Josey
member
There is something SO WRONG about changing recoil springs and ADDING a recoil buffer!
Why buy pistols that don't work?
- Thread starter Marshall
- Start date
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There is something SO WRONG about changing recoil springs and ADDING a recoil buffer!Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
My 5" 1911s have all worked out of the box. Never played with the midget versions or junk brands, though. Never tried to shoot +P hollowpoints out of "target" guns. Didn't try to use $5 magazines in a $600+ gun and wonder why it didn't work. You get the idea.
Treylis
Member
Why does a dimple on the follower matter?
Lots of great advice here-my experience is very similar to Sean's, although in my younger days, I tried to hot rod some 1911's-some were good and some not so.
One thing I have never done is to alter the frame or slide on a government model. That way, when my modified parts did not work as I wanted them to, I could always go back to the tried and true.
The original design is a deceptively simple, and lots of people think they can just swap out parts and dremel the heck out of it. The function is in the details, and every part you change has to have the strength as well as the proper angles, although Browning's design is pretty tolerant up to a point.
If the design were bad, it would have died in the WW1 trenches.
One thing I have never done is to alter the frame or slide on a government model. That way, when my modified parts did not work as I wanted them to, I could always go back to the tried and true.
The original design is a deceptively simple, and lots of people think they can just swap out parts and dremel the heck out of it. The function is in the details, and every part you change has to have the strength as well as the proper angles, although Browning's design is pretty tolerant up to a point.
If the design were bad, it would have died in the WW1 trenches.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Dimple
Treylis asked:
Why does a dimple on the follower matter?
Here ya go Treylis. It's a fairly long read, but it's in-depth.
Try to keep one thing in mind as you sort it out:
Browning put it there for a good reason, just like he did with everything else on and in the gun, and everything worked....Best leave it be.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63584&highlight=Inertia
Happy huntin'!
Tuner
Treylis asked:
Why does a dimple on the follower matter?
Here ya go Treylis. It's a fairly long read, but it's in-depth.
Try to keep one thing in mind as you sort it out:
Browning put it there for a good reason, just like he did with everything else on and in the gun, and everything worked....Best leave it be.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63584&highlight=Inertia
Happy huntin'!
Tuner
CZ52GUY
Member
Another good source of info'
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/index.php?s=
When I was researching my recent 1911 purchase I visited the folks over at the link above.
I think you'll find it very educational. I ended up with a SA Mil-Spec, 3 Brownell 7's, an 8-rd Wilson, and 4 8-rd Chip McCormacks mag's that have all worked very well. The only mag's I've had any issues with are 7-rd factory Colts (feed fine...don't lock the slide back after last round).
The 1911 is a special platform...I didn't know what the big deal with...but after shooting mine...I'm starting to understand...it's a joy to shoot and mine has about 1000 trouble free rounds through it in the first 10 weeks of ownership. I don't expect to do much of anything to customize it...it'll be a workhorse .45acp piece that I hope to shoot a lot.
Good luck,
CZ52'
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/index.php?s=
When I was researching my recent 1911 purchase I visited the folks over at the link above.
I think you'll find it very educational. I ended up with a SA Mil-Spec, 3 Brownell 7's, an 8-rd Wilson, and 4 8-rd Chip McCormacks mag's that have all worked very well. The only mag's I've had any issues with are 7-rd factory Colts (feed fine...don't lock the slide back after last round).
The 1911 is a special platform...I didn't know what the big deal with...but after shooting mine...I'm starting to understand...it's a joy to shoot and mine has about 1000 trouble free rounds through it in the first 10 weeks of ownership. I don't expect to do much of anything to customize it...it'll be a workhorse .45acp piece that I hope to shoot a lot.
Good luck,
CZ52'
Cameron Lamont
Member
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2003
- Messages
- 133
Like the network news, you are much more likely to read the negative stories here, for every problem reported there are a couple hundred shooters that have not had any...
My bone stock Colt Government 4 weeks old, 1000 assorted rounds ZERO FAILURES
Cameron
My bone stock Colt Government 4 weeks old, 1000 assorted rounds ZERO FAILURES
Cameron
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Mags
The Problem:
The only mag's I've had any issues with are 7-rd factory Colts (feed fine...don't lock the slide back after last round).
The Cure:
Wolff springs...ba-da BING!
EDIT TO ADD:
Oh yeah...Overspringin' the slide'll cause that too.
The Problem:
The only mag's I've had any issues with are 7-rd factory Colts (feed fine...don't lock the slide back after last round).
The Cure:
Wolff springs...ba-da BING!
EDIT TO ADD:
Oh yeah...Overspringin' the slide'll cause that too.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
when gou get right down to it, the 1911 is a solid and reliable gun when built as JMB intended, and when properly built can do really amazing things AND be reliable, ut idf middled with by the inexperienced, will be counted on to malfunction.
Wildalaska
member
Yikes Tuner thats bold...
Wildiuse18Alaska
Jacobus Rex
Member
I prefer 1911's to be plain and simple. They should have loose tolerances as intended and not have infernal gadgets hung on them.
Having said that, I've owned 4 through the years and all 4 have been reliable.
They are as follows:
1. Colt Series 80 - Reliable but dented brass. OK accuracy. Sold it.
2. Remington-Rand 1911A1 - Super reliable and pretty accurate. Should not have sold it.
3. Colt Combat Elite - Reliable. OK accuracy. Too expensive. Sold it.
4. Springfield Milspec. - Reliable. Nice price. Simple. OK accuracy. Still have it.
The only repair that I can think of that I made to any of these was to replace the flat spring on the Remington-Rand 1911A1 that I had. It broke after almost 60 years of use.
I really like plain, simple basic 1911's. I don't like the custom jobs and high priced production models. I find it funny that some custom 1911 smiths scream if you use the slide stop as a slide release. It seems odd to worry about damaging a gun made for combat by using it in such a manner.
The unmodified 1911 as it was designed is a fine gun and reliable with good magazines. I've had failures but 99.9% were the result of bad magazines and bad ammo. (My buddies and I used to make .45 ACP reloads that we called "dirt loads". They were very primitive, ugly, and cheap. However, they were not reliable.)
Thanks,
Jacobus
Having said that, I've owned 4 through the years and all 4 have been reliable.
They are as follows:
1. Colt Series 80 - Reliable but dented brass. OK accuracy. Sold it.
2. Remington-Rand 1911A1 - Super reliable and pretty accurate. Should not have sold it.
3. Colt Combat Elite - Reliable. OK accuracy. Too expensive. Sold it.
4. Springfield Milspec. - Reliable. Nice price. Simple. OK accuracy. Still have it.
The only repair that I can think of that I made to any of these was to replace the flat spring on the Remington-Rand 1911A1 that I had. It broke after almost 60 years of use.
I really like plain, simple basic 1911's. I don't like the custom jobs and high priced production models. I find it funny that some custom 1911 smiths scream if you use the slide stop as a slide release. It seems odd to worry about damaging a gun made for combat by using it in such a manner.
The unmodified 1911 as it was designed is a fine gun and reliable with good magazines. I've had failures but 99.9% were the result of bad magazines and bad ammo. (My buddies and I used to make .45 ACP reloads that we called "dirt loads". They were very primitive, ugly, and cheap. However, they were not reliable.)
Thanks,
Jacobus
I've had Glocks, Berettas, a CZ, a Ruger .357, Dan Wesson .357 (both revolvers), Taurus revolvers, Bersas, an old S&W revolver, and I've finally settled into 3 1911s and a Browning Hi Power. For me the 1911 style is the best. I've had no problems, but I'm just using stock models with no mods to them.
The only one I regret getting rid of is the Ruger GP100.
The only one I regret getting rid of is the Ruger GP100.
CZ52GUY
Member
re: The Cure
The other cure, use the stone cold reliable 8-rd Chip McCormick's Power Mag's for competition...use the partially functional 7-rd Colts for dry fire or simple target practice...use the spring money for ammo' .
In all seriousness, the research I did before buying my SA Mil-Spec and mag's pointed to several schools of thought and a variety of experiences among 1911 owners as posted on multiple forums. Put another way, the constant was variability of experience.
I read good and bad about Metalform, CM, Wilson, Ed Brown, GI, etc. The other constant was that few had good things to say about their factory mag's.
Given that I enjoy competing in "pistol games", I tried to filter some of the feedback and focused on those who indicated that they competed with their 1911's. IDPA shooters tend to shoot a lot, slide lock reloads will get some sand in the mag'...tactical or reload with retention will involve some hard slamming into the well. If a mag' stands up to this kind of use, it should do me just fine. While there were no absolutes, the CM 8-rd Power Mag's with Pad seemed to get the best overall reviews for reliability, durability...and value.
I haven't had mine long enough to stand the test the time...but so far, so good. My experience has tracked to that of the CM advocates. I continue to practice with my Mil-Spec with a goal of shooting it competitively in the fall (right now I'll probably stick with my Glocks...simple, reliable, and accurate enough for the distances of the average IDPA stage).
Bottom line, respectfully, I question the premise of the original thread title that suggest that the 1911 platform "don't work". Mine purchased NIB and without modification (other than Hogue FG grips) has worked so very well with a round-count-per session that exceeds anything I've asked of any autoloader I've owned (I have 14). None have been expected to bang out 1000 rounds in 8-10 weeks (4 or 5 session)...my SA Mil-Spec just seems to keep on chugging, ready for more...but like any product, your experience may vary.
Safe shooting,
CZ52'
The other cure, use the stone cold reliable 8-rd Chip McCormick's Power Mag's for competition...use the partially functional 7-rd Colts for dry fire or simple target practice
...use the spring money for ammo' .In all seriousness, the research I did before buying my SA Mil-Spec and mag's pointed to several schools of thought and a variety of experiences among 1911 owners as posted on multiple forums. Put another way, the constant was variability of experience.
I read good and bad about Metalform, CM, Wilson, Ed Brown, GI, etc. The other constant was that few had good things to say about their factory mag's.
Given that I enjoy competing in "pistol games", I tried to filter some of the feedback and focused on those who indicated that they competed with their 1911's. IDPA shooters tend to shoot a lot, slide lock reloads will get some sand in the mag'...tactical or reload with retention will involve some hard slamming into the well. If a mag' stands up to this kind of use, it should do me just fine. While there were no absolutes, the CM 8-rd Power Mag's with Pad seemed to get the best overall reviews for reliability, durability...and value.
I haven't had mine long enough to stand the test the time...but so far, so good. My experience has tracked to that of the CM advocates. I continue to practice with my Mil-Spec with a goal of shooting it competitively in the fall (right now I'll probably stick with my Glocks...simple, reliable, and accurate enough for the distances of the average IDPA stage).
Bottom line, respectfully, I question the premise of the original thread title that suggest that the 1911 platform "don't work". Mine purchased NIB and without modification (other than Hogue FG grips) has worked so very well with a round-count-per session that exceeds anything I've asked of any autoloader I've owned (I have 14). None have been expected to bang out 1000 rounds in 8-10 weeks (4 or 5 session)...my SA Mil-Spec just seems to keep on chugging, ready for more...but like any product, your experience may vary.
Safe shooting,
CZ52'
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
re:
Quote:
The other cure, use the stone cold reliable 8-rd Chip McCormick's Power Mag's for competition...
________________________
Until the your extractor fails due to the last round gettin' ahead of the slide and starts climbin' the rim...or you start gettin' Bolt Over Base feeds and
a primer pressure detonates when the slide hits the round in just the right place...Can anybody say "frag" less than two feet from your nose?
Several years ago, when I was a young pup...I heeded Ken Hallock's advice
to remove the dimple from the followers to make the last round feed smoother. I learned that it was a mistake...and just because a man writes
a book, that it doesn't necessarily mean that he understands how the gun works.
I'll say it again...That silly dimple is there for a reason. Whenever you change one thing on a successful design, you change other things along with it. Just because the gun is runnin', doesn't mean that it's runnin' right.
Wolff mag springs are less than 6 bucks a copy...and around $3.50 if
you qualify for Brownells' discount. I mentioned that I had "fixed" several
malfunctioning pistols with a good magazine. I also have "fixed" dozens of
"junk" factory magazines with Wolff 11-pound mag springs. I don't know why the manufacturers insist on saving a quarter per spring by going with
the cheapest ones they can find... (I don't understand why Metalform doesn't just use Wolff springs in all their magazines to begin with. They'd hcorner the magazine market if they did.) If the Big Three would simply opt for the Wolff springs from their vendor...which is usually Metalform...their service techs would be like the Maytag Repairman.
Cheers all!
Tuner
Quote:
The other cure, use the stone cold reliable 8-rd Chip McCormick's Power Mag's for competition...
________________________
Until the your extractor fails due to the last round gettin' ahead of the slide and starts climbin' the rim...or you start gettin' Bolt Over Base feeds and
a primer pressure detonates when the slide hits the round in just the right place...Can anybody say "frag" less than two feet from your nose?
Several years ago, when I was a young pup...I heeded Ken Hallock's advice
to remove the dimple from the followers to make the last round feed smoother. I learned that it was a mistake...and just because a man writes
a book, that it doesn't necessarily mean that he understands how the gun works.
I'll say it again...That silly dimple is there for a reason. Whenever you change one thing on a successful design, you change other things along with it. Just because the gun is runnin', doesn't mean that it's runnin' right.
Wolff mag springs are less than 6 bucks a copy...and around $3.50 if
you qualify for Brownells' discount. I mentioned that I had "fixed" several
malfunctioning pistols with a good magazine. I also have "fixed" dozens of
"junk" factory magazines with Wolff 11-pound mag springs. I don't know why the manufacturers insist on saving a quarter per spring by going with
the cheapest ones they can find... (I don't understand why Metalform doesn't just use Wolff springs in all their magazines to begin with. They'd hcorner the magazine market if they did.) If the Big Three would simply opt for the Wolff springs from their vendor...which is usually Metalform...their service techs would be like the Maytag Repairman.
Cheers all!
Tuner
CZ52GUY
Member
Respectfully...
...to raise this kind of alarm...
...I'd be interested in hearing more evidence than an assertion with conviction from a knowledgable source.
Recommending 7-rd mag's is certainly within the rights of an individual as experienced as Mr. Tuner. However, suggesting that using widely available/popular 8-rd mag's represents a hazard to an individual who chooses to do so and those who may be nearby seems a little over the top.
Not trying to start a flame fest, but in a litigous society like the one we live in, claims like these seem less than responsible unless backed up by compelling evidence. Folks come to boards like this one to get good information. When someone as knowledgable as Mr. Tuner makes these assertions, folks will listen.
It seems like many 1911 enthusiasts who do a lot of shooting manage to avoid unwanted detonations like the one described while using 8-rd magazines from reputable manufacturers. Suggesting that fidelity to the original design is fine. Making claims of a hazard of this type seems reckless without real life examples.
In the end, board members will have to draw their own conclusions based on the evidence available to them.
Stay safe,
CZ52'
...to raise this kind of alarm...
...I'd be interested in hearing more evidence than an assertion with conviction from a knowledgable source.
Recommending 7-rd mag's is certainly within the rights of an individual as experienced as Mr. Tuner. However, suggesting that using widely available/popular 8-rd mag's represents a hazard to an individual who chooses to do so and those who may be nearby seems a little over the top.
Not trying to start a flame fest, but in a litigous society like the one we live in, claims like these seem less than responsible unless backed up by compelling evidence. Folks come to boards like this one to get good information. When someone as knowledgable as Mr. Tuner makes these assertions, folks will listen.
It seems like many 1911 enthusiasts who do a lot of shooting manage to avoid unwanted detonations like the one described while using 8-rd magazines from reputable manufacturers. Suggesting that fidelity to the original design is fine. Making claims of a hazard of this type seems reckless without real life examples.
In the end, board members will have to draw their own conclusions based on the evidence available to them.
Stay safe,
CZ52'
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Self-Evident
.I'd be interested in hearing more evidence than an assertion with conviction from a knowledgable source.
Sir,
I make an effort here to accurately report what I have seen and experienced over the years. If my favorite brand of whatever I report about fails to live up to expectations, I don't spin the results to favor my choice of parts or accessories. Neither do I make a flat statement on any product based on my own preferences. I make these statements based on experience and very often lengthy and expensive experimentation and research. I will go to great lengths to prove or disprove a theory...my own included. If something fails, I say that it has failed, and the statement is
never made based on one example or experience. If something fails, I work to see if it will repeat the failure. If it fails again, I keep looking...
and the third time's the charm, or so it's said.
You may trust them with your life if you wish. I won't.
EDIT:
In the interest of keeping to the high road, I have deleted much of my response. I have no beef with McCormick or any other manufacturer or supplier, and don't wish to come across as bashing any of their products.
Be of good cheer...Hear?
Tuner
.I'd be interested in hearing more evidence than an assertion with conviction from a knowledgable source.
Sir,
I make an effort here to accurately report what I have seen and experienced over the years. If my favorite brand of whatever I report about fails to live up to expectations, I don't spin the results to favor my choice of parts or accessories. Neither do I make a flat statement on any product based on my own preferences. I make these statements based on experience and very often lengthy and expensive experimentation and research. I will go to great lengths to prove or disprove a theory...my own included. If something fails, I say that it has failed, and the statement is
never made based on one example or experience. If something fails, I work to see if it will repeat the failure. If it fails again, I keep looking...
and the third time's the charm, or so it's said.
You may trust them with your life if you wish. I won't.
EDIT:
In the interest of keeping to the high road, I have deleted much of my response. I have no beef with McCormick or any other manufacturer or supplier, and don't wish to come across as bashing any of their products.
Be of good cheer...Hear?
Tuner
Last edited:
I agree with Tuner. I have experimented with non-extended 8 round .45 magazines. I never broke an extractor for the simple reason I discontinued their use before anything happened. Unless it is lengthened a box magazine can only hold so many cartridges, plus the spring and follower. Browning designed his magazine to hold 7, with a follower that worked - at least for hardball, which is all he had to contend with - and not over-stress the spring. Of course the gamers couldn't be satisfied with this, so they played around until that 8th round could be squeezed in. In my experience it wasn't too long before the last round would bobble, particularly if other modifications to the gun shortened the slides run-up on the cartridge. I don’t care to compromise reliability to gain one extra round. Eight rounds may be an issue in some games, but it isn’t one on the streets.
I don't give a hoot about what others carry in their guns, but mine have standard 7-round ones' with standard followers and sometimes Wolff replacement springs - nothing else. My personal experience dates back to 1949, and my guns work - always. Nuff said.
I don't give a hoot about what others carry in their guns, but mine have standard 7-round ones' with standard followers and sometimes Wolff replacement springs - nothing else. My personal experience dates back to 1949, and my guns work - always. Nuff said.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
re:
Howdy Fuff,
Thanks for the backup on this old argument...but I fear that we are trying to plow the sea...
Gentlemen...Use'em if ya got'em! we old geezers will stick to what's
worked for 92 years and countin'.
Bedtime! I'll be back on at 0400
Howdy Fuff,
Thanks for the backup on this old argument...but I fear that we are trying to plow the sea...
Gentlemen...Use'em if ya got'em! we old geezers will stick to what's
worked for 92 years and countin'.
Bedtime! I'll be back on at 0400
People talk of the reliablity of the Glocks, Sigs, Berettas, and others. You notice that there is no booming aftermarket parts industry for those designs? Those pistols are shot as they come from the factory or with factory spec parts. The 1911 has been modified and remodified from it's original design and specs by different makers and aftermarket parts. Then after all these changes have been made to the pistol people complain about it not being reliable. Reconfigure any part of any machine and you change it's dynamics. If you must modify your 1911 then at least take the time to learn what you are doing and why.
Remember, the 1911 helped set the bar on performance that the pistols since then have strived to attain.
Remember, the 1911 helped set the bar on performance that the pistols since then have strived to attain.
marauder220
Member
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2003
- Messages
- 26
I've always had spotty luck with 1911's ranging from high-end pieces to GI models. Currently I have a Kimber TLE II which I carried on duty for awhile, and as of now has fired just over 2,000rnds of assorted ammunition with only 2 malfunctions, both magazine related. I used Kimber factory 8rnd mags that didn't like being loaded with all 8rnds. Loaded with 7 and no problem. I am also hesitant to buy ANY 1911 since I've had prior bad experiences with them. Currently I either carry a Sig P220 or Beretta 92FS backed up by a SW 642 .38. The P220 and Beretta have gone well over 8,000rnds each without any problems. I replace springs regularly but thats it. I have come to think that many of the problems with the 1911 isn't the design, but the inconsistant quality of manufacture from various sources.
CZ52GUY
Member
re: Self-evident
Respectfully, you didn't answer the question.
What may be self-evident to you is not necessarily so to others.
You advocate traditional 7-rd mag's, no issue there.
Others advocate the benefits of widely used standard length 8-rd mag's. You put forward a plausible scenario where their use could result in a safety hazard...said hazard as described posing risk not only to the shooter, but anyone in close proximity to them.
There is a difference between a risk that is plausible and one that is probable. There is also value in describing what might be done to mitigate that risk.
Mr. Fuff describes his experience with them as being mitigated by not running them to a point where the risk scenario would be realized.
I think many would find it useful to expound upon the nature of the risk, the warning signs that might be looked for to say time for repair or even discard, etc.
I have no dog in this fight other than my experience in life in risk management as part of my vocation. Possible risks are sometimes described as probable (we see consumer safety alarmism all the time in the media...including attempts to restrict sale of firearms in the name of product safety). Sort of like the story of the boy who cried wolf, folks get desensitized to claims of severe hazard that are contrary to common life experience, or common sense.
Sir, I have no fight with you and attempted to go to great lengths to respect your expertise. What I've called you on is your characterization of risk on the use of a product type (brand name being irrelevant assuming quality product from reputable manufacturer) that many seem to enjoy without experiencing the severe hazard you mentioned.
I would ask you to re-read my original post and to take it with the high road intent I put forward. I was reacting to the nature of the alarm raised and the manner in which many might take it, as a blanket statement. Taken to a logical extreme put in a mathematical equation, use of standard length 8-rd mag's in a 1911 = probable risk of extreme safety hazard.
I don't think you would say "use 'em if you got 'em" if you believed that the risk was probable or unavoidable. I don't think you wish on any of us, even those who may disagree with a specific statement you make from time to time, severe injury...or to their loved ones who may be in close proximity.
A clarification of your alarm, and some good advice about how it can be avoided short of don't ever use 'em (most folks seem to use them safely...so there has to be a way), would be in keeping with the quality advice you dispense on a daily basis.
Stay safe,
CZ52'
Respectfully, you didn't answer the question.
What may be self-evident to you is not necessarily so to others.
You advocate traditional 7-rd mag's, no issue there.
Others advocate the benefits of widely used standard length 8-rd mag's. You put forward a plausible scenario where their use could result in a safety hazard...said hazard as described posing risk not only to the shooter, but anyone in close proximity to them.
There is a difference between a risk that is plausible and one that is probable. There is also value in describing what might be done to mitigate that risk.
Mr. Fuff describes his experience with them as being mitigated by not running them to a point where the risk scenario would be realized.
I think many would find it useful to expound upon the nature of the risk, the warning signs that might be looked for to say time for repair or even discard, etc.
I have no dog in this fight other than my experience in life in risk management as part of my vocation. Possible risks are sometimes described as probable (we see consumer safety alarmism all the time in the media...including attempts to restrict sale of firearms in the name of product safety). Sort of like the story of the boy who cried wolf, folks get desensitized to claims of severe hazard that are contrary to common life experience, or common sense.
Sir, I have no fight with you and attempted to go to great lengths to respect your expertise. What I've called you on is your characterization of risk on the use of a product type (brand name being irrelevant assuming quality product from reputable manufacturer) that many seem to enjoy without experiencing the severe hazard you mentioned.
I would ask you to re-read my original post and to take it with the high road intent I put forward. I was reacting to the nature of the alarm raised and the manner in which many might take it, as a blanket statement. Taken to a logical extreme put in a mathematical equation, use of standard length 8-rd mag's in a 1911 = probable risk of extreme safety hazard.
I don't think you would say "use 'em if you got 'em" if you believed that the risk was probable or unavoidable. I don't think you wish on any of us, even those who may disagree with a specific statement you make from time to time, severe injury...or to their loved ones who may be in close proximity.
A clarification of your alarm, and some good advice about how it can be avoided short of don't ever use 'em (most folks seem to use them safely...so there has to be a way), would be in keeping with the quality advice you dispense on a daily basis.
Stay safe,
CZ52'
I'm very interested in knowing exactly what would have to take place in order to set up a situation where an 8 round magazine will help to cause a detonation. A scary thought to be sure.
My last purchase of a 1911 is a blued Gold Cup Trophy, and it came with one 7 round and one 8 round magazine. In the booklet, the 8 round is recommended for semi wadcutters, and the feed lips are what I've heard called a fixed release. The feed lips run parallel for a short distance and then flare out abruptly to the width of the magazine body.
I personally stopped using 8 round magazines because they did not feed as reliably as the standard 7 round, all using what is called a variable release-meaning the feed lips opening has a constant angle from the back of the mag to the front.
For me, it was easy to tell just by feeding a round into the chamber-the 8 round mag made a "ker-chunk" sound, and the slide was noticably slower in coming into battery than the 7 round, which was so fast that you cannot hardly see the round being stripped and fed. That told me what I needed to know right there so far as being reliable.
Tuner? Fuff? Anybody? Why is this?
My last purchase of a 1911 is a blued Gold Cup Trophy, and it came with one 7 round and one 8 round magazine. In the booklet, the 8 round is recommended for semi wadcutters, and the feed lips are what I've heard called a fixed release. The feed lips run parallel for a short distance and then flare out abruptly to the width of the magazine body.
I personally stopped using 8 round magazines because they did not feed as reliably as the standard 7 round, all using what is called a variable release-meaning the feed lips opening has a constant angle from the back of the mag to the front.
For me, it was easy to tell just by feeding a round into the chamber-the 8 round mag made a "ker-chunk" sound, and the slide was noticably slower in coming into battery than the 7 round, which was so fast that you cannot hardly see the round being stripped and fed. That told me what I needed to know right there so far as being reliable.
Tuner? Fuff? Anybody? Why is this?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
re: Self-Evident(Long)
There is a difference between a risk that is plausible and one that is probable. There is also value in describing what might be done to mitigate that risk.
Hello again,
If you've seen many rideover feeds, you'll note that they get caught in
different positions...depending on where the breechface happens to catch the round. That slide weighs nearly a pound, and traveling fast when it
doesn't actually strip and chamber a round. I've seen hundreds. I've witnessed two pressure detonations that resulted from the occurence. I've NEVER seen a rideover feed when a proper magazine with good springs was used.
I've seen most of them occur with improper magazines...even new ones
with strong springs. Most have been of the 8-round variety. I don't use
those BECAUSE of the issues that I've noticed over the course of 40 years.
I was playing with modifying standard magazines to take 8 rounds before
Devel introduced the first commercial ones. The results were dismal.
Incidentally, the Devel follower design is exactly the same as in the Shooting Stars and the Powermags.
I've seen "extractor breakers" magically stop breaking extractors whenever proper magazines were used. I don't base my judgements on
what I see happen once or twice...or with one pistol/magazine combination. I don't spin the results of experiments to favor or disfavor anything or to prove my theories. If somebody would come up with an 8-round design that was as reliable in every way as the standard magazines, I would be the first to shout it from the rooftops. So far,
there hasn't been....and yes...I've tested two of the "New and Improved"
Tripp Research Cobras. Better...but still not quite there yet.
As for the risk, and my statement to "Use'em if ya got'em....There's no
way TO mitigate that risk except to use proper magazines. The magazine that works fine today may suddenly stop working tomorrow. All it takes is a little spring fatigue...very little in this case. The springs are already on the edge because of the reduced number of turns. Increase the wire diameter, and you can't load it to capacity. Decrease it, and it won't work in the majority of guns. There simply isn't as much leeway with the modified springs.
I said "Use'em if ya got'em" mainly because I'm tired of sitting here on this keyboard for hours a day trying to present logical reasons to people who
take it as a personal affront that I have "dissed" their choice of accessories.
Too many flame wars have been fought here over magazines. I've pointed to the stumbling block, and that's all I can do. Whenever a demand to
"Prove it" is thrown out...there's no way that I can prove it. I don't keep
documentation or photos. I'm a pistolsmith...not a research scientist. The
proof will only come when it happens to the individual. My experience and my word is all I can offer...and if you knew me personally, that would mean more.
I will only add that IF your rideover feed gets rammed in just the right place...or in the wrong place, as it may be...the primer CAN pressure detonate...just the same as laying the round on a concrete slab and beating on it with a hammer. IF...that happens, a miniature fragmentation
device has fired less than 2 feet from the end of your nose. Since I don't
walk around town with safety glasses on, I won't take even a small risk with MY eyes for one extra round. Think of it as a trip down the Highway of No Return.
Think about it....please.
There is a difference between a risk that is plausible and one that is probable. There is also value in describing what might be done to mitigate that risk.
Hello again,
If you've seen many rideover feeds, you'll note that they get caught in
different positions...depending on where the breechface happens to catch the round. That slide weighs nearly a pound, and traveling fast when it
doesn't actually strip and chamber a round. I've seen hundreds. I've witnessed two pressure detonations that resulted from the occurence. I've NEVER seen a rideover feed when a proper magazine with good springs was used.
I've seen most of them occur with improper magazines...even new ones
with strong springs. Most have been of the 8-round variety. I don't use
those BECAUSE of the issues that I've noticed over the course of 40 years.
I was playing with modifying standard magazines to take 8 rounds before
Devel introduced the first commercial ones. The results were dismal.
Incidentally, the Devel follower design is exactly the same as in the Shooting Stars and the Powermags.
I've seen "extractor breakers" magically stop breaking extractors whenever proper magazines were used. I don't base my judgements on
what I see happen once or twice...or with one pistol/magazine combination. I don't spin the results of experiments to favor or disfavor anything or to prove my theories. If somebody would come up with an 8-round design that was as reliable in every way as the standard magazines, I would be the first to shout it from the rooftops. So far,
there hasn't been....and yes...I've tested two of the "New and Improved"
Tripp Research Cobras. Better...but still not quite there yet.
As for the risk, and my statement to "Use'em if ya got'em....There's no
way TO mitigate that risk except to use proper magazines. The magazine that works fine today may suddenly stop working tomorrow. All it takes is a little spring fatigue...very little in this case. The springs are already on the edge because of the reduced number of turns. Increase the wire diameter, and you can't load it to capacity. Decrease it, and it won't work in the majority of guns. There simply isn't as much leeway with the modified springs.
I said "Use'em if ya got'em" mainly because I'm tired of sitting here on this keyboard for hours a day trying to present logical reasons to people who
take it as a personal affront that I have "dissed" their choice of accessories.
Too many flame wars have been fought here over magazines. I've pointed to the stumbling block, and that's all I can do. Whenever a demand to
"Prove it" is thrown out...there's no way that I can prove it. I don't keep
documentation or photos. I'm a pistolsmith...not a research scientist. The
proof will only come when it happens to the individual. My experience and my word is all I can offer...and if you knew me personally, that would mean more.
I will only add that IF your rideover feed gets rammed in just the right place...or in the wrong place, as it may be...the primer CAN pressure detonate...just the same as laying the round on a concrete slab and beating on it with a hammer. IF...that happens, a miniature fragmentation
device has fired less than 2 feet from the end of your nose. Since I don't
walk around town with safety glasses on, I won't take even a small risk with MY eyes for one extra round. Think of it as a trip down the Highway of No Return.
Think about it....please.
CZ52GUY
Member
re: 1911Tuner
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
Board members will need to draw their own conclusions based on all the information at their disposal.
I did not take and do not take any personal afront from your comments. I did not intend to to inflict a personal attack. I was reacting to the statement of hazard as written. What concerned me, is that the hazard was described without the benefit of sufficient supporting context.
You provided that context, and I thank you.
For me, I am unable to reconcile observed performance, documented performance and endorsement of same with sufficient probability of spontaneous occurrence of the hazard you describe to change my choice of magazines to use in my 1911.
Again, I did not wake up one day seeking to pick a fight with a good man. I reacted to your comment as presented. I hope that in the end you can appreciate that on some topics, good people will disagree.
Stay safe,
CZ52'
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
Board members will need to draw their own conclusions based on all the information at their disposal.
I did not take and do not take any personal afront from your comments. I did not intend to to inflict a personal attack. I was reacting to the statement of hazard as written. What concerned me, is that the hazard was described without the benefit of sufficient supporting context.
You provided that context, and I thank you.
For me, I am unable to reconcile observed performance, documented performance and endorsement of same with sufficient probability of spontaneous occurrence of the hazard you describe to change my choice of magazines to use in my 1911.
Again, I did not wake up one day seeking to pick a fight with a good man. I reacted to your comment as presented. I hope that in the end you can appreciate that on some topics, good people will disagree.
Stay safe,
CZ52'
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
re:
CZ said:
Again, I did not wake up one day seeking to pick a fight with a good man. I reacted to your comment as presented.
Nor did I. I probably reacted to what I perceived to be an insinuation
that I would make a broad statement based on my own preferences
or biases. I know that I would never do that...but some people don't.
If I overreacted, I apologize. It had been a long time from 0400 yesterday until I answered that at 2200 hours last night.
Promise me one thing...and you don't have to respond publicly. If and when
you have one of the above-mentioned issues with your Powermags...let me know. Meanwhile, you can experiment a little on your own to see how critical the spring rate is. The only real difference between Powermag and
Shooting Star is the spring. Buy two new ones of each and start shooting.
Note the number of failures with the Stars...any failure....as opposed to the Powermags Try to start the experiment with a fresh recoil spring for each magazine...in order to keep it apples to apples...and let me know what you see.
There's method to this madness...I'm working with another guy on a
spring and follower design that will hopefully change things. If we can
get the kinks worked out...I'll send you a set to install in the Shooting Star
and re-test.
CZ said:
Again, I did not wake up one day seeking to pick a fight with a good man. I reacted to your comment as presented.
Nor did I. I probably reacted to what I perceived to be an insinuation
that I would make a broad statement based on my own preferences
or biases. I know that I would never do that...but some people don't.
If I overreacted, I apologize. It had been a long time from 0400 yesterday until I answered that at 2200 hours last night.
Promise me one thing...and you don't have to respond publicly. If and when
you have one of the above-mentioned issues with your Powermags...let me know. Meanwhile, you can experiment a little on your own to see how critical the spring rate is. The only real difference between Powermag and
Shooting Star is the spring. Buy two new ones of each and start shooting.
Note the number of failures with the Stars...any failure....as opposed to the Powermags Try to start the experiment with a fresh recoil spring for each magazine...in order to keep it apples to apples...and let me know what you see.
There's method to this madness...I'm working with another guy on a
spring and follower design that will hopefully change things. If we can
get the kinks worked out...I'll send you a set to install in the Shooting Star
and re-test.
- Status
