Where does the 30-06 fit in?

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If the velocities were equal maybe, but they're not....... According to Cartridges of the World 6th ed., the 276 Pedersen was tested with bullets ranging from 120 to 150 gr. The velocity for the 120gr was 2550 fps and the 150gr was 2360 fps. Not very impressive velocity numbers... According to the History of Modern U.S. Military Small Arms Ammunition, Vol. I the higher velocity 30/06 exhibited better armor penetration than the 276 Pedersen.

Everything I can see says that this is solely the result of excessively decreasing the pressure of the cartridge. Run at the same 60KPSI pressure as the .30-06, Quickload says it can do 2724 ft/s for a 150gr boat tail (I used an SMK just as a starting point) out of a 24" barrel Garand with IMR 3031, which was available. I don't have a way to test this, but Quickload is rarely wrong. Even if it's slightly optimistic, the number will be close to that.

If you're simply looking for velocity to penetrate steel armor, small bores will always excel compared to large bores. If you're looking for velocity AND tissue penetration, they'll excel more.
 
The development of ball powder (originally for the .30 carbine round) made it possible to duplicate the .30 Cal M2 ballistics with a case half an inch shorter. When you're buying cartridges by the billions, a half inch represents a huge savings in brass.

The initial development of the 7.62 Nato was with IMR 4895, which is a stick powder. It is very easy to duplicate 30 Cal M2 ballistics with IMR 4895 in the 7.62 Nato case. If anyone remembers, National Match M118 and M852 were all loaded with IMR 4895. The ball powder of the era was a double based powder, with a shelf life less than half that of IMR 4895, which is a single base powder. I have wondered why the Army went ball powder given that a stock pile of double based cartridges will need to be replaced twice as often as single base. From a cost viewpoint, unless ball powder is free, I don't see a cost advantage for double based ball powder over single based stick powder. Even if the ball powder was free, you have to take into account the cost of the case, primer, and the cost of manufacturing the round, as sunk costs, when you discard the round.

I do agree that using less brass represents a huge savings in cost. So will substituting steel for brass. Brass is a superior case material, and I think, the US was so rich after WW2, that using a cheaper material for cost reasons alone, was a decision that would not have been made.
 
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"Monkey with a nail gun" is going to be my new range insult for my construction buddies.

Slamfire,
Took a bit to check on old records but it appears that the U.S. stocks of .30 caliber were one billion rounds in 1919 and about half that by 1939. Frankford Arsenal was the only arsenal making ammunition during the 1930's and its production was sparse due to budget constraints.

"Of the large reserve of ammunition held by the United States in 1919, a small portion was used in training each year during the 1920s and 1930s, and the remaining rounds gradually deteriorated in storage. There was some new production by Frankford Arsenal, but the quantities were small, and by the spring of 1940 the national stockpile was only about half what it had been twenty years before. Reserves of .30-caliber, which far exceeded all other calibers in volume, dropped from about one billion rounds in 1919 to a little over half a billion early in 1940.4
From http://tothosewhoserved.org/usa/ts/usatso02/chapter09.html#fnr4
Footnote 4) The exact figure as of 31 December 1939 was 588,411,466 rounds, valued at $165951,466. Rpt on Ammo Stocks prepared by FS, Incl to Memo of F. W. F. Gleason for Olejar, 14 Jan 44, sub: Requested Report on Ammunition Stocks, OO 381.4/1889, copy in OHF."

Of other interest is the Army Ordnance Safety Manual on Munitions handling including smokeless powder dated Dec. 1941
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015063760741;view=1up;seq=1

And a U.S. Army publication in 2010

History of Ammunition Industrial Base

http://www.jmc.army.mil/Docs/History/Ammunition Industrial Base v2 - 2010 update.pdf
Regarding post WWI planning, “However, the General Staff and the Secretary of War failed to act upon
many of the board’s recommendations. Instead, the Ordnance Department (OD) followed War
Department orders to store and maintain far larger quantities of munitions than the Munitions
Board believed could reasonably be marked as primary reserve. This reserve affected scheduling
for the future manufacture of new ammunition.” p. 8 Cited OCH Vol II, 13

“Despite planning efforts, storage and maintenance of ammunition brought great
challenges between WWI and WWII. More money was earmarked for maintenance of the war
reserve than for any other purpose. Of the total sum, about 60% of the ammunition budget was
spent annually for ammunition preservation. To maintain a useable War Reserve, periodic
surveillance of stocks and careful testing of representative lots to detect incipient deterioration
was necessary. Ammunition lots that were unserviceable had to be renovated or replaced.” p. 9 citing OCH, Vol II, 10-18, 22-24.
 
Took a bit to check on old records but it appears that the U.S. stocks of .30 caliber were one billion rounds in 1919 and about half that by 1939. Frankford Arsenal was the only arsenal making ammunition during the 1930's and its production was sparse due to budget constraints.

Excellent post Boom Boom. Based on the continued decline in ammunition stocks, and one of these days we will find Ordnance Reports on the condition of the stockpiled ammunition, I am of the opinion that the given reason to stay with the 30-06 instead of going to the 276 Pedersen, based on ammunition stockpiles, was just an excuse to stay with the status quo. Certainly at the end of WW2, we had many more 30-06 rounds in stockpile than after WW1, but we finally made the transition.

When the US Army wanted to go with the M1 Carbine, they were able to do that in months. And that required new ammunition.
 
Just remember that the ones who make choices for the military are no less opinionated and uneducated than the members of gun forums.

They’re the same ones who decided civil war soldiers should fire only one shot during training
 
Just remember that the ones who make choices for the military are no less opinionated and uneducated than the members of gun forums.

Absolutely. One of the desired characteristics of military leaders is a "bite and hold" attitude. These guys expect to be put into a hopeless situation and they know they are going to either triumph, or be slaughtered, but in all instances, the organization expects them never to quit. This is part of the institution pathos.

Something that is common throughout all organizations is an absolute resistance to change, the larger the organization, the worse it is. The naive expect that they can diddle bop up to a massive Corporation with a disruptive technology, and be welcomed as a savior. Not so, they are more likely to end up as alligator food in the corporate pond. All large organizations have power centers run by egomaniac psychopaths, who like the characters in "Game of Thrones", have managed to back stab their way to the top. Core to that power center is some sort of a product or service. If the product goes away, so does all that power, money, position. Change is not welcome.

You can see this in the demise of Polaroid. Polaroid was an early leader in digital photography, had many of the early patents. But, digital technology was in its infancy, not a lot of cash flow early on, not a lot of power behind the idea. The real money, power, and position was held by the managers of film technology. Those guys absolutely stifled the digital technology groups in Polaroid, even though it meant the doom of the Corporation. These guys drank as much liquor at the Captain's bar as they could, before the Titanic went down. Might as well go in style, eh?

Organization inertia is real, even at the lower levels. I am absolutely certain the production engineers at Frankfort Arsenal were screaming about all the work involved in change over from 30-06 to 276 Pedersen. Change is anathema to a Production Engineer, just when they get the production line running well, you want change? Anyone suggesting change to the Production Engineers is also likely to end up in the alligator pond. And they would have been correct, they would have had to get off their duffs and do something. The status quo is just so easy, power centers built around the status quo, lots of advocacy for the status quo, you don't have to do anything but same old, same old. That's why, change is always in response to external stimuli. The Army would still be back with George Washington and the 69 caliber musket, if a troublesome character had not come up with the Minie ball.

Notice, in the Spanish American war, most of our troops were armed with single shot blackpowder rifles, against the Spanish who were armed with Mauser repeating rifles. The Army had many opportunities to buy magazine fed bolt action 45/70 rifles. The Navy armed itself with the Remington Lee 45/70 magazine fed bolt action in the 1880's, but Army did not want to change. The great battle of San Juan Hill, 760 Spanish soldiers armed with repeating Mausers faced 15,000 Americans, armed with Gatling guns, artillery, and single shot Trapdoors. (a few Krag's were around). The U.S. lost some 205 dead, 1,200 wounded; Spanish, some 215 dead, 376 wounded. Based on body count, the Spanish won. The American's were lucky the Spanish did not have the machine guns that Kitchener used against spear waving Africans in 1898.

Anyone remember the movie Zulu? The movie where the British had single shot rifles and massacred a massive amount of spear waving Zulu's? If the Spanish had machine guns at San Juan, they could have made a similiar movie, with their guys behind the barricades, and massive numbers of dead Americans out in front.
 
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The British commander that built the fort at Macinac Island built it in the lowest area of the island because it was easier to drag the logs down hill. The French landed on the other side of the island and set up on high ground looking directly down into the fort

Since that was a more gentlemanly time, they allowed the British to surrender without firing a shot.

Never overestimate the intelligence of those in command
 
Everything I can see says that this is solely the result of excessively decreasing the pressure of the cartridge. Run at the same 60KPSI pressure as the .30-06, Quickload says it can do 2724 ft/s for a 150gr boat tail (I used an SMK just as a starting point) out of a 24" barrel Garand with IMR 3031, which was available. I don't have a way to test this, but Quickload is rarely wrong. Even if it's slightly optimistic, the number will be close to that.

Well what it possibly could do and what it DID were two different things... As it was, the 276 Pedersen failed to penetrate as well as the 30/06 and was pretty slow....

Not really surprising though since one of the goals Pedersen was trying to acheive with the 276 was less recoil then the 30/06. They intended the 276 to be more of an intermediate cartridge that was easier to shoot than the more powerful 30/06... Another was greater enbloc capacity and the ability of the solder to carry more rounds... Sounds a little like the rational for the 5.56 doesn't it?
 
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The problem with the 5.56 of course is that instead of moving to a cartridge of superior ballistics in 6.5mm or 7mm, they moved to a varmint round. Had the communists fielded an army of woodchucks, we'd have been ready. As it was, the 5.56 sucked.
 
Let me put this out there.
In other threads I may have made it sound like I didn't like the 6.5CM but for MFG to survive
they must improvise & improve & sell you that idea like the 6.5CM being so great which it probably
is per the stats & I might try one someday.
But how can a MFG sell a new Model 700 with a 30-06 barrel & make it sound like the latest craze. Or
even make it sound interesting. [And I have one.]
But what if the MFG guaranteed it was capable of SUB 1" groups at 300 yards right out of the box, then
they could sell lots.
Even the 6.5CM isn't a new caliber it has been around quite a while but the MFG has resurrected it.
My advice is take the recoil like a man & try the 30-06.
Most of the time it isn't the caliber that makes the most difference it's the rifle, scope, load, & shooter.
Can't finish got to go.
 
Long time ago there was a saying by one of the gun writers; may have been Jack O'Connor....."Beware the man that has only one rifle. He probably knows how to use it."

Please notice he made no limitations on caliber. I have 2 30-06's and while I don't know "all" about them, they do all I ask of them. Works up close and far out (for me).
 
Beware the man that has only one rifle. He probably knows how to use it.

I’ve know many men with but one rifle, and many, many men with many rifles.

I have NEVER met a man with one rifle who knew how to use it as well as the men with many rifles. Riflemen tend to surround ourselves with our craft. Guys who would rather be golfing on a Saturday afternoon than shooting are much more typically the “one rifle” kind of guys.

So after a few decades in shooting sports, I’d say the contrary is more true - the man with one rifle typically has no clue how to use it.
 
This is all fascinating. I never figured I would read so much interesting stuff on how service cartridges/rifles do or do not get adopted.

That said, consider that in the civilian market manufacturers are mostly not concerned with the 1000 round target shooter. Instead, they need to sell volumes of rifles chambered in cartridges the typical target shooter (100 yards or so max) or hunter (shoots maybe a box of shells a year, mostly at 100 yards or less) will find attractive. I think this means widely available cartridges, preferably ones that have a track record and a following. Shooters and hunters tending toward conservatism also means that they take some cajoling to try something new (unless the military has adopted it). Thus the enduring popularity of 30-30, 30-06, .308, 45/70, etc. Along the way certain cartridges fall out of favor (35 Rem, unfortunately), often for reasons that escape me.

Personally, I realized that I needed something longer range than a 35 Rem or 44 mag rifle to hunt elk and mulies in wide open spaces. I wasn't hard to end up with a 30-06. I won't shoot it past 300 yards probably ever (frankly, I wonder how the 1000 yard guys can even see the target), but I shoot it a lot. It is easy to load it for everything from small game to elk. My small game load will do an inch at 100 yards. The deer load is a 198 grain lead slug with a big meplat and enough velocity to take big mulies at 150+ yards. With modern jacketed bullets 300 yards is not difficult to get better than minute of elk accuracy. I don't need the rifle to do anything else. I can also buy a box of shells almost anywhere ammo is sold.
 
The US could have fielded m-16’s in 6.5 grendal in 1944, end result would have been the same.

The top 2% of shooters can take of advantage of the difference between a 30-06 and a 264 win mag. The vast majority of rifle shooters shoot RN corlokt to decent effect inside 300 yards... where shooting ability still reigns king over ballistics.
 
The US could have fielded m-16’s in 6.5 grendal in 1944, end result would have been the same.

The top 2% of shooters can take of advantage of the difference between a 30-06 and a 264 win mag. The vast majority of rifle shooters shoot RN corlokt to decent effect inside 300 yards... where shooting ability still reigns king over ballistics.

The NRA was been created by military after the Civil War primarily to get civilians interested and practiced in accurate shooting. There were good military reasons for this, it takes years to create a good marksman. After WW1, the 1919 Superior board report, supposedly a lessons learned from WW1, provided recommendations for the tactical future of the Army. One very important recommendation was an emphasis on individual rifle marksmanship. This is what created the big National Matches at Camp Perry. The Army put time and money into this and gained a great following. So, the Army goes into WW2 with what had to be the best trained groups of Army, Marine, Navy, and civilian marksman it ever had, and in a few short years, maybe only one, those guys are dead or gone. At the beginning of WW2 the American Rifleman had a running column by William Shadel, about marksmanship and the war. These were typically the heroic stuff we all want to read, some accurate shooter plinking off a Nazi General or two, winning the battle. https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2014/4/3/throwback-thursday-snipers-in-sicily/ Somewhere around 1944, William was running out of stories. He records in a late article, Infantry Officers won't let their men shoot at anything over 300 yards, because they won't hit anything, and the Germans will retaliate with artillery. It turns out, the Superior Board missed that 80% (or so) of causalities were caused by artillery. By the time you get late in the war, guys don't have marksmanship skills, the ones that did, are dead. I heard on CSPAN that the Germans were running between 1000 and 2000 dead, per day, on the Russian front, someone can calculate how many Americans were dying, per day, but I do know, someone lasting for 9 months in a front line unit was an oddity. I read a book by an Officer who landed at D day, made it into Germany, but was wounded nine months later. Doctors came on by to visit him in the hospital, because they had never met anyone who had survived nine months in combat. !
 
So after a few decades in shooting sports, I’d say the contrary is more true - the man with one rifle typically has no clue how to use it.

Proposed replacement axiom: Beware the man who has only one rifle if he's next to you on the firing line. He probably hasn't touched the thing in a long time and is likely to muzzle-sweep you and everyone else at the range.
 
By the time you get late in the war, guys don't have marksmanship skills, the ones that did, are dead. I heard on CSPAN that the Germans were running between 1000 and 2000 dead, per day, on the Russian front, someone can calculate how many Americans were dying, per day, but I do know, someone lasting for 9 months in a front line unit was an oddity. I read a book by an Officer who landed at D day, made it into Germany, but was wounded nine months later. Doctors came on by to visit him in the hospital, because they had never met anyone who had survived nine months in combat. !

My Dad served in the US Army Infantry in the European Theater during WWII from D-day to VE-day... About half way through my Dad was the only one left alive in his squad of 20 some guys... About that same time the mail carrier was killed and they gave my Dad that job. He says that if he hadn't been made a mail carrier he probably never would have made it through alive... During that time he only got hit once, by a piece of shrapnel, but it was only minor so he just bandaged it up himself and didn't tell anyone... He is still alive today at 96.... He says he has led a blessed life... I'm very proud of him... Sorry for getting a little off topic but it seemed to fit in with Slamfire's post..
 
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My Dad served in the US Army Infantry in the European Theater during WWII from D-day to VE-day... About half way through my Dad was the only one left alive in his squad of 20 some guys... About that same time the mail carrier was killed and they gave my Dad that job. He says that if he hadn't been made a mail carrier he probably never would have made it through alive... During that time he only got got hit once, by a piece of shrapnel, but it was only minor so he just bandaged it up himself and didn't tell anyone... He is still alive today at 96.... He says he has led a blessed life... I'm very proud of him... Sorry for getting a little off topic..

You should and we should as a country be very proud of him and his compatriots.

Their sacrifices helped save democracy for several generations. Unfortunately, my grandfather did not survive WWII and died in the Pacific campaigns. Ironically, he is buried in a national cemetery within eyeshot of his great grandfather who died in the Civil War. They are buried on the same hillside.
 
The .30-06 is not just popular, it's a legend and an institution. Which means that logic and reasoning, facts and figures rarely factor into it. Fact is that any of several dozen cartridges can be an equally capable jack of all trades. Many more can do the same jobs better, be they smaller or larger. Fact is that this ain't 1920, we don't need to get by with one rifle for all game imaginable. Most folks are paying for their hunting and if you can afford to hunt bear, elk, mule deer or moose, you can afford a more appropriate rifle. If all you hunt is deer-sized game, any of a number of milder cartridges will kill them just as dead with less recoil. None of that matters to fans of the `06. They love it and will defend its honor to the bitter end. Which is fine too. :)
 
Proposed replacement axiom: Beware the man who has only one rifle if he's next to you on the firing line. He probably hasn't touched the thing in a long time and is likely to muzzle-sweep you and everyone else at the range.
 
I’ve know many men with but one rifle, and many, many men with many rifles.

I have NEVER met a man with one rifle who knew how to use it as well as the men with many rifles. Riflemen tend to surround ourselves with our craft. Guys who would rather be golfing on a Saturday afternoon than shooting are much more typically the “one rifle” kind of guys.

So after a few decades in shooting sports, I’d say the contrary is more true - the man with one rifle typically has no clue how to use it.
My grandfather had one rifle, one pistol, and one shotgun. A Benjamin pellet rifle, a S&W model 20, and a Winchester Model 50. Never saw him shoot the pistol. Probably why it looks unfired. But he was a ridiculous shot with that shotgun. And his pastime was shooting wasps and bumblebees out of the air and off his hummingbird feeder with that pellet gun. I’d beg him to take me out so I could watch him. Is that 1000 yard shooting? No. Is it marksmanship and knowing your weapon? You bet.

The 30-06 isn’t the best at anything. Nor should it ever be expected to be. The fabulous 6.5 isn’t either. Neither is the 300 WMS, 338 Lap, 375 JDJ, 50 BMG, or any other caliberfor that matter. But the ‘06 wouldn’t have lasted as long as it has if it was crap. It works. People have faith in its abilities. And rightfully so. That cartridge will be around, very popular, and still performing its required task long after we are gone.
 
Not having read the whole article, you do not understand the context of what was said. Suffice it to say only having one rifle, its own er has learned to use it in whatever situation.

So your alternate axiom may hold up for occasional shooters only. Same difference between Yamaha motorcycle riders and Harley riders....which one is a "biker"?
 
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