Why... Arisaka 38

[LoonWulf]

. “Last Ditch” guns can be pretty dismal as well

@tark or @boom boom can give a better explanation, or correct me if I'm wrong.
From my research most of what actually exploded on folks were likely training rifles.
The last ditch, substitute standards, or navy something or other, while crude and nasty (specially the Navy cast iron guns), were completely safe.
I'd be leery of any rifle that had a catastrophic case failure unless checked by a VERY qualified gunsmith. An Arisaka is probably more than likely ok, unless it was a training rifle, I still wouldn't put it back together without a checkup.

 

[fpgt72]

Worth it... no. Type 99 like all arisaka are pretty much overlooked by most collectors and as such the prices stay pretty low unless it’s something extremely rare or in perfect condition. “Last Ditch” guns can be pretty dismal as well... and understandably so trying to crank out volume as the enemy starts coming closer to your doors and starts bombing your mainland cities, you forget about quality control pretty quickly. If you really wanted to do a restore, the way to do it with your described situation is to buy an action (preferably barreled action) and swap your parts over to the other action.

IMHO

Well to a point,

Even the unloved (read that as anything but german or american) is starting to go up in value. The guns at the bottom of the heap in many eyes Italy, France, Japan have started climbing....even the lowly mosin is not selling for $99 any longer.

I would not try to save your rifle.....there are others out there if you want to have the experience.

 

[tark]

@tark or @boom boom can give a better explanation, or correct me if I'm wrong.
From my research most of what actually exploded on folks were likely training rifles.
The last ditch, substitute standards, or navy something or other, while crude and nasty (specially the Navy cast iron guns), were completely safe.
I'd be leery of any rifle that had a catastrophic case failure unless checked by a VERY qualified gunsmith. An Arisaka is probably more than likely ok, unless it was a training rifle, I still wouldn't put it back together without a checkup.

The substitute standard type 99s had to pass proof, just like the earlier guns. To call them "last ditch" guns is improper. The Japanese were simply trying to cut costs as much as possible while still producing a serviceable arm.

No different than what we did by producing the 03-A3.

 

[Slamfire]

From my research most of what actually exploded on folks were likely training rifles.

Yes, even the local gunstore did not know this was a training rifle. They had it as a 6.5 Arisaka.

 

[WestKentucky]

Nice. Will have to be polished and loved on a bit, but for a service rifle of its history it is nice.

And @LoonWulf I have decided that .450 bushy might have to be the one. I like the ruger gun site scout but there’s something weird about it that doesn’t sit right with me. If I can build out the arisaka for the $500 or so I think I can do it for (and do it very well) I should be able to make a comparable rifle that fits my taste a bit better.

 

[troy fairweather]

I'd do 458 American.

 

[LoonWulf]

Nice. Will have to be polished and loved on a bit, but for a service rifle of its history it is nice.

And @LoonWulf I have decided that .450 bushy might have to be the one. I like the ruger gun site scout but there’s something weird about it that doesn’t sit right with me. If I can build out the arisaka for the $500 or so I think I can do it for (and do it very well) I should be able to make a comparable rifle that fits my taste a bit better.

only issue I can think of is that you may need to work on feeding if your going to run really blunt bullets. Otherwise it should be a pretty straight forward conversion.

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

WestKentucky, except for the oddball safety, type 38s are pretty cool. I have a pretty rare calvery carbine with intact mum thats been rechambered in 6.5 Roberts.
I like the thumper direction you are leaning but assuming you live west of Owensboro, I would have expected you to try to turn this into a flat shooting beanfield rifle. Lots of places out that way where you can really stretch her legs without going all the way to Ballard county. Either way, sounds like a heck of a deal you got on that action. Even though you said it was going to be a very slow build, please take pictures along the way, we need pics man.

 

[boom boom]

WestKentucky, except for the oddball safety, type 38s are pretty cool. I have a pretty rare calvery carbine with intact mum thats been rechambered in 6.5 Roberts.
I like the thumper direction you are leaning but assuming you live west of Owensboro, I would have expected you to try to turn this into a flat shooting beanfield rifle. Lots of places out that way where you can really stretch her legs without going all the way to Ballard county. Either way, sounds like a heck of a deal you got on that action. Even though you said it was going to be a very slow build, please take pictures along the way, we need pics man.

I would suspect that is was the 6.5x257 Wildcat version of Roberts that was done to Arisakas in particular as 7x57 mm Mauser necked down to .257 was the original basis for the Roberts cartridge. If it has not had the barrel changed, then it is the 6.5x257 or the improved version of such which was done simply by reaming out the chamber.

You might not be pleased with whoever rechambered and or sportered it as T44 Carbine carbines untouched are bringing hefty price starting at around $900-1000. The bayonet and its mount alone go for about two bills and the stocks are worth upwards of 300-400 with the weird buttplate and other fixings installed. Rechambering it and whatever sporterizing was done will reduce the price substantially from an untouched rifle due to collector preferences.

Regarding the metallurgy of the Arisaka T38, Hatcher's notebook covers the topic. It is carbon steel with typically good heat treatment and to my recollection there were not last ditch T38's as a separate make. It is not supersteel but merely excellent craftsmanship on a design that was overengineered for the cartridge that it was firing. The semi-rimmed nature of the 6.5 Japanese and the chamber cartridge support also helped along with the gas handling abilities of the T38 from some of the problems that other nation's designs had.

Most T38's from my recollection and brief review have prewar starting in 1905 to early WWII production dates and then the Japanese switched to producing the T99 around 1940-41. Mukden to the best of my knowledge was one of the last factories to produce T38's to about 1944. Mukden Arsenal did produce some T45's which are a mix of the Mukden Mauser with Japanese T38 parts at the very end of the war that were chambered in 6.5 Japanese but I have never seen (other than pix) nor held one.

Given that the Showa steel works was nearby to the arsenal and only bombed a couple of times, it was still producing good steel until almost the very end.

 

[WestKentucky]

WestKentucky, except for the oddball safety, type 38s are pretty cool. I have a pretty rare calvery carbine with intact mum thats been rechambered in 6.5 Roberts.
I like the thumper direction you are leaning but assuming you live west of Owensboro, I would have expected you to try to turn this into a flat shooting beanfield rifle. Lots of places out that way where you can really stretch her legs without going all the way to Ballard county. Either way, sounds like a heck of a deal you got on that action. Even though you said it was going to be a very slow build, please take pictures along the way, we need pics man.

I have a range rifle, I want more of a toy this time around. My .270 is hurting at the moment, but I think I can get her back to shooting well enough, and if not I have my 6.8 which I’m good with out to 400 yards and I really would prefer to pistol hunt anyways and the 7-30 contender is good to 200 assuming I get a good rest. I am more lacking in the thumper category because my only unscoped rifle is a marlin 336 30-30, or a .357 revolver, or a .357 contender, or shotguns with slugs. The .450 bushmaster idea came about somewhat out of laziness. The case head is close enough that I will not have to fool with converting a bolt over. That’s enough reason to run me that direction, and the .450 will do well loaded lighter as well so I can set up a light recoil thumper for my girls if/when they decide to hunt.

 

[.455_Hunter]

As a side note, how do you decock an Arisaka action?

 

[boom boom]

As a side note, how do you decock an Arisaka action?

The Arisakas cock on closing.

WARNING__NOT SAFE WITH AMMO PRESENT
One way is to keep the trigger depressed when moving the bolt forward to locking position. This keep the sear down and does not cock the cocking piece/striker in the bolt.

The other way is to open the bolt as it cocks on closing and opening the bolt from the locked position decocks it.

Only other way is to take apart the rifle.

 

[.455_Hunter]

One way is to keep the trigger depressed when moving the bolt forward to locking position. This keep the sear down and does not cock the cocking piece/striker in the bolt.

Maybe. It seems like that on a high percentage of Arisakas that I had handled over the years, this "standard" method doesn't work.

 

[boom boom]

Maybe. It seems like that on a high percentage of Arisakas that I had handled over the years, this "standard" method doesn't work.

Unfortunately a lot of folks have messed with the sears and cocking piece/firing pin, some do not have matching bolts (the bolts were handfitted along with the bolt parts such as the safety knob and firing pin/cocking piece and serialized to the rifle), and so on. Burrs, chips on the sear surface, non-matching parts, and so forth can cause the firing pin's cocking surface to grab onto the sear surface and cock the rifle.

The standard way is to open the bolt, not keep the trigger down when closing the bolt. The other method usually works on Mausers and Mauser derivatives such as the Arisaka at the risk of an AD.

 

[WestKentucky]

Unfortunately a lot of folks have messed with the sears and cocking piece/firing pin, some do not have matching bolts (the bolts were handfitted along with the bolt parts such as the safety knob and firing pin/cocking piece and serialized to the rifle), and so on. Burrs, chips on the sear surface, non-matching parts, and so forth can cause the firing pin's cocking surface to grab onto the sear surface and cock the rifle.

The standard way is to open the bolt, not keep the trigger down when closing the bolt. The other method usually works on Mausers and Mauser derivatives such as the Arisaka at the risk of an AD.

So far, a complete bolt looks to be roughly the exact same price as a beat up sporter rifle from which I could scavenge a complete bolt, and possibly a matched receiver. The bolt is the big deal here, and I’m beginning to wonder if I shouldn’t buy a type 99 action to build instead because the parts are cheaper and easier to find. A donor rifle is definitely the way to go.

What’s a good Japanese name that resembles Bubba?

 

[boom boom]

So far, a complete bolt looks to be roughly the exact same price as a beat up sporter rifle from which I could scavenge a complete bolt, and possibly a matched receiver. The bolt is the big deal here, and I’m beginning to wonder if I shouldn’t buy a type 99 action to build instead because the parts are cheaper and easier to find. A donor rifle is definitely the way to go.

What’s a good Japanese name that resembles Bubba?

I would guess Bubba-san.

From what I understand, a lot of mismatches came about due to bolts being in one pile and rifles in the other when turned over by the Japanese. Similarly, ships and commanders bringing troops home also had a variety of standards applied which ended up separating the numbered bolts from their rifle. And then there has been over 70 years of uncertain history for these rifles with some filtering in from other places where the Japanese left these rifles.

The Type 99 is a decent action also but you will find complete bolts for these pretty expensive too. There was a company on the west coast in Oregon I believe that made some bolt replacement parts. I bought one of their firing pin/cocking piece for a T99 and it required quite a bit of fitting. You can use a T38 bolt and extractor btw with a T99 firing pin, T99 firing pin spring, and T99 Safety Knob. The parts might require minor fitting though. Do not just use the T99 firing pin alone in the T38 bolt as it will jam the rifle up. Have to replace the bolt innards as a set.

 

[LoonWulf]

I would guess Bubba-san

I'd probably go with Baka-chan.....

 

[LoonWulf]

I may still have a handle less t99 bolt body, extractor, and safety in my parts bin I'll look tomorrow when I get home.

 

[eastbank]

I would buy a t-38 if I found one full military with a good bore, their bores were no crome plated. my small collection of ww-2 Japanese bring backs, t-99,s and nambu pistol. rifles and pistol have matching number. the second rifle down was a bring back my uncle gave me and I have killed deer with it. with my reloads that duplicate the original shells fps-weight they will shoot 2-3" groups at 100 yards.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

I'd probably go with Baka-chan.....

Or Baka-Aho...

 

[Ironhand54]

350 Legend???

 

[WestKentucky]

350 Legend???

Considered that. Barrels aren’t as plentiful, and aren’t nearly as cheap when you look at cost/quality. The things that’s kicking me here though is making brass. Legend brass would be relatively easy to make from common brass.

 

[boom boom]

Considered that. Barrels aren’t as plentiful, and aren’t nearly as cheap when you look at cost/quality. The things that’s kicking me here though is making brass. Legend brass would be relatively easy to make from common brass.

I am just going to throw this out there as a possibility. This cartridge would not stress the action, would probably feed okay, factory ammo and brass is available, and it is a decent hunting round. You might want to consider a .35 Remington for the conversion. The CUP rating puts it into the same category if a bit less than the 6.5 Arisaka, the case head is a near match, the Arisaka is a semi rimmed cartridge and the .35 Remington is rimless, both are bottleneck cases which helps feeding, and the OAL for the .35 Remington is only a bit shorter than the 6.5 Arisaka but much longer than pistol cartridges which would probably require some sort of mag block.

LoonWulf might know a bit more about putting a sporter barrel on one but I do not recall anything special about the Arisaka barrel when compared with the Mauser except for the Arisaka's better cartridge support and the extractor cut needed. You might also be able to adapt some of the barrels that Rhinelander Arms puts out for the Mauser in .35 Rem with some alterations. It uses a barrel nut to set the headspace.

 

[gotboostvr]

Legend brass would be relatively easy to make from common brass.

No it isn't. It's proprietary, 357 AR MAX, can however be made from 5.56 brass and is what Winchester should have just done. The Barrels aren't any cheaper though.