When would you shoot a dog in self defense?

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When i lived in the southern portion of this state in the early 1990's, there was quite a problem of packs of dogs roaming the countryside and harassing & killing livestock on farms. I killed a number of them while out hunting for other legit game.

On the domesticated side of this story, it would depend on the situation and the type of dog i was having to deal with. While at work this summer, there was an occasion were a guy came out of a van with two pit bulls. One took off after me and another co-worker, it was on a long leash [chain] and when it got to the end of its leash - it jerked the guy who was holding the chain right off his feet!

Lucky for us he kept a hold of the chain. But it clued me in just how fast and dangerous a large and determined dog could be!

12-34hom.
 
Here's what I wrote in a similar thread over on TFL

Argh..every once in a while one of these threads pop up, and I have to respond.
First some background: For the past 12 years I have trained German Shepherds for Schutzund Sport, and worked with trainers from all over the world, also worked with many K-9 officers, and trainers of personal protection dogs.

The problem is, most people (and I wouldn't expect them to) are not able to "read" a dog, meaning to infer its intentions based upon its actions. Due to my experience I can. And very often a dog that most people think is being aggressive, isn't. In particular, just because a dog is barking or even growling DOES NOT mean it has bad intentions. I have a 125 lb GSD that is very vocal, and loves people....He will run up to you and bark his fool head off...That's just how he communicates...He barks at ME all the time, when he wants something. Growling WITHOUT showing teeth is similar. If dog is growling AND raising its lips to show teeth, this is more serious. If ears laid back and tail is down, AND dog is growling, it is in a defensive/aggressive posture. BUT that does not mean it will attack, however, this is when you should worry.

OK, without getting long winded a couple things NOT to do:

DO NOT RUN (you didn't which is good)--this can trigger a "prey response" in many dogs and they will chase and possibly bite.

STAND YOUR GROUND--If its a "territorial" dispute, if you let the dog "win", it will now gain confidence, and continue to advance, where it might not before. And, yes, they can "smell fear", and will react to that (if you're afraid there must be a reason, so they will more likely consider you a threat).

DO NOT injure the dog, i.e. with a stick or pepper spray, you'll probably just piss it off, and THEN get bit when you might not have otherwise. This might work, it might not, but don't take the chance. Dogs, like many people WILL defend themselves, if attacked. Dogs threshold for pain is VERY high (based on experience with using electronic collars with some of my dogs...One of them worked through a electric shock generated by an $1800 German collar, that delivers a jolt similar to a taser.) I can also show you police (raid)reports where a dog absorbed multiple pistol hits(Pit Bull, 4 9mm hits, finally being put down by a shotgun at point-blank range). and kept coming.

Personally, I know
A) I can scare the crap outa even the "toughest" dog you're likely to find most places

B) I also know (from experience) how to fight a dog "hand-to-hand" so to speak

And C) most people DON'T know these things so don't try 'em at home!

Please, I'm not "defending" dogs, but know from experience that 99% of dog bites are in some way "provoked" (though not intentionally), and avoidable, so I try to educate people as much as possible. I know I'll get flamed, but what the heck.....And, yes, I've been bitten multiple times, and it was ALWAYS my fault, 'cause I did something I shouldn't have.
 
Radar1 I guess I dont understand your response. If you are on public property and are threatened by a medium to large dog you are under no responsibility to decipher the actual intent of the dog SHOOT IT! It is not your fault the dog is shot it it the owners fault! I have been bitten while running on a public road and it was not fun. A trip to the doctor and 3 weeks of antibiotics while the owner got a slap on the wrist and the dog still runs free. I ran with a pistol for some time after that and I am still uneasy running thru that neighborhood.

Mike
 
shooting anything has the same set of rules... and hopefully is the last resort. I ride bicycles for fun and sport, and to enjoy the wilds.... once I was enjoying my day threw a neighborhood...that was full of dogs...on the run...one dog loved to chase bikes.... and made it his chosen exercise. This perticular day, he saw me, at the right angle to cut me off, and possibly do harm. He attacked and I knew action was required...he came at a full run, showing his teath...and growling like he was mad.... when he got to within a few feet...I put the brakes on...and went into a full emergency stop...jumped of the bike... picked the bike up...and smacked him with it.... the shepard...tumbled like clothes in the dryer...and stuck his tail between his legs...and ran for home !!! bad dogs...are a reflection of their owners..would of smacked him/her too, if he/she would have chased me. Arc-Lite
 
There are too many nice dogs in the world to put up with the few truly vicious ones.

And I sure as heck won't put up with a problem dog on MY property.

I've only had to shoot one that was killing our cats, and I can say that 7.62*39 FMJ does a number on dogs ... ;)

Heard about some folks that were out walking in this "neighborhood" and were intimidated by some big dogs running loose. They probably weren't really in danger from them, but the 357 mag on my belt makes me feel a lot better when out walking (this is a very rural area - ten miles to nearest paved road).
 
from what I remember about the great state of Montana...is that loose dogs and cats...have to be worried about being eaten !!! Arc-Lite
 
As TallPine said, "there are too many nice dogs".
I can read a dog very well and I know how to "fight a dog".
The next person may not Know how or may not be capable.
I won't bypass a bad actor, just because I can, human or canine. As good citizens, I do not believe that any of us should.
There are just more legal options in dealing with the dog. The crack dealer/meth maker down the road kept pit bulls and a couple of rotties to protect his turf. I asked him nicely to restrain his dogs, he didn't they went.
He went a day later after someone fingered his drug operation.

Until they legalize kneecapping irresponsible and criminal dog owners, the poor dogs will ultimately have to pay. And that chuhuahua that is a bad sock ripper, can be a mighty fine carrier of rabies, just like a rat, skunk or fox.

Sam
 
Battlespace-
Our neighbor has a shepard who has nipped two kids. The first was my daughter, didn't break the skin. The dog was on a leash and she got too close, she was 10 and had been told not to go near the dog. They paid for the ER trip to have her leg checked. However I have told the owner the next time, no matter if the dog is tied, the dog is dead in his yard.

Er...

How does:

The first was my daughter, didn't break the skin.
The dog was on a leash and she got too close
she was 10 and had been told not to go near the dog.
They paid for the ER trip to have her leg checked.

equal:

However I have told the owner the next time, no matter if the dog is tied, the dog is dead in his yard.

:what:



Here's a modest proposal- try keeping an eye on your daughter's actions instead of threatening to kill your neighbor's leashed pet on it's own home turf.

My God.
 
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I live in Charlotte, N.C. In my complex, my neighbor has this small but menacing mutt that always barks and viciously at people. Sure, it's a small dog but it can do damage. One day, while coming home from the range, I had a few empy pistols on me and the lil' mutt jumped at me. I looked the woman in the eye and told her, that if she can't control her dog and if he ever bites me, I'm going to put one in his head.

I don't think that's being mean or nasty. I belive in protecting myself. What if that dog has rabies? That's not a chance that I'm willing to take. And as far as size, I don't care if it's a Pitbull or a miniture, if it attacks me--it's dead.

Over the past few months, down here in Charlotte, we've had a lot of Rotts and Pitbulls attacking people and kids. It's now a serious criminal offense if your dog attacks someone. Heck, if I'm in a situation and I'm fearful, I'm not going to hesitate and wait for the dog to attack/bite me before I do something. If I can get out of the situation, I will but if there's no escape for me: POW, POW, POW :evil:
 
THEFEDERALISTWEASLE said:
The fact that an officer destroyed a dog while operating under these conditions is just the price of doing business. Just like if I had to kick open the door to say a storage shed on your property to apprehend the same above suspect because I saw him go inside and lock the door.
Exactly, to punish a police officer for killing a dog that he/she thought was a threat would be criminal. While I love dogs dearly, they are just dogs.
 
I agree completely Domino. I love dogs, have two, but they are animals. While I would avoid shooting it if I could, I also would not hesitate if need be.

jojo
 
Here in NY state we have "buster's law" which(and I'm no expert) has to do with hurting animals.....unless you are prepared to go to court,you shoudn't shoot a dog...I'm prepared to go to court,as I would only shoot a dog as a last resort(much like shooting a person).I was bitten as a kid and am a little leary of unknown dogs..so I steer clear of them..but if I couldn't avoid one and it was attacking...I'd shoot...PETA be damned... :cool:
 
My neighbor had a pit bull until it turned on him. It got in my fenced backyard one day and was going after my dogs. I went back there and my dogs coward behind me. The dog charged at me or the dogs could not tell which. I yelled at him and one of my dogs tackled him before he reached us. I then charged him to divert the attention from my dog. My wife had called the neighbor by this point and he looked afraid to touch the dog. He got him out of the yard and that was that. If I had not known the dog from a puppy and known his attitude, I would have shot him when he first charged at me or at anytime he would have latched on to one of my dogs. As it worked out I did not have to. I am glad this is how it worked out because I love dogs. In my state there is a clause as to when you can shot a dog. You must feel that you or your pets are in danger. To me a pit bull charging at you with teeth showing and hair raised is a threat.
 
Yes but expect more grief then if he shot a person. Everytime an Officer shoots a dog it is front page news. IF an Officer shoots a perp. not ness. on the front page.
 
Here in NY state we have "buster's law" which(and I'm no expert) has to do with hurting animals.....unless you are prepared to go to court,you shoudn't shoot a dog
Geeeez ... :rolleyes: ... and in MT, outside of city limits, if a dog comes on your property you have every right to shoot it.

Livestock (cows, sheep, horses) is still KING out here, and any potential hazard to them is dealt with promptly. (well, except for those big furry dogs with the radio collars :cuss: )
 
perennial dog question

This question is asked over and over again, just like when can you LEGALLY shoot some one.

Take a deep breath.

Ask yourself how many times you have seen a dog bite someone? In just how many of those instances was there time for someone to draw and shoot the dog or even respond?

Now you appeciate that the question is only philosophical.

Let's take the question to the next level.

How many people practice kicking at an imaginary dog and then drawing and shooting? Or would it be drawing and then trying to kick the dog?

I will explain why I raise the last couple of questions.

There are a lot of police detectives and people with ccws who don't have a clue as to technique for drawing and engaging. They don't train. They never take a class.

I take a class. We have a guy who flew in from Miami. He was using a borrowed Glock with a borrowed inside the waist holster. Drawing from under a jacket. .35 second from signal to shooting dead center. I am older. .5 - .65 seconds. The average guy is untrained and would take a few seconds meaning like 3 or more seconds to respond.

By that time, a charging, attacking dog has already won. Oh, and by the way, when was the last time that a baddie kicked off a police dog?
 
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AFAIK in NY state if a dog wanders onto your property and it is legal to discharge a firearm...you have a dead dog. In the city, no dogs don't get shot for wandering around. In the country dogs will probably get shot wandering around. Especially when everyone has some sort of livestock.
 
bcochran...

"Take a deep breath.

Ask yourself how many times you have seen a dog bite someone?"

Several months ago. Our 100 pound German Shepard-Blue Tick Coon hound snapped twice in one weekend getting her mouth on but not breaking skin on a 4 yo grandchild and my 8 yo son, him on the face. That next Monday we had her put down. We are pretty sure her problem was age and pain from arthritus.

I was ten years old I was riding my bike when a German Shepard ran from a yard I was passing and bit me on the knee, then retreated. It happened and was over in something like 5 seconds. The dog had a history of being mistreated by kids on bikes so I did not take it personal.

I know how fast a dog can strike. I have no illusions that I could draw from concealment and shoot a dog that attacks without any warning if that dog is somehow within striking distance and otherwise peaceful.

Luckily I never developed a fear of dogs and even after the event above I was able to befriend a neighbor's shepard who had a bad reputation. The dog would come to me and we could play together. I am very much at ease with almost any dog and have no fear other than a healthy respect for what an animal can do.

My decision process for a dog would be pretty much the same as for a human being. Awareness of the situation, and proceed in a peaceful manner until actions dictate otherwise. All the while exhibiting what I hope is a calm, confident and capable presence.
 
A local man was having trouble with a neighbor's dog coming on his property. The dog apparently had attacked the mans young son, and did some chewing on him. Not sure of the time frame, but the beast encroached on his property again trying to get a dear hanging in his yard, and found himself dead. What happened.....Shooter may get a year in prison.

Very sad!
:(
 
Pitbulls will bite off your family jewels.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/9547250.htm?1c

Some dog owners will do anything to defend their animals. Even a bloodhound/sharpei mix.. which has to be the most wrinkled animal on earth.

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3415268

... but seriously...

Of course, I'd shoot a dog charging at me trying to hurt me or another person.
However, I'm not exactly "Captain Tactical" or Walter Solczech (character in the "big lebowski") walking around looking for something to shoot. I've had to put ailing dogs down using weapons, and shed more than a couple of tears in the process.
Anyone relishing the idea of taking a life needs a reality check.
But, sometimes the unpleasant things must be done.
 
I have. Four dogs to be exact. Feral dogs living on the outskirts of Bend OR. According to the Trooper that came to the scene, the dogs were killing livestock, attacking homeowners, raiding trashcans and generally raising heck. They cornered me while I was checking out an ice cave and eating a sandwich. The growling and snarling was a clue that there was going to be a problem. Shot all four dead. Cop took a report and called animal control. Used my LW Commander loaded with 230gr Hydra-Shoks.
The threat to one's safety isn't always human.

ZM
 
Geez. Agent Iron - where was that ???? :eek:

Up here, you can legally shoot any dog that comes on your property (except for the federally sponsored and protected lupus variety :fire: ). *

The dog doesn't even have to be doing anything dangerous or damaging. Just see dog and shoot.


* Does not apply inside city limits of course - can't discharge firearm :(
 
When I answer a call to a residence or location where there is a dog or dogs I will usually ask the person on the property if they would kindly secure the dogs, most of the time they will but on occasion I’ve gotten the response “what you worried about they won’t biteâ€, to which I usually respond, “I hope so, for your sake, but just to let you know since I have now asked you politely to secure the dogs, if they growl at me, if I feel they are about to bite me, or they do bite me I will shoot the animal without warning.

Folks would get up set but would normally take the hint.

Pepper spray may or may not work on dogs I’ve seen it have little effect on a pit bull, we ended up shooting that one in the hallway of an apartment complex because even the owner could not control it.
 
Tallpine

It is true you live in a good state, did some deer hunting out there, awesome! From the nature of the state, and the demeanor of the people, I am suprised you can not kill the neighbor's dog on his own propert. :)

The incedent in question, I believe occured inside the city limits in a pretty congested area of towns out side of Chicago. It was in IN, but basically a far eastern suburb of Chicago.

I live about 35 miles from it in the country. I feel comfortable killing anything I want that comes onto my property, but it is usually not a problem since I only have four neighboring homes in a one square mile area.

Take care
Jay
 
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