where to go w/45 Colt in Rifle

[Bartojc]

I'm looking to develop a load for my 45 Colt rifle. I'm going to let my inexperience show a bit and admit I'm not sure where to go.

A little background, the rifle is a Henry lever action w/20" barrel. Scoped with a Leupold 1.5-4x using Tally mounts. I have loaded 45 colt for my Blackhawk staying within mostly standard 45 Colt pressures. I have used MBC coated 250gr RNFP with success w/Unique. I've also used a couple different Berry's bullets, and even tried both MBC and Berry's w/W231. I'm not totally a newbie with 45 Colt.

Enter my dilemma. I was pretty sure I could use my pistol load and it would shoot acceptable. My load is MBC 250 gr RNFP and 7.8-8.0 Unique. That is not proving out. I sighted in the new scope on paper at 25 yards and moved to 50. Groups were poor at 50. I made up some more rounds with 8.3 and 8.6 to see if it made a difference in group consistency. Neither of the 3 loads were acceptable to me @50 yards with groups around 4-5", honestly I did not measure them they were so bad. I was not expecting to cover 5 shots with a quarter with the above but I was hoping to do better.

I am not sure if I should continue to try to find a way for this bullet to work ? If so up the charge a bit ant try 8.7 and 9.0 Unique? I've not seen that little bit of an adjustment make as much of a difference as I am looking for, but maybe. What else can be done ? I am crimping to the crimp groove, and no FCD. Crimping and seating are in the same step. All the same brass trimmed to length to ensure consistent crimps. Try a tighter crimp ? Is it possible this bullet just will not work in my rifle ?

I could try W231, but I've never heard of Unique NOT working for someone in 45 Colt.

Of course maybe its the shooter........ I did have another rifle with me at the range the same days and shot that with acceptable success.

-Jeff

 

[IlikeSA]

I'd get a box of factory rounds to shoot a few and see if you got the same results (pricy, I know). I took my AR out last week and my handloads shot worse than the Norma loads I brought with me to try side by side.

What's the twist rate on the rifling? I'd bump up to 9 grains and see how it goes, then try a different bullet, perhaps the 270 SAA. Maybe step down in grain weight too, to a 225 and see how that goes.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I'm looking to develop a load for my 45 Colt rifle. I'm going to let my inexperience show a bit and admit I'm not sure where to go.
[...]
I could try W231, but I've never heard of Unique NOT working for someone in 45 Colt.

Of course maybe its the shooter........ I did have another rifle with me at the range the same days and shot that with acceptable success.

-Jeff

Me either. But, you're already past the max recommended for Unique, according to the Lyman's 48th (rifle data shown):


I am really surprised you're not getting better results, too. There may be something about that bullet and the Henry's bore that don't mix well. [???]

To be honest, for .44WCF and .45Colt in a carbine, I prefer slower pistol/faster rifle powders: 2400, IMR 4227, No.9, No.11 or 4100... Those kinds of powders can take advantage of the longer barrel and stronger, sealed action than fast powders like W231 and Unique. But, like I say, 8.0gr. of Unique under a 250gr. RNFP cast is typically like magic in levergun.

 

[Bartojc]

To be honest, for .44WCF and .45Colt in a carbine, I prefer slower pistol/faster rifle powders: 2400, IMR 4227, No.9, No.11 or 4100... Those kinds of powders can take advantage of the longer barrel and stronger, sealed action than fast powders like W231 and Unique.

I was hoping to avoid adding another powder to inventory. Since the only thing I use Unique for is 45 Colt in a pistol, and I was hoping it would work good enough. I don't really have anything close to 2400 on the shelf. I don't mind adding one, but I'd like to know if it would work first.

*Edit* FWIW twist rate is listed at 1:16. I assume that is true. Henry recommends nothing heavier than 260 grains not sure why.


-Jeff

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I was hoping to avoid adding another powder to inventory. Since the only thing I use Unique for is 45 Colt in a pistol, and I was hoping it would work good enough. I don't really have anything close to 2400 on the shelf. I don't mind adding one, but I'd like to know if it would work first.

-Jeff

Yeah, that's kind of the hard spot, here. IMO, Unique ought to work well but it isn't with that bullet and the only two reasons I can think of are an undersized bullet or mismatch between the bullet hardness and the rifling twist rate. I've shot the MBC 250gr. in a Ruger Vaquero and it's a gem of a bullet but I've never tried it in a carbine so I cant' help there. Second suggestion: try another bullet.
https://quality-cast.com/pistol-bullets/?sort=alphaasc&page=2

 

[Goofball84]

Slug your barrel. You may need to cast your own if the bore is bigger than the MBCs.
Also try going the other way with your powder. Driving them faster does not always mean more accurate. You started near the top end and went over max and it didn't help. Also the added barrel length is already adding fps to your pistol load. So start dropping the powder. Maybe your combo will like the middle or lower end of the load.

 

[.45Coltguy]

Hmm. I have the same Henry. I also load the same bullet and powder with a medium crimp. OAL is 1.585". It is very accurate in my rifle. This is baffleing, as another poster mentioned, this[8.0gr Unique] is usually a very good combination in .45 Colt. What other powders do you have?

 

[edwardware]

If you have any jacketed or plated .452-454 bullets, give a few a try. If they're accurate, the barrel's not a complete pipe.

The lube might not be up to the longer (o RR to rough) rifle bore; slower might help, and heavier might help.

And given my be experience with cast rifle bullets, it's a crapshoot.

 

[.45Coltguy]

Slug your barrel. You may need to cast your own if the bore is bigger than the MBCs.
Also try going the other way with your powder. Driving them faster does not always mean more accurate. You started near the top end and went over max and it didn't help. Also the added barrel length is already adding fps to your pistol load. So start dropping the powder. Maybe your combo will like the middle or lower end of the load.

This is a good idea. 7.5gr Unique may work.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

*Edit* FWIW twist rate is listed at 1:16. I assume that is true. Henry recommends nothing heavier than 260 grains not sure why.

Centrifugal force. Heavier means longer and longer means more contact with the rifling along the driving bands of the bullet. With a 1:16 twist, a 275gr bullet is likely going to fail to stabilize and keyhole.

Your 250gr. MBC might already be over weight. Try MBC's Hi-Tek coated 200 gr. RNFP over 8.0gr. of Unique.

 

[EricBu]

I too use that use that exact same bullet with great success in my Henry X. I use TiteGroup or Cleanshot though, and load to keep it under 1000 fps (this is my 45 Colt suppressed load for rollin' coyotes). This gun has a Leupold Patrol on it (the Hog model). It's proven to be extremely accurate. I know your asking about your load.....but I gotta ask, you double/triple/quadruple check your scope install? I've got a dozen lever guns maybe, and own many more over my lifetime. I've got a bit of a thing for them. And I'll tell you right now, there ain't anything else on the planet that has a nack for rattlin' scope mounts loose than a repeater slinging big hunks of lead. I seem to recall my rail came loose, and I took it off, cleaned it out, cleaned some machine debris from the screw holes, then reassembled with locktite. In your case, I'm guessing you don't have a rail? But I'd check all the mounts, and also the newer Leupolds are a lot more sensitive to overtightening the rings than the old ones seemed to be, I am anal about using a torque wrench to make sure I don't exceed Leupold's torque specs. If you have any doubt, I'd pull the glass, shoot with opens from a vise or rest and see what she does. That will at least eliminate the optics as an issue. You won't cover the group with a quarter at 50 yards unless you're Keith reincarnate or something...but no reason not to expect it to be under 2 inches.

 

[Frulk]

The folks (myself included) that swear by 250-255 grain cast bullets and 8 grains +/- of Unique are legion. Before you get to deep into this with other bullets and powders have a friend that knows how to shoot give that load and gun a try. Inexpensive set of data to compare to your results.

AFTER you do that and if his/her/their/they/them results are the same PM me and I’ll send you some different bullets to try out free of charge. I’m flush with .45 Colt.

 

[EricBu]

The folks (myself included) that swear by 250-255 grain cast bullets and 8 grains +/- of Unique are legion. Before you get to deep into this with other bullets and powders have a friend that knows how to shoot give that load and gun a try. Inexpensive set of data to compare to your results.

AFTER you do that and if his/her/their/they/them results are the same PM me and I’ll send you some different bullets to try out free of charge. I’m flush with .45 Colt.

Now that's a deal. I'd be hosed though if it was offered to me......it requires a friend.

 

[Frulk]

Thinking off the top of my head (I can’t reference my personal load data right now) I have shot .44 Mag SWC at around 240 grains with Unique at or right at that charge weight and my Henry (open sights) did just fine.

 

[Bartojc]

Maybe it is the scope, or not a good cheek weld ?

I torqued to spec with a proper torque driver (wheeler fat wrench). Blue loc-tite and toqued the mount to the receiver and then just torqued the rings. I am having an issue getting a good cheek weld with the scope. I'm looking at ways to raise the comb of the stock to get more comfortable. My other 2 lever guns are open sights. Eyes aren't what they used to be.

I shot the rifle for the first time with open sites at 25 yards standing offhand and it seemed fine. I shot the same Unique 8 gr load in about a 2" circle offhand at 25 yards. I know I'm trying to shoot 50 but with the scope so it is a bit of apples/oranges comparison.

I might have to find a friend to try. Or try again and then see if I really need a friend

-Jeff

 

[EricBu]

Maybe it is the scope, or not a good cheek weld ?

I torqued to spec with a proper torque driver (wheeler fat wrench). Blue loc-tite and toqued the mount to the receiver and then just torqued the rings. I am having an issue getting a good cheek weld with the scope. I'm looking at ways to raise the comb of the stock to get more comfortable. My other 2 lever guns are open sights. Eyes aren't shat they used to be.

I shot the rifle for the first time with open sites at 25 yards standing offhand and it seemed fine. I shot the same Unique 8 gr load in about a 2" circle offhand at 25 yards. I know I'm trying to shoot 50 but with the scope so it is a bit of apples/oranges comparison.

I might have to find a friend to try. Or try again and then see if I really need a friend

-Jeff

Are you shooting standing at 50 yards? Because if you're standing and shooting offhand.....then I hate you for being upset by a 4 inch group. Assuming that's an honest 50 yards. BTW, bad cheek weld comes with the territory with a scoped lever gun. Their design inherently makes it difficult as they were built assuming the low profile open sites. You can get a add on pad to raise the stock up, replace the stock completely, or just live with it. I use a Tourbon riser pad, which also conveniently holds extra ammo. This one happens to give me a good weld, and lines my eyes up with the scope correctly.

 

[Bartojc]

Are you shooting standing at 50 yards

No, shooting at 50 during test loads was rested on bags.
Jeff

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I still need to bench test my Rossi 92 45 colt. I have shot 200,225 and 250 grain. Shooting off hand at propane bottles and hit them. I want to test it benched with the irons. I have 285 grain cast to test too. I have read that some loads need to be pushed harder at longer distances. I too like 8 grains of unique for 45 colt. The 285's i loaded with 6.5 grains. Hope you get yours where you want it Jeff.

 

[25-20 WCF]

Centrifugal force. Heavier means longer and longer means more contact with the rifling along the driving bands of the bullet. With a 1:16 twist, a 275gr bullet is likely going to fail to stabilize and keyhole….

You have it all backwards. A 1:16” twist is fast for a .45 LC barrel. My M94 has a 1:38” twist and stabilizes 250-280 grain bullets fine, the OP’s barrel will stabilize much heavier bullets. Even with the light loads he is using, bullet stability due to twist isn’t his problem.

…But, you're already past the max recommended for Unique, according to the Lyman's 48th…

The OP’s 8.2/Unique load is far from over-pressured…it is lower than what Lyman recommends for a weak vintage Colt SAA. The Henry is chambered in .44 Magnum after all, listed Ruger-only loads will be safe. Lyman lists 10.2/Unique with a 255 cast bullet as max. That may be too fast for the OP’s bullets, but he has plenty of room to safely increase his current charge to 9.0 grains if he wishes to try.

Has the OP tried any other loads in his rifle? Has he tried factory ammo (unicorn teeth)? Perhaps the problem is with the rifle, or his bench technique. Does he fire with a full magazine, or single loaded? Does he rest the forend or the receiver on the bags? Does he grip the forend when shooting? Certainly groove/bullet diameters matter and he’d be wise to slug his bore and measure his bullets, the latter may be different than what is marked on the box.




.

 

[Charlie98]

You have it all backwards. A 1:16” twist is fast for a .45 LC barrel. My M94 has a 1:38” twist and stabilizes 250-280 grain bullets fine,

My Marlin 1894 in .45 Colt was that terrible 1:38" twist... my standard 255grn Unique loads would not stabilize with that lazy twist. I was terribly disappointed. It shot patterns at 50yds. When I got my H&R HandiRifle in .45 Colt, I just started in with IMR4227, which worked swimmingly in my Marlin .41 rifle... and got much better results. I measured the twist in the H&R, and if memory serves, it's faster than 1:38", but I don't remember by how much. For fun, I shot some of my Unique loads in the H&R... and they did better than they did in the Marlin.

I would:

1) Slug the bore... to make sure you have the proper bullet size.
2) Move to a slower powder like IMR4227 or 2400. I know you mentioned you didn't want another powder on the shelf... but it will be worth it. Some alternates to that would be AA#7 or #9, or Ramshot Enforcer or, possibly, TrueBlue. I don't have first hand experience with the alternates... but if I couldn't find IMR4227, that's where I would go. I've not seen 2400 in a long while.
3) If you wanted to stay with Unique, it would have to be with lighter bullets... to get the velocity up where they will stabilize (assuming you have a proper bullet size.) 25-20 mentions going up with the Unique charge, which I've also done, too... but I now prefer just using the proper powder, and for me, that's IMR4227.



Just my .02 worth, based on my own experiences. YMMV.

 

[blackhawk44]

Another possibility. Often tube fed rifles react to being rest directly on sandbags. Try gripping the forearm with the off hand then resting that hand on the bags. Many guns show good improvement in grouping ability with this technique. It costs nothing to try.

 

[LaneP]

Agree with those suggesting trying other (slower) powders. Also check the little stuff like the condition of the muzzle crown and tightness of the mag tube. When I shoot my early 2000's vintage Win Trapper .45C, I like to rest it as close to the receiver as possible.

 

[Bartojc]

When shooting from bags I rest the forearm on the front bag back as close to the receiver as I can. My offhand is squeezing the bag under the stock for any minor adjustments that are needed. My technique could be flawed, but I've shot plenty of rifles this way with satisfactory results. I cannot ever remember shooting a lever gun from a bench though.

I think I need another range session with the same loads. I need to double/triple check my equipment. Paying special attention to technique shoot again and see what happens. If it still shoots poorly have a friend try. In the meantime I'll keep my eyes open for slower powders locally. I have a few other bullets to try as well... nothing I think I would shoot, but if they make a difference I would know its not me.

Thanks,

-Jeff

 

[Barbaroja]

If you haven’t slugged your bore yet, anything else is just taking shots in the dark. If you want to shoot cast Bullets it’s part of the deal.

 

[Tallinar]

I could try W231, but I've never heard of Unique NOT working for someone in 45 Colt.

For sure. Unique has more or less been the accepted gold standard for .45 Colt for a very long time. I would stick with it.

To be honest, for .44WCF and .45Colt in a carbine, I prefer slower pistol/faster rifle powders: 2400, IMR 4227, No.9, No.11 or 4100... Those kinds of powders can take advantage of the longer barrel and stronger, sealed action than fast powders like W231 and Unique. But, like I say, 8.0gr. of Unique under a 250gr. RNFP cast is typically like magic in levergun.

A few years ago, I was really determined to work up a 250 gr XTP load with 2400 for my H&R Classic Carbine (SB2 frame -- important!). I had a forum thread about it here. TL;DR - I carefully worked up a load to 20.5 grains, and was still somewhat unimpressed. I ultimately determined to just stick with Unique.

Try MBC's Hi-Tek coated 200 gr. RNFP over 8.0gr. of Unique.

I recently loaded up some of these same 200 gr bullets over 8.5 gr of Unique. I don't know if my crimp was too weak or what, but they were some of the smokiest rounds I have ever loaded in .45 Colt out of my 20" Henry. Plenty accurate though. Also, coming out of my 4 5/8" Vaquero, they were pleasant to shoot, but also gave a pretty nice fireball at the muzzle. YMMV, but I think I'll stick with 250-255 gr from now on.

The OP’s 8.2/Unique load is far from over-pressured…it is lower than what Lyman recommends for a weak vintage Colt SAA. The Henry is chambered in .44 Magnum after all, listed Ruger-only loads will be safe. Lyman lists 10.2/Unique with a 255 cast bullet as max. That may be too fast for the OP’s bullets, but he has plenty of room to safely increase his current charge to 9.0 grains if he wishes to try.

Yup, 8.2 gr of Unique under 250 gr lead is well under the danger zone for your Henry. Check out the TC Contender section of of Lyman 50th (quoted in the link I shared above). That will give you a better ballpark idea of what modern .45 Colt rifles can load. Most folks that load .45 Colt already know this, but bear in mind that most published load data for .45 Colt is designed to keep pressures well within the 14,000 PSI SAAMI spec. This is essentially to help discourage people from blowing up their grandfather's old SAA. However, when it comes to .45 Colt rifles manufactured in modern times, virtually all of them are more than capable of far exceeding this. Just be sure you take the time to do proper research on your particular rifle.

If I were in your shoes, I would load 5 rounds each of 8.5, 9.0, 9.5, and 10.0 grains. I would then shoot slow, patient, five round groups with each, watching for signs of pressure. If experience persists, I'd load a few more and have another experienced shooter have a go with them and confirm I wasn't the problem.

Personally, I've settled on three different loads for .45 Colt, and I don't plan to ever deviate. None of them are considered "hot", so I don't have to worry about making sure the wrong cartridge doesn't end up in the wrong gun.

255 gr LSWC, 9.0 gr Unique
-- Closely emulates performance of the original SAA black powder loading.

250 gr RNFP, 8.5 gr Unique
-- General target load. Accurate, easy to digest.

250 gr RNFP, 6.0 gr Red Dot
-- For when I run out of Unique!! Plenty accurate, and very clean burning.

Good luck, and have fun!