable of killing or severely maiming me.

Except you can't (or shouldn't) expect a dog to act rationally. If an agressive dog comes after me or mine, I don't expect a dog to reason, and I interpret what I see as agression. I'm not going to fool around with a loose, agressive dog. If he comes after me, he'll come after someone else, too, and needs to be dealt with. If I'm able to deal with it, it might save some kid from getting mauled next week.

 

[spacemanspiff]

i used to carry pepper spray every day. i think i'll put another canister in my backpack now that i think about it. but anyways, i have had to spray at least 5 dogs. my confidence in pepper spray isnt 100%, but i do know it will buy a person some time to get away.

i was walking home one night, typically i have on my headphones, but this night in particular my cd player batteries had died. its winter, snows on the ground, so sounds are a bit muffled. i hear something coming up behind me, so i turn around.
a full grown pit bull (estimate at least 70 lbs) is running full bore towards me. my turning around made it reconsider for a moment and it instead skidded by me and started circling, waiting for me to turn my back. wasnt growling, barking, and i hadnt trespassed on its property, i was in the street. i pulled my spray canister out, and waited for the pit to get closer. when he was within 6 feet i gave him a full burst right in his muzzle.
he didnt whine, didnt give any indication it was painful, the pit sneezed a couple times, and was ready for another round. i gave another blast to its muzzle and started running.

another time a dog surprised me and was within 10 feet before i could do anything. i gave it a blast in the face and called animal control. i knew where the dogs owner lived, the dog has charged me several times, the owner didnt seem to care much, and would let it out of the yard routinely, in a neighborhood full of kids.

pepper spray might be a good deterrant, but it might not be the first thing i reach for.

last winter i stepped out my front door, and after i had locked the door, i turn around to a dog charging my front porch. it was being walked by some kids, they had a leash, but it wasnt attached to the dog. i'm yelling at the dog to get lost, and yelling at the kids to get their dog under control, but they would only try to call it from the street 30 feet away. it took a couple minutes for that dog to lose interest, and i was very close to shooting the dog. if the kids werent there, i probably would have. i recognized the dog as being the same one that has charged towards other people in the neighborhood, and the kids walking it also would let it crap in our walkway.
after that incident, the kids stopped walking the dog down our street.

bottom line, yes i would shoot a dog. i wont let it get close enough to bite as by then it will be too late. alaska does have a leash law, so any dog not on a leash that is aggressive is fair game. local police has even come out and said that much after an aggressive dog was shot and killed as it was harrassing an old woman last year. the police said on the local news "if you dont want your dog to die, keep it locked up!"

 

[DRZinn]

I would try to just back down, but if it were not on private property (ie a stray) I may feel obligated to ensure that he does not attack anyone else who may not know how to handle it.

 

[gunsmith]

SORNY!

with a finger on the trigger

Don't do that!
Never put your finger on the trigger untill ready to shoot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[carebear]

Let me get this straight about a correct police response, according to the above police poster:

Trespassing onto someone elses private property and shooting a restrained dog is accepted and highly approved police procedure.

If police are lawfully pursuing a suspect and cut through your yard they are by definition not "trespassing".

If in the process the officer is attacked by a dog which they reasonably believe to be unrestrained and a threat to them?

That falls under "tragic happenstance".

 

[grnzbra]

Fox does sell a 2 oz cannister, but even it is over 4" tall.

You guys get to carry 2oz? Here in PRNJ, that would be considered assault pepper spray. Only the cops can have it. We're limited to 0.75 oz; just enought to make your attacker really angry. I have a Fox 0.5oz canister. It fits very nicely in my hand or in a watch pocket. I don't have much confidence in it but it's all we can have here.

 

[para.2]

I have drawn down twice, on two different dogs, in the space of a week. Some years ago, when my son was 3 or 4, we were in a new neighborhood, with a nearby park, so we often walked there. On these occasions, he was riding on my shoulders, and once a large Chow, and once a large Pitbull, charged out of a yard, across the street and straight at me. On both occasions, I had my pistol out ,leveled, and was taking up slack when the owners, loudly cursing, called their dogs, and the dogs responded. I got some interesting looks, but no threats or comments from those owners. I did notice that after that week, every dog on the block was confined to the back yard. I also got some comments from some local toughs at the park after awhile. " Oh yeah, you're the white guy who lives on Walter!" with a kind of a sly grin.

If my son had been walking, instead of on my shoulders, both dogs would have been dead.

 

[wdlsguy]

I have a Fox 0.5oz canister. It fits very nicely in my hand or in a watch pocket. I don't have much confidence in it but it's all we can have here.

Is there a limit on the number of cannisters you can carry? I'm envisioning a bandolier full of cannisters worn across your chest.

 

[Shooter973]

Shoot a dog??

Yes I would shoot a dog in self defense, have done, and would do again!!! I've even shot a couple of dogs for chasing deer in the winter time. If you're a responsible dog owner you'll keep it under your control. Other wise you have no right to complain when the dog don't come home!!

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

Let me get this straight about a correct police response, according to the above police poster:

Io333,

Exigent Circumstance as defined by the USSC

EXIGENT CIRCUMSTANCES - Emergency conditions. 'Those circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to believe that entry (or other relevant prompt action) was necessary to prevent physical harm to the officers or other persons, the destruction of relevant evidence, the escape of a suspect, or some other consequence improperly frustrating legitimate law enforcement efforts’


Would you rather we have let the, prowler/potential burglar/unknown threat go, because oh I don’t need to run thru your yard at 2AM and have him turn out to be a guy who just entered a home killed the home owner and raped his daughter, or would you rather have me inconvenience you by “trespassing†(your words) and stopping the person/unknown threat.

The fact that an officer destroyed a dog while operating under these conditions is just the price of doing business. Just like if I had to kick open the door to say a storage shed on your property to apprehend the same above suspect because I saw him go inside and lock the door.

Both civilian and LE destroy dogs all the time. I’ve done it before and I assure you that I’ll have to do it again to insure my safety.

 

[B36]

Yes

If necessary to protect me or mine or an innocent child.