which one the trade musket or the double barrel shotgun?

[Jackrabbit1957]

I think a guy has to kinda go with the times and figure out what works the best for him. I wonder if the brand of plastic sabots has something to do with the problems you describe. My shotgun wads are specifically made for modern powders and have shown no signs of heat stress when recovered. I think if they were made to withstand the pressure and heat from smokeless powders they should hold up just as well to black. So the question is are the plastic sabots out there made of a different plastic that is causing the issues you have described? I have not shot more than a couple of bullets in sabots so I have no experience to speak of.

 

[Ironhand54]

I am not so sure I would dismiss shooting waterfowl with a trade gun .

Sure pass shooting geese at 50 yards would be a challenge but there is no reason you can't use it over decoys or for jump shooting.

If I can kill a turkey at 30 yards I can kill a duck at the same distance.

IronHand

 

[midland man]

guys I failed to mention but maybe this will help with my decisions but I did last year bought a h&r huntsman 12g Bp shotgun but it's an inline more modern using 209 primers but is a cool concept but the reason I am looking at something more period correct as like I said I wanted something like our ancestors used and so with that I was wondering when in the time period did the percussion double barrels came into play??

 

[CraigC]

I went with the Dixie Indian Trade Musket kit. I need to start on it. It was more along the lines of 'how' I wanted to do it.

 

[mdauben]

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index...8/product_name/FK3370+INDIAN+TRADE+MUSKET+KIT I like this one but I also like this one! https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index...oli+Magnum+Double+Barrel+12+Guage+Shotgun+Kit so guys which one would you recommend and why? thanks! p.s. I like doing the finishing kits as well!

Of those two, I'd go with the SxS Shotgun. I love Trade Guns, but I just don't really like the look of that one.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

guys I failed to mention but maybe this will help with my decisions but I did last year bought a h&r huntsman 12g Bp shotgun but it's an inline more modern using 209 primers but is a cool concept but the reason I am looking at something more period correct as like I said I wanted something like our ancestors used and so with that I was wondering when in the time period did the percussion double barrels came into play??

I figure percussion doubles came in around 1840 ish. I like mine, also like my trade gun. It's all what you get used to. The trade gun requires more follow through. The cap gun is a lot like shooting a modern shotgun. Go with what lights your fire. The only way to know is to try one or the other or both.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

It also helps if the gun fits you. Check length of pull and drop at the heel. If it doesn't fit you it can be a frustrating experience. You should be able to pick out a spot on the wall or wherever, close your eyes, bring the gun to your shoulder, then open your eyes. If the gun fits you it should be aimed fairly close to what you picked as a target. Not the most scientific method but it works most of the time.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The other problem with plastic wads is that some brands will actually melt in the barrel with black powder or pyrodex. I made some BP shotshells using both propellants, for Cowboy Action Shooting, so they were target loads light on the powder..., and holy crap it was tough to get the plastic out. Like a power drill attached to the cleaning rod to spin the brush did NOT do the trick using normal Hoppe's solvent. Then I remembered that the original Hoppe's #9 solvent had benzene in it, and a chemist I knew years ago had given me "original" Hoppe's (he'd added benzene to it) as a prize in a shooting match. I found the old bottle on the back of a shelf, and voila, the added benzene did the trick...although I had an interesting time disposing of the rags when done, and had to clean the barrels outside in the shed. (benzene is carcinogenic). I'd opt for a more "traditional" method, either fiber wads from Midway USA or make paper cartridges for the shot.

LD

 

[Panzerschwein]

A good fowlingsman's piece, so loaded with ball or shot, can take any man or beast extant.

A good neat one, of say 20 balls to the pound, would make a most excellent companion for the trail. Of light weight and quick handling and simple construction, they have an immediate appeal.

Mr. Pedersoli makes a good trade gun. It calls for a fine pouch and horn, and most import a slew of pards to join in the day's hunt, to experience in merriment how "the old timers did it" as it were.

 

[paul harm]

Why don't you buy one from these guys and let us know what the quality is ? Fifth one down is a 20ga flint SxS for $600. All you have to do is drill the touch holes.
http://www.militaryheritage.com/

 

[Iggy]

I have heard that those are made in India and are not meant to be shooters. They don't drill them because of that.. You're on your own if you do.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I have heard that those are made in India and are not meant to be shooters. They don't drill them because of that.. You're on your own if you do

Actually, I know they are from that company sold mostly to Europe, and in most of those countries IF you have the touch hole drilled before arrival, there is a heavy fee..., IF you have the hole drilled after arrival, you then MUST submit the musket to an actual, certified, proofing house for black powder proofing, or you are in possession of an illegal firearm. There is a fee for that proofing as well.

Iggy is correct, though, here in the USA if you "convert" a non-firing replica to firing, then you are probably not going to be able to hold the company liable if something fails.

I was never pleased with the quality from Military Heritage muskets that I saw, but I do know people that shoot them. I have four smooth bores from Loyalist Arms LLC (which all came ready to fire live rounds) and I have their trade gun http://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com/tradeguns.html . They are a bit heavy compared to the Pedersoli trade gun, which I also have. The Pedersoli trade gun is best when completed as a kit, with swapping out Pedersoli's BS, steel trigger guard for something brass (imho), and replacing the craptastic ramrod.

LD

 

[midland man]

Actually, I know they are from that company sold mostly to Europe, and in most of those countries IF you have the touch hole drilled before arrival, there is a heavy fee..., IF you have the hole drilled after arrival, you then MUST submit the musket to an actual, certified, proofing house for black powder proofing, or you are in possession of an illegal firearm. There is a fee for that proofing as well.

Iggy is correct, though, here in the USA if you "convert" a non-firing replica to firing, then you are probably not going to be able to hold the company liable if something fails.

I was never pleased with the quality from Military Heritage muskets that I saw, but I do know people that shoot them. I have four smooth bores from Loyalist Arms LLC (which all came ready to fire live rounds) and I have their trade gun http://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com/tradeguns.html . They are a bit heavy compared to the Pedersoli trade gun, which I also have. The Pedersoli trade gun is best when completed as a kit, with swapping out Pedersoli's BS, steel trigger guard for something brass (imho), and replacing the craptastic ramrod.

LD

Loyalist Dave thanks for your advise and thoughts plus I almost pm you but didn't want to bother you but my question is while I do have this inline 12g bp shotgun the h&r huntsman and even tho I like it very much, do you think it would be worth my time and cost to buy the indian trade musket from DGW and your thoughts would it perform well and make the hunt more interesting I hope I am asking this in the right way? thanks! sorry not great with words sometimes lol!

 

[Iggy]

Indians shooting Buffalo on horse back liked the Trade Gun. Shooting one handed from a horse, it was light and throwed a mighty big ball.. Hit the old Buff in the boiler room from 6 or 8 feet and it was purty durned effective.
Easy to reload with smoothbore.. Pour the powder in, spit a ball in the barrel, bang the butt on the ground, little dab of powder in the pan. and you're back in business.

Stock is pretty slim behind the barrel. That's why you see many of the old Indian guns with rawhide repairs on the stock.

 

[Ironhand54]

my question is while I do have this inline 12g bp shotgun the h&r huntsman and even tho I like it very much, do you think it would be worth my time and cost to buy the indian trade musket from DGW and your thoughts would it perform well and make the hunt more interesting I hope I am asking this in the right way? thanks! sorry not great with words sometimes lol!

There really is no comparison. Your H&R is a inexpensive modern gun reworked to shoot BP. Sort of a Happy Gilmore solution. Playing golf with a hockey stick.

A trade gun is an original design refined by generations of shooters whose life depend on their gun . Much more enjoyable.

I personally think that the Dixie gun is a bit overpriced. There are, or used to be, a lot of BP smiths on the net offering finished trade guns for close to that price. Especially if you are willing to buy a gun "in the white", assembled but not finished. It would take some looking but might be worth your time.

IronHand

 

[midland man]

There really is no comparison. Your H&R is a inexpensive modern gun reworked to shoot BP. Sort of a Happy Gilmore solution. Playing golf with a hockey stick.

A trade gun is an original design refined by generations of shooters whose life depend on their gun . Much more enjoyable.

I personally think that the Dixie gun is a bit overpriced. There are, or used to be, a lot of BP smiths on the net offering finished trade guns for close to that price. Especially if you are willing to buy a gun "in the white", assembled but not finished. It would take some looking but might be worth your time.

IronHand

nice well I looked at jim chambers and he has kits but on those he says you have to drill and tap the holes for the screws and such so I only have a hand drill and was worried if I could do it without a drill press? but he has a left hand fowler that would fit me much better! lol I am a southpaw... but I am used to shooting right handed guns left handed!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

do you think it would be worth my time and cost to buy the indian trade musket from DGW and your thoughts would it perform well and make the hunt more interesting

Ah well, I can't answer that for you. I can tell you what I have experienced in the past, and if you think that's what you're looking for, then you can decide for yourself, eh?

I have three black powder shotguns..., not counting muskets. Two trade guns and a SxS, and they are all 20 gauge. The trade gun from India functions well, and shoots fine, but it's the heaviest of the three. It was the least expensive of the three, and being durable, I can bust around in the woods without worrying about diminishing its value or breaking it. I bought it for messing around and for living history. The Pedersoli "Indian Trade Musket" I bought used, and it's a mediocre copy of an actual trade gun. The lock was "acceptable" but the ramrod thimbles were improperly mounted...., so much for the myth of Pedersoli quality control. It also shoots well, and it's pretty light, so easy to carry and to swing on birds.

The SxS is a caplock, and a joy to hunt with, but it's also the most expensive of the three. It is choked in the left barrel giving me more range than the other two trade guns, which are cylinder bore...no choke at all. I've done a lot of upland bird and small game hunting with the SxS.

Now when it comes to the trade gun flinters, you do have to learn some tricks to the loading, since they are cylinder bore. Not complicated but enough for me to not mention them here due to space. Neither have a rear sight as the come, but..., that's an easy fix, and it's not permanent.

There is something very satisfying, taking game with a flinter, and mastering a flint smoothbore is even better. If you get a kit https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index..._name/FK3370+INDIAN+TRADE+MUSKET+KIT?view_all you save some buck$ and can make yours unique. Although mine was bought finished, it was used, and I removed the case hardening color on the lock, changed the barrel from blue to brown, and swapped out the trigger guard for something brass from the 18th century. While I have taken many deer with a flinter rifle, I need to do that this fall with the trade gun, perhaps if I'm blessed, it will be a deer with each of the trade guns that I own.

LD

 

[paul harm]

You'd more likely than not want a drill press. Ask Jim how much for him to drill the holes. My guess is the holes in the lock plate and if it's that you'd be better off with him doing it.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Harbor Freight sells a small bench top drill press for about a hundred bucks or less. Don't try to drill gun parts with a hand drill.

 

[midland man]

Harbor Freight sells a small bench top drill press for about a hundred bucks or less. Don't try to drill gun parts with a hand drill.

yeah that's the way I felt too!

 

[paul harm]

I'm not trying to be critical of you, but how much experience do you have , shall I say, as a machinist ? If you only have a hand drill I'm guessing not a whole lot. Some of these so called kits demand a little, to a lot of experience. My brother likes to mess with muzzleloaders. He needed a screw and went to are local BP gun dealer [ a good one who makes parts and engraves a little ] . He complained all the machine screws were too long - didn't know what to do. He was told all the machine screws are long, you cut them to the length you want. He gave it to me to fix a couple of things. I had to remount the thimbles. It's hard to drill holes straight down with a pre inleted stock. The drill wants to slide down the curved stock. You either get lucky by hand or find a way to put it in a vise properly and make the drill, drill where you want it to. I was lucky in that the first gun I built from scratch, a neighbor machinist whom I worked with [ I was a factory electrician and took care of the toolroom ] and built muzzle loading guns, showed me the way. You know you're doing it right when only you can see your mistakes. Ask a lot of questions from the dealer you're buying from and ask how much experience you should have for that kit. Good luck what ever you decide.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well, remember that a lot of guns were made once...., without power tools.
When it comes to pinning a barrel OR pinning ramrod thimbles, or a trigger guard for that matter, you can use Gimlets https://www.garrettwade.com/set-of-seven-steel-twist-gimlets-gp.html if you don't have a drill press, or if you were handed a kit..., pre-shaped with no holes marked or dilled. OR you can use a jig. https://www.jedediah-starr.com/closeup.asp?cid=90&pid=2379&offset=0 IF you have a round musket barrel, then you used the thin flats of the edge of the stock where it meets the barrel to gauge your angle at 90 degrees, or you use the flat of the barrel on an octagon barrel to judge 90 degrees, when using gimlets. When you're drilling the wood, you stop at contact with the barrel tenon. You remove the barrel and then complete the hole for one side. Then continue the process through to the other side being very very careful you don't "break out" wood on the stock surface. The minute you have an indication the tip of the gimlet is at the surface of the stock on the other side, you remove the gimlet, and come at the hole from that opposite side. Replace the barrel and with some marking media on the tip of a pin, tap the pin until it touches and marks the barrel tenon, so you now have a mark where you need to drill the tenon. Tedious, but doable.

LD

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I've always used a homemade spike tool. You mark both sides of the wood, make a dimple just big enough to set on the spike, then center up under the drill press. Drill half way thru. Repeat from the other side. Hole comes out where you want it, fuss, no misalignment.

 

[paul harm]

Ah, there's many ways of doing it. Many of us have learned different methods, but if you're not use to doing this type of work it can be frustrating sometimes. I was just trying to point out some problems and something to think about if you haven't done it before. We think it's easy to measure down the proper distance and mark for pinning the barrel, but it's not for some. My brother, bless his soul, wanted a shorter machine screw to hold the lock in place. He said the one they gave him was too long and he couldn't find one the right length. I told him " you have to cut it the correct length - that's why it's long, they're not sure what you need." Everyone is different and it can get expensive real fast.