Why .45acp?
- Thread starter opr1945
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Bobson
Member
Because most people choose their calibers based on platform (the 1911) or emotion ("WOW 45 IS BIG").
DeepSouth
Random Guy
Because reality is different from paper and calculations.
Looking at paper, a BB is at some velocity twice as powerful as a 44 mag.
Looking at paper, a BB is at some velocity twice as powerful as a 44 mag.
The .45 ACP was created in maybe...1905. So at this point it has 111 years of history...that's a long time to build up a legacy.
It served countless US service men very well through two world wars, the Korean war, the Vietnam war, and with various units to a lesser degree in the first Gulf War, the Second Gulf war, and more recently the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
How could a caliber with that history not be popular?
It served countless US service men very well through two world wars, the Korean war, the Vietnam war, and with various units to a lesser degree in the first Gulf War, the Second Gulf war, and more recently the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
How could a caliber with that history not be popular?
for a 5 gr bb to have as much muzzle energy as a 44Mag.....it would have to be traveling at Mach 8 (~9,000fps)
pretty sure at that speed ide rather be hit by the 44 mag.
danez71
Member
Not me.
The BB going Mach 8 would surely cauterize the wound and prevent a bleed out.
Plus, it might be cool having a peep hole thru my chest.
But back to the OP. I'm not sure I understand what he's saying.
The energy #s list for the 45 are all better than the 9mm; not worse.
And I say that as a 9mm fan.
i think he meant worse from the standpoint of being shot......as in, 500ftlb is worse to be shot with than 200ftlb
Shane in MT
Member
The 45 is great, lots of history, and practical attributes. But I'm not so sure the 45 ACP is as preferred as it once was.
The 9mm seems to be getting a big share of the market, and I doubt it is due to being older than the 45 ACP. Smaller pistols, more capacity, better ammo...
The 9mm seems to be getting a big share of the market, and I doubt it is due to being older than the 45 ACP. Smaller pistols, more capacity, better ammo...
chicharrones
needs more ammo
I'm interested in what that magazine says about the .45 ACP. Since I see in your photo of the magazine page across from the chart, "why the .357", then they must comment on the .45 ACP.
In my non-scientific opinion "why the .45 ACP?".
The .45 ACP is big*, it's American, and it's easy to shoot in a full size 1911 pistol.
*Diameter is not the only measure of big, the weight of a .45 ACP bullet is "big", too.
TomJ
Contributing Member
There are quite a few other things that factor into the effectiveness of a bullet than the foot pounds of energy it delivers. Penetration (not too little or even too much), what type of bullet (hollow point, flat point, round nose, etc), reliable expansion for hollow points, etc. all factor into how much damage it will do to a person. What does more damage, a flat nose 185 grain 45 that penetrates 18 inches and hits vitals but has low foot pounds of energy or a 9mm hollow point that delivers more energy but expands in a way that causes it to only penetrate 9 inches, not hitting any vitals?
All bullets of the same caliber are not of equal effectiveness. Attached is a link to ammo tests Lucky Gunner did, one of many tests done. The differences among bullets of the same caliber and weight can be considerable. Finally, you have to consider the effectiveness as measured in real shootings, not just gel tests. I attached another link to one of those studies. It's data may be skewed in ways I'm not aware of, but it seems to be pretty thorough.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
All bullets of the same caliber are not of equal effectiveness. Attached is a link to ammo tests Lucky Gunner did, one of many tests done. The differences among bullets of the same caliber and weight can be considerable. Finally, you have to consider the effectiveness as measured in real shootings, not just gel tests. I attached another link to one of those studies. It's data may be skewed in ways I'm not aware of, but it seems to be pretty thorough.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
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opr1945
Member
"i think he meant worse from the standpoint of being shot......as in, 500ftlb is worse to be shot with than 200ftlb" yeah, that is what i meant.
.45acp has more ftlbs than 9mm, but about 50# more, that's about 13% more. and with 9 mm you get smaller gun, more ammo.
The chart was in a magazine, the question was mine. The chart was part of an article arguing that the .357 was a "good" round for self defense. Just trying to understand life better. that is all. Thanks.
Moderator:sorry to create more work. I think it is a legimate question. thanks.
.45acp has more ftlbs than 9mm, but about 50# more, that's about 13% more. and with 9 mm you get smaller gun, more ammo.
The chart was in a magazine, the question was mine. The chart was part of an article arguing that the .357 was a "good" round for self defense. Just trying to understand life better. that is all. Thanks.
Moderator:sorry to create more work. I think it is a legimate question. thanks.
FPE by itself isn't really an indicator of anything when it comes to terminal performance.
I think with modern ammo, 9mm edges out .45 ACP since it performs well and gives more capacity in a similar-sized gun. Practice ammo is also a lot cheaper. Both are good reasons to chose 9mm. Although I'm sure there are more than a few holdouts who prefer the .45 ACP, I think there are a bit less of them these days.
I think with modern ammo, 9mm edges out .45 ACP since it performs well and gives more capacity in a similar-sized gun. Practice ammo is also a lot cheaper. Both are good reasons to chose 9mm. Although I'm sure there are more than a few holdouts who prefer the .45 ACP, I think there are a bit less of them these days.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
I'd agree with that.
Yet .357 magnum guns are rather low capacity like a .45 ACP gun can be. So, for those that want capacity, then the 9mm sure is attractive.
Speaking of capacity, there are times I want more capacity because it can seem more comforting to have more shots on tap. There are other times I want more capacity because in some places a government puts limits on capacity and I still live in a state that doesn't restrict that capacity.
cslinger
Member
Honestly, and this is coming from somebody who likes .45, I think it comes down to history and nostalgia vs science.
In a time where advanced bullet design was unheard of and high capacity was an 8 round Luger at best, maybe a broom handle Mauser, the .45 was a big slug that didn't give up a lot of capacity and was probably ballistically superior in more than statistical noise ways.
Modern times I will say the .45 still offers some advantages.
-it's low pressure and fairly quiet. It Also suppresses very well.
-the heavy bullets do a nice job tearing through barriers.
-it's a pretty accurate round
-it's just as viable as a SD round as it was a century ago. More so with modern bullets and loading a.
-it is chambered in some very reliable and long tested platforms.
All that being said today.....all the service calibers are a wash. Figure out what you like and go with it. Magazine racing so to speak doesn't trump having an arm and being fairly proficient in it.
Besides how the hell can you not like .45 what are you?, a commie?
In a time where advanced bullet design was unheard of and high capacity was an 8 round Luger at best, maybe a broom handle Mauser, the .45 was a big slug that didn't give up a lot of capacity and was probably ballistically superior in more than statistical noise ways.
Modern times I will say the .45 still offers some advantages.
-it's low pressure and fairly quiet. It Also suppresses very well.
-the heavy bullets do a nice job tearing through barriers.
-it's a pretty accurate round
-it's just as viable as a SD round as it was a century ago. More so with modern bullets and loading a.
-it is chambered in some very reliable and long tested platforms.
All that being said today.....all the service calibers are a wash. Figure out what you like and go with it. Magazine racing so to speak doesn't trump having an arm and being fairly proficient in it.
Besides how the hell can you not like .45 what are you?, a commie?
edmo01
Member
As a guy who routinely carries a variety of calibers (38 Special, 9mm, 357 Mag, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP), I do like the 45 ACP. As an avid shooter I don't limit myself to one caliber, brand, style, or type of handgun. I want to be proficient in them all! Plus it is just fun to have variety. Now to why 45 ACP...
The 45 ACP round doesn't depend upon a lot of velocity to punch through things. The mass of these big bullets does the work. When the 45 ACP bullet loses a little velocity it is still able to perform. Some of the smaller, higher velocity rounds are more dependent on that speed to open up and "perform". When they lose some velocity, their terminal performance drops.
When you compare calibers don't think about the diameter, but rather the circumference of the wound channel. Blood loss occurs all around the full circumference of the wound channel. A little expansion in diameter will quickly increase the circumference and therefore increase the blood loss and wounding effect. Based on that, an unexpanded FMJ round at a .452" diameter will cut a bigger wound than some of the smaller bullets which may have partially expanded or totally failed to expand due to a loss of impact velocity.
OK, now for the 45 ACP fanboy smarty pants replies: "Because shooting twice is just silly" and "Because they don't make the 1911 in 46"...
To the modern self defense bullet designs... I think the tide has risen in bullet performance, however not all calibers increased their terminal performance equally. The smaller calibers such as the 380 ACP, 9mm, and 38 Special have gained more than the grand old 45 ACP.
Edmo
The 45 ACP round doesn't depend upon a lot of velocity to punch through things. The mass of these big bullets does the work. When the 45 ACP bullet loses a little velocity it is still able to perform. Some of the smaller, higher velocity rounds are more dependent on that speed to open up and "perform". When they lose some velocity, their terminal performance drops.
When you compare calibers don't think about the diameter, but rather the circumference of the wound channel. Blood loss occurs all around the full circumference of the wound channel. A little expansion in diameter will quickly increase the circumference and therefore increase the blood loss and wounding effect. Based on that, an unexpanded FMJ round at a .452" diameter will cut a bigger wound than some of the smaller bullets which may have partially expanded or totally failed to expand due to a loss of impact velocity.
OK, now for the 45 ACP fanboy smarty pants replies: "Because shooting twice is just silly" and "Because they don't make the 1911 in 46"...
To the modern self defense bullet designs... I think the tide has risen in bullet performance, however not all calibers increased their terminal performance equally. The smaller calibers such as the 380 ACP, 9mm, and 38 Special have gained more than the grand old 45 ACP.
Edmo
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ArchAngelCD
Member.
One reason might be a 9mm starts out at .355" where as a .45 ACP starts out at .451". With no expansion all all he 45 starts out where the 9mm tries to 've after good expansion. Add the fact the 45 dumps more energy into the target, it's a proven attack stopper. IMO nothing else matters but stopping the attack on yourself or your family.
Deaf Smith
Member
Cause bigger bullets TEND to stop better. Cause heavier bullets TEND to stop better. Cause faster bullets TEND to stop better. Cause better constructed bullets TEND to stop better.
Paper ballistics are just that, actual results on the street are what matters.
Deaf
A 357 is a good SD round. Recoil and muzzle blast make it harder to shoot. 40 is also good but gives you a sharper recoil IMO than a 45. As someone said it also has a long track record. Modern 9mm loads are about as good as a 45 and slightly better in my opinion than a 38.
FWIW I 38, 357, 9, and 45 depending. I have no use for 40.
FWIW I 38, 357, 9, and 45 depending. I have no use for 40.
Plan2Live
Member
Deaf Smith said:
Can you post a link to the study that arrived at that conclusion?
Do you really need a study to tell you that in real life more effective is better?
It's actually .09" and given 1.5X expansion that becomes .135" which is about the average diameter of the brachial artery (the large one that feeds the arm) just something to think about
Schwing
Member
IMHO .45ACP is so popular as a self defense caliber because it has both a proven record as well as somewhat of a Hollywood mythical track record of being "A man stopper". It has been around for a long time and has worked for self defense for a long time.
The reality of the matter is that no handgun caliber is tremendously effective without proper shot placement and nearly ALL handgun calibers can be effective with proper shot placement. It is that old comparison; What kills you better, a marble to the head at 1000FPS or a bowling ball at 5FPS?
Personally, I have carried many calibers at one point or another. I see pros and cons to each and enjoy shooting them all.
The reality of the matter is that no handgun caliber is tremendously effective without proper shot placement and nearly ALL handgun calibers can be effective with proper shot placement. It is that old comparison; What kills you better, a marble to the head at 1000FPS or a bowling ball at 5FPS?
Personally, I have carried many calibers at one point or another. I see pros and cons to each and enjoy shooting them all.
MIL-DOT
member
Because, as goes the old expression, "a 9mm may expand, but a .45 doesn't shrink".
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
But seriously now, in a SD pistol, I actually prefer a hi-cap 9mm to a typical (sub 10 rd) .45 pistol.
I like the .45acp round, and I like pistols chambered in it, but given the choice (as we are) ,15-18 rounds of a modern, high quality 9mm HP is tough to beat.
Sorry, I couldn't resist
. But seriously now, in a SD pistol, I actually prefer a hi-cap 9mm to a typical (sub 10 rd) .45 pistol.
I like the .45acp round, and I like pistols chambered in it, but given the choice (as we are) ,15-18 rounds of a modern, high quality 9mm HP is tough to beat.
CLP
member
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that BB would definitely cause some eye damage- mother's beware
Barr
Member
Think of the human body like a radiator, the bigger and more holes you poke the more effective the stopping power. Bullet weight and beginning diameter are 2 values that will not change, velocity, expansion, and penetration may vary.
I prefer 9mm personally but that is with a modern hollowpoint factory loaded.
I prefer 9mm personally but that is with a modern hollowpoint factory loaded.
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