Why are knives so expensive??

[rmarcustrucker]

sorry, i buy the most expensive they have at walmart. Just don't use them enough to understand the quality thing. It cuts well. Holds an edge well. But then again, i'm not a customized 1911 going for $2000.00 kinda guy. I stick with my xd45 such.

 

[The Tourist]

i'm not a customized 1911 going for $2000.00 kinda guy

And that's okay to say that, if those knives are providing real service to your life. Heck, there's a cheapo SuperKnife by our front entrance because my wife sells Pampered Chef as a part-time job. She's always whacking open cardboard boxes, and she likes that little knife.

My position is for guys who are cheap, know they are cheap, going to stay cheap, and won't pay me anyway. Sure, they'd love a polished edge, just like they'd love a Shelby Mustang, but the world somehow owes them a living.

The funniest guy I ever waited on came by to watch me sharpen, and then asked about Japanese knives and fees. I explained about laminates, what they were for and why they cut. So far, he was onboard.

As I mentioned fees, he seemed surprised, stating that a full-blown sashimi edge on his three inch knife would cost 50 bucks with tip and tax. I looked at his knife, nodded, and agree that there might even be the need for some minor knick repairs.

He wanted the edge, but clearly wasn't going to pay. He said to me, "Well, how about a demo first?"

I said, "Sure, no problem..."

I reached into my jeans, took out my Emerson and said, "Watch closely..."

I don't think I ever got a chance to put a stone on my own knife when he walked away in disgust.

The best man at my wedding is the same way. I can bust my butt under a harsh August sun casting bullets all day. However he only shows at the end of the day as I'm cleaning up--asking for some free spares...

 

[Valkman]

I guess knives aren't that expensive - I took orders for 2 $400 knives today after it was seen in Blade magazine. These are buyers who won't even use the knives, they're collectors who think my stuff is cheap!

 

[LAK]

A dying dollar.

I purchased an Al Mar SERE (the smallest of the three folders) in the early 80s. Produced in Japan, the price skyrocketed due to the exchange rate change between the dollar and the yen.

It takes almost $1000 to buy an ounce of gold now compared to about $400 a short while back.

 

[GunTech]

The poster who said 'what the market will bear' has it right. Up to a certain point you do get what you pay for, but beyond that it's al cachet.

I had knives for many years, and I'm sure that 'the tourist' will agree that 90% of the work is in the last 10% of the finish.

You can turn out an excellent and serviceable knife with very little effort. Cutting the profile, grinding the shape, heat teat, final edge are all basically straight forward. Not meant as a slam but knives like those from Strider are easy and cheap to make, and are in my opinion not representative of cost, but rather they charge based on marketing.

Now, if you look at a high end custom, that perfect fitting and mirror finish takes a lot of time and effort to obtain. On an art knife, I will easily put 20x the time into the finish as I do into making the actual knife.

Knife making is, like any other 'tool' manufacturing, most cost effective when done via mass production and with machines. Use the same steels and heat treat and there is basically no functional difference between a hand made knife and a machine made on.

On the other hand, a hand made or custom knife represents a lot of time - time spent by the maker one you knife. If you figure it out at an hourly rate, the poor knife makers isn't doing too well monetarily.

 

[GunTech]

Valkman, did you ever sit down and figure out what you are making hourly? I don't see how the full time guys can make a living unless they have a 'name' and do many art pieces.

For those of you comparing knives to guns price-wise, consider this. How much would you pay for a custom made handgun? That is one built specifically to your specifications? I think you find that custom knives are quite reasonable, particularly since the gunsmith doesn't have to make the slide, frame and other parts from scratch.

 

[Pax Jordana]

The "I just don't see it." folks and the "Quality costs" folks.

Nay, sir, for I knowe in american manufacture that many passes are made oer the piece, of a high magick nature, and good magicks they are, endorsed by Mother Church, for the castings-out of many spirits, be they of the metalls themselfs or mayhap drawn in by a misfortune of the artisan, if mayhap he perchance to suffer a curse or some misfortune, or mayhap he glance with disdain on a poor widow passing in the road, if she be a gipsy or simply posessed of a weirding nature. But these passes are the mark of fine american artisanry, and of afore-mentioned high magick, with smokes and powders and suchlike, and thus set us and our artisanry apart from the darker arts of the east (where the goodly spirit of man and church is let out in favor of the cuttings-torch and the buffings-wheele; animated in sooth by those very spirits that ought be driven out) and thus the larger portion of your payment goes to those passes - an they not be passed, more's the pity.



Most of your money, in production knives, is going to exclusivity, materials or hype. In hand-finished or custom knives, you're paying more for skill and labor. Or so I think.

 

[sm]

My background, how raised, doing my apprenticeship starting very young, dealing with people/ experiences from retail, wholesale, distributor, sales, and service and custom service...

People are basically nuts. *smile*

There a lot of variables in all this, and folks only want to see, or understand what they want to see. In any industry, including knives , there are bad representatives.

Oh you ask a question about their business, and some will come down on you and defend and give all sorts of reasons why "their" time and product costs as it does, just they cannot or will not have the common courtesy and respect, to respect your industry.

Tourist is a good example and I hope he won't mind me using him for example.

Tourist has invested time and money to get where he is and build up a clientèle.
Mutual Respect and common courtesy among craftsman. Tourist will pay a gunsmith to do work for him, he understand that gunsmith is like him in a lot of ways.

Now, Tourist and Gunsmith each need service for each other. They may pay each other or work out a trade.
If the Gunsmith has a grandkid with a inexpensive knife they messed in learning about knives, Tourist may choose to volunteer to "give me that thing and let me get the nicks out, heck I was kid and played mumbly peg too".

Tourist may find a old H&R Revolver and like one he had as a kid, fond memories.
"Gunsmith, I know this is not your thing, just this old thing is a sentimental reminder and what do you think?"

Gunsmith...no he does not do this sorta thing, still Tourist messed with a inexpensive for him and "give me that thing, I can clean it up and heck make a part if need".

Two craftsman, with mutual respect and common courtesy, and not taking advantage of each other.

Tourist may choose to show the gunsmith a trick on knife sharpening, and Gunsmith a trick on gun smithing...that is b/t them.

Cabinet Maker comes into both Tourist and Gunsmith place, and he/she made a neat wooden something for both of them to use in their work.

Cabinet maker has nice tools, and still pulls out a inexpensive knife..."I use this one not so much as a knife, more as a little spatula for glue in small places, or..."

Tourist is not going to think this guy is a cheapskate, heck Tourist probably has a rinky dink imitation wood cabinet he keeps junk stuff in.

Folks do not see or want to see the whole picture.
Some will get upset if you do not see their view though.

Apprenticeship in learning to do a craft , whether knives, guns, cabinets, is just like someone going to HVAC , Law School, Medical School, or anything else.

Time, years, tools and working up to where one finally gets paid for all the previous years they did not with long hours and eating peanut butter and jelly.

Sure, there will always be bad representative in any Profession or Industry, always has been...

 

[Valkman]

Valkman, did you ever sit down and figure out what you are making hourly? I don't see how the full time guys can make a living unless they have a 'name' and do many art pieces.

No, haven't done it. I'm afraid I'll find out I'm making $3 an hour.

But I know what you mean - full time knifemakers had better have a wife that works because that's an awful tough way to make a living and not many can do it.

 

[The Tourist]

because that's an awful tough way to make a living and not many can do it.

This is correct. I lost money the first year I was a full-time tinker.

 

[walking arsenal]

Seven years ago my best friend stated "You need a good folding knife" and bought me one.

I picked it out.

It is a Smith and Wesson spec ops.

Cost him 50$

I have had that knife on me every day since and it has always worked.

I used it when I did search and rescue and when I worked security.

I use it for everything else now.

The only thing I do to it is clean the lint out of it once in a while and keep it sharp.

The finish looks like heck now.

Two years ago I bought a replacement just in case this one broke.

Its never been used and now sits in my Bug out bag.

The same knife now costs $25.

Quality doesn't always cost.

 

[hso]

Valkman, The Tourist,

And think what happens when a full time maker gets sick and can't work for a month or a year? Loss of income and medical bills (just like any small businessman/craftsman.)

Most full time makers are either retired with good retirement, are married to spouses with jobs with benefits, or have big names who's knives bring big prices from a devoted and ardent collector clientèle. It's very rare that custom knife makers make ends meet outside of those 3 groups. I can think of 4 that I know that make a living for their families off their knives alone and who aren't big name makers.

 

[The Tourist]

Most full time makers are either retired with good retirement

I disagree. Becoming involved in the knife industry is the same, the exact same, as starting any other small business.

In fact, a few days ago I spoke to a woman at the gym who started a coffee and sandwich shop in a nearby town. Like any other smaller business, she lost money the first year.

She's not receiving Social Security, a trust fund nor is she married. More than one out of every three new businesses fold.

Granted, I was fifty years old when I started my business. And I had a leg up, I had been in business and finance the prior 30 years. I knew a lot of the pitfalls and how to blunt them.

But an interesting thing happened about two years into my little business. My wife and I would go out to a restaurant and she would pay the tab in crumpled fives and tens. I noticed she wasn't using the credit card much at all. Then, after a few more months, she told me she had to go to the bank and "get rid of some of this cash."

Naturally, I asked about this condition. She blandly stanted, "It's sharpening money."

That year I had to make an appointment with our tax guy to re-structure how we paid business and personal taxes. My little business was now profitable!

I didn't win the lottery or do anything different in the style of business I offered or in the quality provided. I got out of bed every morning and got my butt to work.

This condition and my work ethic have absolutely nothing to do with knives, or sharpening or innovation in that field. There was a niche' market that needed a quality service, and I applied an age-old concept in commerce. Sweat equity.

When I needed money as a teenager, my Father always said the same thing, "There's money laying all over the ground--bend your back and pick it up."

You can apply that principle to any field of business. Or you can hide behind excuses and say, "The market is against me." Here in this period of recession I just got hired to a better job.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Making a Living

by hso

Most full time makers are either retired with good retirement, . . .

by The Tourist

I disagree. Becoming involved in the knife industry is the same, the exact same, as starting any other small business.

While I agree with The Tourist that small businesses have much in common with one another, and that the primary component in all of them is showing up, I have to concede that hso has a point regarding knife-making in particular.

There are certain endeavors that are more time-intensive than others and which produce a result that sells to a very narrow market indeed.

I write software for a living. One of the most successful custom software writers I've met was a fellow who coded to a simple and (in my opinion) stilted model that allowed him to re-use quite a lot of his code from one client to the next. Each successive client required less time to write the application because more and more of the code was already done in advance.

I went the quality route. I was able to re-use a fair amount of my code, but my applications were more custom and more "tuned" to each client. He made more money than I did.

There comes a point in making things by hand where you run into the finite nature of hours-in-a-day. At that point, there are only a few things you can do to mitigate that limit:

• work faster -- get more product done in fewer hours;
• hire help -- put more hands on the job to get more product;
• become a machinist -- make tools that make tools, machinery that reduces required time & effort.

To the degree that you insist on doing it all by hand and all by yourself, you will hit a limit that's defined by the maximum price you can demand and still sell product, and the amount of product you can make to meet customer demand.

Yes, you have to show up.

Even so, labor-intensive production is time-bounded and market-bounded.

Showing up -- at all -- vastly improves your chances.

Showing up smarter is what drives mass production.

 

[BigG]

As a fetish item, like cars, Harleys, Colts, desirable women, etc., they go for whatever the market will bear. Logic does not enter the picture. JMTC

A KA-BAR is made in USA, good steel, sharpenable, durable, comes in many varieties and costs you $30 - $40 . Pretty much everything I need, but a knife is not a fetish to me.

 

[Valkman]

I think the biggest requirement for a full time maker is that he has enough years in so that his stuff sells immediately and/or he had dealers waiting for whatever knives they can get. I don't know of any full time makers that actually put many knives up for sale - most don't even take orders. Their stuff is very expensive but when a knife comes up for sale it's snapped up immediately. Once you have that it's a matter of staying healthy and putting in the hours, as many don't even have health insurance. Like hso said, sickness and injury can be catastrophic and injuries are very common.

No matter to me though, I can only work a few hours a day on this stuff and it will remain a hobby. A hobby where some will look at my stuff and say "That's too expensive - I can a get a knife that'll do what that does at Wal-Mart" but others will say " For those prices I can have a custom knife that I hand down to my son and he can hand down to his." That's who I make knives for!

 

[The Tourist]

Valkman, there will always be detractors no matter what your line of work might be. The biggest complaint I hear is that I charge too much. These guys are still seriously cutting themselves, but they still complain.

Other than profits, we have to enjoy the work we do. If you spend any time listening to your friends as they commiserate, you'll find their jobs bother them as much as "the government."

I have achieved a place where I can work the number of hours I wish, the days I wish, and whom I choose to serve. I built my business on customer service--and it is The Golden Mean of how I wish to act--however, there's nothing stopping a client from going elsewhere if he chooses.

If he wishes a substandard sharpening, that's kind of his problem. But I'm not going to lower the standards of my conduct because a skinflint can't get a $150.00 edge for nine bucks.

If you dislike your job, begin building a business in the evening. It might take you a few years, but then, those years are going to elapse anyway. Learn a craft, and line up clients while you have a day job.

It's the best thing I ever did. I should have started this after college.

 

[Valkman]

Yep, to be a knifemaker you have to really love what you do. We had a guy a while back on another forum asking about possibly being a full time maker - and he hadn't made knife #1 yet. He was told by several great makers that he should make some knives and see if it's even something he enjoys doing!

But that base of clients must be there. A new maker trying to do this fulltime would find it almost impossible - at 3 years experience I could not do it as I figure I know about 10% of what the great ones know about knifemaking. I would figure a minimum of 5 years and probably more like 10 would be required to be successful, and you'd better make folders.

My client base is slowly changing from people who are buying their first customs (I love dealing with them!) to guys who can buy anything they want but they order 4 or 5 of my knives to collectors, who I'm hearing from now since the Blade exposure. It's kind of a neat evolution that just happens as you get better and no one yet has complained about my prices.

I wouldn't deal with anyone who'd want to give me less than I think my knife is worth. I don't base my prices on how many hours I spend making it - I'd have to charge way more than they're worth. I base it on how my knives fall into line with more experienced makers - if they're charging $450 for a 4" hunter then I cannot charge anywhere near that. So I'll charge around $250 for the base knife and add on as materials dictate. As my experience grows and demand grows then I will be able to charge more, and buy better materials and machinery.

 

[The Tourist]

Valkman, you have learned "the riddle of swarf."

I cannot make you happy. You must discover that for yourself.

Good luck to you. Be sure to post lots of pictures.

 

[cheygriz]

Why does a Busse cost more than a Chinese
Buck???? :banghead::banghead:

Well, why does a Kimber cost more than a Lorcin??????

 

[icebones]

knives like the oned from ZeroTOlerance and SOG cost so much because the material and process used in manufacture.

top end knife makers use extremely high quality steel chosen for its hardness, and strength, the steel is heat treated, either drawn out or tempered and hand ground to a fine edge. but i have to agree with you, a knife that costs more than soem if the guns i own had better be a damn good knife...

 

[pbhome71]

The post from The Tourist about polishing an edge on a knife is $50/inch got me curious.

I got a couple of folders at home, so it tried to see if I can get a polished edge on one of them.

Well, let me just say that if I need to have a mirror finished edge, I will be gladly send it to The Tourist.

-Pat

 

[Bob R]

Because you start with this:

and this:

And end up with something like this:



Something along those lines, maybe not the iron ore, but it has to start somewhere.

That's why some knives are expensive.

That plus the soul that some knife makers put into their blades.

bob

 

[The Tourist]

mirror finished edge, I will be gladly send it to The Tourist

I wouldn't speak too soon.

Last week, Mandirigma sent me a titanium knife I had the devil's own time trying to sharpen. It was so difficult, that I had to call another professional sharpener for advice. We both have different sharpening disciplines, and I was ready to box up Mandirigma's property and send it to this other tinker.

I am still awaiting his critque.

 

[Valkman]

Yep, what Mr. Tourist does has me intrigued also as I've never heard of sharpening knives to this extreme or making a living at it.

So last night I got done with 3 knives and went to sharpen them. Usually I use a 220 grit belt to make an edge and then go to the Sharpmaker. Here I made the edge at 220 and then moved to 400 and then to a 800 grit belt and believe I got them sharper than usual. It's going to take lots of practice, especially doing it by hand with no jigs!