Which of my powders for the softest recoil in 9mm

[Walkalong]

In the end if you like, you like it, perceived recoil is all that matters.

Totally agree.

 

[Dudedog]

I suspect that either the recoil impulses are actually different values and the slower powder is not pushing the bullet as fast

Yes the slower powder is not accelerating the bullet as fast that is the difference we feel, however chrono says they are the appx the same vel at the muzzle allowing for a reasonable SD/ES between rounds..

It you measured it, the shape of the curve of the recoil impulse that you get with a fast powder and a slow powder have to be different due to the different acceleration of the bullet which is implied due to the different burn speed of the powders.
The total area under the curve may be the same but the shape of the curve is different.

You guys can believe what you want but the human body simply does not have the temporal resolution in its tactile senses to feel the difference between a fast powder and a slow powder that produce the same total recoil impulse with the same bullet in the same gun

No point in going around in circles, If it is undetectable by the human body we must be doing it with ESP, so we now have proof that ESP exists and some shooters are gifted with it.
You believe we can't, we think we can,
It's still sort of a free country so everyone is entitled to believe what they want.

perceived recoil is all that matters.

That's what I said to begin with, the slower powder feels softer to me, the faster powder feels softer to other people, it's a matter of "feel", and "feel" like taste is subjective.

meantime back to the Highroad......

 

[cornfused]

When I shot steel plates in competition, American Handgunner etc., I would work up several loads that were accurate at the power factor I needed (130) and then make repeated runs on 6 plate racks (timed). The load that produced the fastest runs was what I used in competition. Generally a medium weight bullet with a medium fast powder proved best. Lower times generally came from less "perceived" recoil.
My $.02.

 

[jmr40]

The one that allows you to use the least powder by weight. If you can find a powder that will generate the same speed with 5 gr of powder, it will generate slightly less recoil than using 8 gr of a different powder to achieve the same speed. But to be honest I doubt if the human body can feel that slight difference.

With rifles you do see this, especially when comparing different cartridges. I can shoot the same bullet weights in a 308 to exactly the same speed as in a 30-06, but burn 10-11 gr less powder in a 308. You'll notice that difference in recoil. Especially when I start burning 13-14 gr more powder in a 30-06 and get 100 fps more speed than 308.

 

[LiveLife]

Softest recoil in 9mm ... with accuracy to 25yrds. Don't really care how "dirty" a load might be ... 125gr Blue Bullet (coated, RN). Low recoil needs are due to my more recent physical limitations ... Glock 17, CZ75 & 1911

Of the powders you have, my vote is for Bullseye as it downloads well and popular with bullseye match shooters using lighter target loads and lighter recoil springs.

I use W231/HP-38 (recently replaced by Sport Pistol as it produces greater accuracy, meters better with less temperature sensitivity) as my reference 9mm powder. Promo is used with Red Dot load data by weight per Alliant for my plinking loads and for 124 gr weight, 3.6-3.8 gr produces mild recoil yet accurate practice load. 4.0-4.2 gr will produce moderate felt recoil approaching factory white box/target load felt recoil.

My current favorite 9mm load is with RMR 115 gr FMJ and 4.0-4.2 gr Promo with mild recoil but 3.9-4.0 gr with light recoil will work if you are looking for lightest powder charge that will cycle the slide. 4.5-4.7 gr will produce moderate recoil and slightly greater accuracy. Here's a listing of chrono numbers for my various 9mm test loads for reference - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...carbine-bullet-velocity.810127/#post-10358295

FWIW, I did comparison testing for low recoil and accuracy with 147 gr bullet using W231/HP-38 load as reference on this thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/9mm-147-gr-lead-bullet-powder-comparison.748940/

Test pistol was Glock 22 with KKM conversion barrel. Group size was measured center-to-center and subjective felt recoil was assigned a number from 0-10 from no recoil to worst recoil.

W231/HP-38 3.5 gr - 1.14" with mild recoil (5)
Promo 3.1-3.3 gr - 1.44" with light recoil (4)
Promo 3.3-3.5 gr - 1.10" with mild recoil (6)

Bullseye 2.7 gr - 1.46" with very light recoil (3)
Bullseye 2.9 gr - 1.30" with light recoil (4)
Bullseye 3.2 gr - 1.18" with light recoil (4)

Titegroup 3.1 gr - 1.64" with mild recoil (5)
Titegroup 3.3 gr - 1.26" with mild recoil (6)
Titegroup 3.5 gr - 1.04" with moderate recoil (7)

 

[splattergun]

My go-to range load for easy recoil, dependable accuracy and perfect shell toss is 4.4 gn W231 under a 124 gn pill.

 

[1MoreFord]

I voted Bullseye since I'me not familiar with all the powders. The least recoil will be the powder with the smallest powder charge.

 

[Archie]

In my experience, the slowest burning powder gives the least perceived recoil. However, it is possible to load such a powder to give a reasonable velocity and still not operate the action reliably.

The fastest burning powders are often the most economical and reliable, but tend to be 'snappy' in recoil.

I tend to load semi-automatic pistol 'practice' ammo as duplicates of the 'standard' loads used in the past. For the 9mm Luger, a 125 (ish) grain FMJ at about 1150 or so. Recoil (the last time I shot) wasn't particularly worse than any other.

 

[mcb]

Not buying it. I just worked up some 44 Magnum loads recently (documented in this thread: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/44-mag-revolver-carbine-load-suggestions.833625/page-2)

13.5 gr of IMR 800-X pushed a 240 gr XTP to an average velocity of 1336 fps

23.0 gr of Hodgdon H110 pushed the same bullet in the same revolver to an average velocity of 1319 fps

Despite the 800-x pushing the pullet 17 fps faster and being a significantly faster burning powder than the H110 the 800-X load was a significantly more pleasant load too shoot. Both from the recoil felt in the hands and from a muzzle blast felt on the ears and sinuses.

 

[wiiawiwb]

bds experimented with a 147gr bullet and found that Bullseye produced very light recoil.

It looks like most believe that a fast-burning powder produces the lightest recoil in a 125gr 9mm. Does the same logic about a fast-burning powder hold true with a heavier 147gr?

 

[mcb]

bds experimented with a 147gr bullet and found that Bullseye produced very light recoil.

It looks like most believe that a fast-burning powder produces the lightest recoil in a 125gr 9mm. Does the same logic about a fast-burning powder hold true with a heavier 147gr?

Working under the the premise that you have a particular velocity you want to push a particular bullet to, your lowest total recoil impulse for that bullet and velocity will be produced by the powder that can achieve that velocity safely (ie under peak allowable pressure) with the lightest charge of propellant. This is true for any projectile weight at any velocity.

/rambling

The Total Recoil Impulse is the change in momentum. Basically the mass of the bullet time the velocity is leaves the gun plus the mass of the propellant charge times the velocity it leaves the gun. The velocity the propellant leaves the gun at though is highly variable. The initial gases escaping, as the bullet first uncorks the barrel, are actually moving faster than the bullet. Obviously as pressure drops the last bit of gases leaving the barrel are going much slower. It is common to assume an average velocity for the gases by apply a correction factor to the bullet's velocity and use that. For most handguns that correction factor is usually assumed to be ~1.5. So total recoil impulse estimate is ( Mb + (Mp*1.5) )* Vb.

To get the actual correction factor for a particular load and gun would involve a ballistic pendulum or force measuring recoil rest and some high speed data acquisition gear.

Power Factor (as used by USPSA and other practical shooting sports) is basically the recoil impulse leaving out the effects the propellant has. And they use incorrect units to have a "nice" number.

The caveat here is if you have a ported barrel, muzzle brake, or compensatory then running a heavier charge of a slower powder to have more mass of gas to push through the ports/brake.comp can actually be better than the lightest possible charge. Though in a pistol many will argue that it feels better because you control muzzle rise better than actually reduce recoil impulse.

rambling/

 

[RecoilRob]

In 9mm a lot of the 'perceived recoil' is from the muzzle blast being that if you load two variations with fast and slow powders that just barely operate the mechanism their actual physical recoil will be very, very close to the same. The recoil operated guns need that certain amount to function.....so once you find that level anything that feels different between loads is a sensory change mostly due to muzzle blast IMHO. The heavier bullet 'works' on the action a bit longer so it's theoretically possible that it can function with a bit less total energy than the more brief impulse from the lighter bullet...but I think the differences would be difficult to measure.

A buddy likes to cast these little 100 grain bullets for his 9mm's while I use 147's from a Lyman mold that actually weight about 154 sized and lubed. Running in the same guns mine feel (to me anyhow) MUCH softer with 3.8 231 under them. I'm not sure of what he loads to make his little bullets function...but they POP a LOT louder, and the heavier bullets do seem to be more accurate with the increased bearing surface they offer.

 

[sbwaters]

My 9MM CZ75 loves Blue Bullets and Ramshot Silhouette near the higher end but short of Max. What can I say. I dn’t notice the recoil.

 

[ray15]

My 9MM CZ75 loves Blue Bullets and Ramshot Silhouette near the higher end but short of Max. What can I say. I dn’t notice the recoil.

Most of the powders I've tried are happiest at or near max loadings. The fast-burning stuff like Titegroup and Sport Pistol show more latitude in this respect, but I like even them at least half-way up the charge ladder. By the time burn rate gets slow enough for full power 9mm the velocities don't get consistent and the accuracy isn't there when I download to mid-range velocities, plus it makes a mess of the brass and guns. I work every load up from min to max, but it's usually the hottest load that displays a good Sd that ends up being the best one, and with many powders that make good velocity in 9mm the Sd keeps dropping the hotter the load gets.

 

[Walkalong]

Most of the powders I've tried are happiest at or near max loadings

I would argue many, but not most. I guess it depends on which and how many powders have been tried.

the Sd keeps dropping the hotter the load gets.

That is generally true in all calibers, but it doesn't automatically mean the accuracy gets better with it.

In 9MM a 124 Gr bullet over 4.0 Grs of N320 will be very accurate, soft shooting at 1050ish from a 5" barrel, and very clean. ES & SD numbers will be OK, but nothing special.

 

[ray15]

When I use fast powders in 9mm, I never know where low Sd (or accuracy) will occur. When I move to medium-speed powders, I know where it will occur. The three hottest loads, -0.2gr, -0.1, and max, and one of those three nearly always turns out best for accuracy. It's not a rule, it just doesn't surprise me at all when people note their 9mm loads run best warm when the powder is not rather fast.

 

[Toprudder]

You guys can believe what you want but the human body simply does not have the temporal resolution in its tactile senses to feel the difference between a fast powder and a slow powder that produce the same total recoil impulse with the same bullet in the same gun. I suspect that either the recoil impulses are actually different values and the slower powder is not pushing the bullet as fast thus your preference or the slow powder is producing a more favorable muzzle blast thus your perceived recoil is more favorable.

In the end if you like, you like it, perceived recoil is all that matters.

I believe there is a certain amount of truth to that.

One of my hobbies years ago was model airplanes, and we were going through a stage to try to reduce the noise of the planes as a way of saving flying sites. It was amazing to me that simply changing props could make them much quieter, but so many modelers equated rpms and noise to performance. I was able to prove to one individual that he was using the wrong prop on his plane, but I had to use a sound meter, tachometer, and radar gun to prove to him that he was wrong. Even then he was still skeptical.

Fast forward to just recently, I was working up loads for a 44 magnum, and two powders gave similar velocity, N-110 and H-110. You would swear that the H-110 loads were much hotter and higher velocity based on the muzzle flash and loud report, but the chrono told the truth. Once I was able to get past the noise and flash, I realized the recoil was about the same. Perception can be affected by more than one of the senses.

 

[Demi-human]

While much of shooting is Science and Mathematics, one must not underestimate the Art and Blackmagic side of the coin.

Our analog bodies may not be the most precise data collection systems, but collect they do.

Perception can be affected by more than one of the senses.

Blast be damned, H-One Ten smells the best!