Who carries a gun to church?

[Sam Adams]

Victory

"You think you christians are hated and targeted? I wouldn't think twice about carrying to synogouge.

Trust me, the only thing better in the minds of these terrorists than killing americans is killing jewish ones."

I am Jewish, and I ALWAYS carry my .45 with me to services. You are 100% correct that killing lots of Jews is Job 1 for most of the terrorist arsewholes out there, and it is well known that on any given Saturday a bunch of us will be in a synogogue - one need not be a rocket scientist to figure this one out. Thankfully, I am not the only one, as we have several others who also carry, including an ex-Israeli special forces vet and the Rabbi (though he won't carry on Saturdays or other holidays when carrying things is considered to be "work" and thus forbidden, but note that if there is a threat to life one can break this rule). I, personally, consider that merely being a Jew in this day and age involves having your life at risk, so I don't hesitate to carry - and doing so on Saturdays and holidays is especially critical since some others won't do this, leaving us under-gunned.

We do have police outside the synogogue on many occasions, but not all, but in any case I don't like to rely on others for my protection or that of my wife and kids. Anyhow, determined terrorists that want to kill several dozen or more Jews will surely have the means of dealing with 2 police officers first. I guarantee that they won't accomplish their goal for free.

 

[MaterDei]

Sometimes but I should always. Therefore I'll vote always.

I don't see why the need to protect oneself and one's loved ones would be any different at church than anywhere else.

 

[countertop]

I don't carry there as Virginia law doesn't allow concealed carry at Church. Since we have a number of high ranking Government types who attend my church, open carry there will not only piss my wife off but needlessly excite the numerous secret service agents in attendance - something I would rather not do.

 

[sm]

Concealed means concealed...

AR law says no CCW in Church.

I haven't attended in quite awhile, honestly have not made plans to visit again even tho my name is on a member's list...

There is that bit about "To Thine Own Self Be True". Lets just say the last funeral I attended in a Church, I was true to myself.

 

[DesertEagle613]

Sam Adams—

Thankfully, I am not the only one, as we have several others who also carry, including an ex-Israeli special forces vet and the Rabbi (though he won't carry on Saturdays or other holidays when carrying things is considered to be "work" and thus forbidden, but note that if there is a threat to life one can break this rule).

Why doesn't your rabbi store a gun in the synagogue? (Assuming this can be done safely.) It avoids the issue of carrying, and R' Goren, former chief rabbi of the IDF, made a ruling that guns can be handled on Shabbat and holidays despite the issue of "muktzah" because their purpose is to save life.

By that ruling, your rabbi should be able to CCW on holidays anyway, because carrying is not a problem.

Just a thought

 

[B36]

Always

Usually two, sometimes three.

 

[Sam Adams]

Desert Eagle 613

"Why doesn't your rabbi store a gun in the synagogue? (Assuming this can be done safely.) It avoids the issue of carrying, and R' Goren, former chief rabbi of the IDF, made a ruling that guns can be handled on Shabbat and holidays despite the issue of "muktzah" because their purpose is to save life.

By that ruling, your rabbi should be able to CCW on holidays anyway, because carrying is not a problem."

I'll mention the storage bit to him. He's got a lockable office, and I'm sure that it wouldn't be a big deal to get a small, lockable metal case to put in a drawer somewhere that kids couldn't get into even if they opened the drawer.

I'm sure that he's aware of Goren's ruling; I think that he's concerned with not printing in front of hundreds of people, as some of the flock are of the belief that guns are all possessed by demons, along with those who carry them. In any case, I will discuss it with him; it is high time to go out shooting with him again, esp. now that his 15-round Glock magazine with "LEO Only" stamped on it is now legal.

 

[MrAcheson]

I don't have a CCL so I don't carry in general. Once I get it, I may or may not. While I don't have a problem with carry in general, I do not want my guns to become an idol to me or an extension of making an idol out of myself. At some point I have to trust in the Lord for my safety.

I think those that are carrying in church despite laws to the contrary should have a good read about the nature of earthly authority in Romans (unapplicable to non-messianic Jews of course). Suffice it to say that unless God is telling you otherwise, you are supposed to respect the law and the lawgivers as God's agents on earth. I'd need to be really sure before I broke the law in this way, otherwise I really would be making an idol out of something. But hey I had a friend who pirated bible software so some people might not share this view...

 

[crucible]

I don't carry there as Virginia law doesn't allow concealed carry at Church. Since we have a number of high ranking Government types who attend my church,

Countertop, Virginia law specifically states it is unlawful unless there is "good and sufficient reason", not outright barring (and there's more than a few government-types at my church as well-which may be your church too.) Good and sufficient reason is the protection of my family and my church family against the evil that walks this earth should they ever pay us a visit there.

You're call certainly, but you do have options-even if they are legally ambiguious. And the protection of your family isn't going to in the interest of those Secret Security types-their mission is different in that respect. (That said, I'm fairly certain we attend the same church).

Chris

 

[countertop]

Virginia law specifically states it is unlawful unless there is "good and sufficient reason", not outright barring . . . . . . Good and sufficient reason is the protection of my family and my church family against the evil that walks this earth should they ever pay us a visit there.

I'll have to think about that. When I took the concealed carry class at the NRA the instructor told us, in no unertain terms, no church carry. I wonder if there is any court cases elaborating on the issue? Or maybe we can get Gen. Kilgore to issue an opinion on it.

And the protection of your family isn't going to in the interest of those Secret Security types-their mission is different in that respect. (That said, I'm fairly certain we attend the same church).

That is certainly true.

I go to church in McLean, and you??

 

[mountaindrew]

MO law prohihibits carry in church, unless you have the permission of your pastor. When I was attending a church in a rather shady neighborhood, my pastor asked me to sit near the door to keep an eye on some of the transient types that would sometimes come in. He never addressed carrying in church, but the conversations we had about guns, he was very supporting of our responsibility to protect ourselves and others. I know he would have backed me up if I carried ( whitch I did a few times) and had to use it to defend out congregation. (which I didn't)

 

[cordex]

Did so ... pardon the pun ... religiously for a long time. Haven't recently. Not for the best reason, but my choices are limited.

 

[glock27]

MI law prohibits carry in a church - unless you have permission of the church, which I can get easily - as I also make the church deposits, and after a big offering, the lead minister has asked me if I have my gun with me.

My problem is MI law, also prohibits carrying in a day care - with no wording about if it is open or closed for business. We have a day care in the church M-F.

Its always in the car, in the parking lot, which is exempt from the restrictions.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

At some point I have to trust in the Lord for my safety.

Reminds me of a joke/parable:

The Big Flood
A terrible flood had come over the land. The waters rose so high that one man was forced to climb onto the roof of his house.

A man in a rowboat appeared, and told him to get in.

"No," replied the man on the roof. "I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me." So the man in the rowboat went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.

The waters rose higher and higher, and suddenly a speedboat appeared. "Climb in!" shouted a man in the boat. "No," replied the man on the roof. "I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me." So the man in the speedboat went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.

The waters continued to rise. A helicopter appeared and over the loudspeaker, the pilot announced he would lower a rope to the man on the roof. "No," replied the man on the roof. "I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me." So the helicopter went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.

Eventually the waters rose so high that the man on the roof was washed away, and the man drowned.

Upon arriving in heaven, the man marched straight over to God. "Heavenly Father," he said, "I had faith in you, I prayed to you to save me, and yet you did nothing. Why?"

God gave him a puzzled look, and replied, "I sent you two boats and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"​

God, it is said, helps those who help themselves.

 

[crucible]

Yes, that's the one (hiya homie!)-and ours is a high profile church, with a high profile pastor, in a high profile area, with little security.

That said, I love my family, and their defense is up to me regardless of whever we may be. It is also my belief that since God has seen fit to equip me physically and mentally able to do so, and that God calls us to love our neighbor as ourselves as the second most important thing we do as Christians, that I am called to carry that love to my church family as well.

I pray it's never necessary, but I will not allow my loved ones to be defenseless in the face of evil.

Chris

 

[spacemanspiff]

I carry in my pruse for church since there is no way I could hide a gun in most of my church clothes cause in my class we give hugs and I'm a girl so we give/get even more hugs.

i always hear something along those lines, guess the church i went to just wasnt that loving, to me anyways.

though i'd like to see the reaction of someone who puts their arm around me and finds my kimber.

stewie: "its a tuna sandwich! and nothing else...."

 

[BerettaNut92]

John 15:13

 

[aerod1]

In Texas it is legal to carry your CHL weapon in Church. Therefore my priest has never seen me unarmed. He doesn't realize this because it is "concealed".
I know I am not alone, for there are at least three others in our parish who also carry in church.

Jim

 

[DigMe]

God, it is said, helps those who help themselves.

I don't think a quote that originated in greek mythology and is not found in the Bible is really fitting for this thread.

Psalms 27:14 Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD.

I"m not really arguing against your point, Matt. I do believe in utilizing the things that God has given us here on earth but "God helps those who help themselves" is not scriptural. Also, I'm not saying that you claimed it is from the Bible...just clarifying because a lot of people do quote that as if it's from the Bible.

brad cook

 

[Sam Adams]

"...but "G-d helps those who help themselves" is not scriptural."

Perhaps the exact phrase isn't found in any translation of the Bible (Jewish or Christian), but the thought is certainly there in the Jewish Bible (what Christians call "The Old Testament"). We can't just wait around for G-d to perform miracles for us, we need to do whatever is humanly possible to help ourselves - and then, if we are sufficiently deserving, G-d will grant us a miracle if we still need it. A perfect example of this is the splitting of the Red Sea. This event wasn't at all like the 1957 Charleton Heston movie. I know that this isn't a board or a thread that is oriented toward religion, but to understand what I mean you need to know the following:

According to Rabbi Yehuda, none of the tribes wanted to enter the sea first. Each one was waiting for the other. Finally, Nachshon ben Aminadav of Judah jumped into the sea. Seeing him, the entire tribe of Judah followed. Then the rest of the tribes entered the sea.

Jumping into the sea, Nachshon cried out, "Save me, 0 God, for the waters are threatening my life." (Psalms 69:2)

As a result of Nachshon's great faith, leadership was given to the tribe of Judah. Regarding this, it is written, "When Israel went out of Egypt, Jacob's family from a strange-speaking people, Judah became his holy one, Israel his domain." (Psalms 114:1, 2) When the Israelites left Egypt and stood on the shore of the Red Sea, they did not have faith that the sea would split; they were afraid to enter the sea. The leader of Judah then sanctified God's name by literally jumping into the sea, and as a result he was worthy of fathering the royal line, making Israel his domain.

http://www.jewishgates.com/file.asp?File_ID=1018

In other words, had Nachshon not jumped in to the Red Sea (Sea of Reeds?) in order to demonstrate his great faith in G-d and to try to escape the Egyptians with all of his human resources, then there would have been no miracle.

Matt Payne's joke gives us the same lesson, albeit in a more enjoyable format.

How does this relate to carrying in a house of worship? Simple: You shouldn't rely on G-d to protect you from all of the evils in the world, at least not until you have taken every step possible to protect yourself from those evils. In my mind, one of those steps in this era (speaking technologically, socially and politically) is carrying a firearm.

 

[The Rabbi]

When I am out of my house I am carrying. So when I go to shul in the week I am carrying as well. Of course concealed and I suppose no one knows better.
Carrying on Yom Tov is a big problem of muktzeh and I don't do it. Shabbos even more so. If there were an actual threat (not, "people are out to get Jews") then I would carry, even on Shabbos. When the riots hit LA a few years ago I know there were many in the Orthodox community who showed up packing. I have no problem with that.
One funny note: one of the guys in the congregation sells advertising for one of the gun show producers. He always carries a Smith Airweight in his talis bag. On Yom Kippur the shul holds services at the Loews Hotel here so people can stay over. He did and of course carried his pistol. Unfortunately Pres. Bush was scheduled to stay there the next day so there were hundreds of Secret Service agents milling around. I think one of them figuring out you had a gun would make for a bad Yom Kippur.

 

[DigMe]

Sam,

I don't see your example as the Lord helping those who help themselves. I see that as an example of the Lord helping those who put their faith in and rely on Him...those who call on his name. They didn't jump into the sea and then swim for it..they jumped in the sea and then called on God to save them. That's faith.

The Bible talks over and over and over about waiting on the Lord. I can post scripture after scripture here if you really want me to but it seems unnecessary.

How does this relate to carrying in a house of worship? Simple: You shouldn't rely on G-d to protect you from all of the evils in the world, at least not until you have taken every step possible to protect yourself from those evils. In my mind, one of those steps in this era (speaking technologically, socially and politically) is carrying a firearm.

I think I made it quite clear in my original post that I understand and agree with that. God has given me the ability to protect myself from certain earthly threats and I am willing to follow through on that. I didn't say anything to the contrary.

brad cook

 

[Bulldozer]

I've carried at weddings, funerals, christenings, bar mitzvahs, and a host of other church-related events. I carry anywhere not expressly prohibited by law.

Nobody knows. I'm sure I'm not the only guy out there that does so.

I'm of the firm opinion that God helps those who help themsleves. Churches can be and have been targets of crime. I'd not take too kindly to some hooligan defiling my place of worship.

 

[jojo]

P-32 in the pocket always, minimum.

jojo

 

[P95Carry]

Hey Austin!!! How you doin?!

I go to church rarely - usually only when attending an event like wedding, funeral etc. I respect the religious institutions but have no problem or discomforture over carrying within. Concealed means concealed and I feel our right of defence is applicable all places - tho Federal rules make that impossible at times!

At very least - R9 is in pocket - more usually SP-101 is there.