mljdeckard
Member
But Browning had already designed hammerless guns. It had certainly occurred to HIM to make it an option.
Why carry a 1911 in Condition 1 over Condition 2?
- Thread starter stchman
- Start date
- Status
orionengnr
Member
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2005
- Messages
- 5,715
Sorry, but this statement makes absolutely no sense at all. A live round is a live round no matter what you "know", no matter who you are, no matter what you think or what you say...
If you are saying that you can mitigate the risk, I agree. However, "mitigate" is not the same as "eliminate". It is still a live round (see above).
I have read every post in this thread, and many other threads on the same subject. While I can perhaps see Tuner's special circumstance for not getting mud/detritus into the open hammer/firing pin area (and since I don't Open Carry or own an ATV, this one circumstance has no practical use for me) I see no other reason to carry a 1911 in anything other than C1.
Just my .02.
JTQ
Member
For me, this is the definitive post on Condition 2. With all due respect to fellow site member "PcolaDawg" I link to his post.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=441761&highlight=pcoladawg
christcorp wrote,
I don't think "pcoladawg" is retarded. I think he is probably a pretty safe and conscientious gun owner, just like the rest of us, that, for a split second, lost control of the hammer of his 1911 while putting it into Condition 2. What are the chances of it happening again to "pcoladawg", or to anyone of us? Pretty small.
What are the chances any of us will have a Negligent Discharge (ND) putting the pistol into Condition 1 or Condition 3? It may not be 0 (admittedly anything could be possible), but the chance of a ND going to Condition 1 or 3 is significantly less than Condition 2.
While I think it is good to have an option like Condition 2 for 1911 users, and it is probably a good one for an experienced user like "christcorp". However, for the new user, Condition 1 or Condition 3 are better choices. Of the three Conditions, Condition 2 requires the most skill and concentration from the user while Condition 1 and 3 require the least user skill and allow the user to take advantage of the redundant safety system of the 1911.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=441761&highlight=pcoladawg
christcorp wrote,
I don't think "pcoladawg" is retarded. I think he is probably a pretty safe and conscientious gun owner, just like the rest of us, that, for a split second, lost control of the hammer of his 1911 while putting it into Condition 2. What are the chances of it happening again to "pcoladawg", or to anyone of us? Pretty small.
What are the chances any of us will have a Negligent Discharge (ND) putting the pistol into Condition 1 or Condition 3? It may not be 0 (admittedly anything could be possible), but the chance of a ND going to Condition 1 or 3 is significantly less than Condition 2.
While I think it is good to have an option like Condition 2 for 1911 users, and it is probably a good one for an experienced user like "christcorp". However, for the new user, Condition 1 or Condition 3 are better choices. Of the three Conditions, Condition 2 requires the most skill and concentration from the user while Condition 1 and 3 require the least user skill and allow the user to take advantage of the redundant safety system of the 1911.
dmazur
Member
As I commented in the "pcoladawg" post, I believe it is important to be able to clear from Condition 1 to Condition 3 safely.
Even if you carry Condition 3 all the time, you want to be able to do this safely if you ever do have to rack the slide and use your weapon...you're going to have to return to your normal routine sometime.
I have seen way too many new shooters who don't seem to have too much trouble loading semi-auto pistols, but if they have to unload one (that hasn't been shot empty) it can sometimes be somewhat awkward.
Practice solves this.
Even if you carry Condition 3 all the time, you want to be able to do this safely if you ever do have to rack the slide and use your weapon...you're going to have to return to your normal routine sometime.
I have seen way too many new shooters who don't seem to have too much trouble loading semi-auto pistols, but if they have to unload one (that hasn't been shot empty) it can sometimes be somewhat awkward.
Practice solves this.
Frankh said:
There is an unlikely, but possible, combination of events that can lead to a condition 1 gun having an ND. It is virtually impossible in a secure holster and not really relevant to that mode of carry.
There is virtually no circumstance, or set of, that can result in a ND in condition 2. The inertial fp system prevents it even in the case of a direct hammer strike or drop on the hammer. For unholstered carry, it has it's advantages.
MR_A
Member
You have always heard dont go around half cocked-as this it true with the 1911.
David E
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 7,459
I asked (twice):
christcorp replied:
Christcorp, you keep making the same dodge and same mistake.
The dodge: I asked you twice, "how do you know" and twice, you dodged giving a factually based answer. It seems that you "just know," so there is no need to actually test it and see.
The mistake: First, you make a proclamation, ("It's just as fast....") stating it as unassailable fact, but it's based only on your opinion. When challenged, you change it to: "_I_ can to it just as fast..."
Those are two different statements.
If you ARE just as fast, then it betrays a lack of training and time spent taking off the safety.
That is my only point in this thread. Then you went down a rabbit trail telling me I'm wrong saying "it was designed for cocked and locked," but _I_ never made that statement, so how can I be wrong about something I didn't say?
Here's the bottom line: christcorp, I don't care how you carry your gun. I hope your method continues to work for you and nothing happens that proves otherwise.
But for others reading thru this thread, the best way to carry a 1911 for personal defense on your person is cocked and locked. This requires a certain amount of dedication to the 1911 system. C&L is not for the casual shooter. Thinking you're smarter than everyone else on the topic and deciding to carry it hammer down on a chambered round is your choice, but a poor one.
Thumb cocking the 1911 hammer is SLOWER than wiping off the safety (this presumes a proper safety and sufficient practice.) It is less positive under speed and stress. It is less consistent for a speedy first shot on target.
If you are not comfortable carrying a 1911 in Condition One, then why not find a gun that you are comfortable with that's ready to go with minimum manipulation? If you favor the 1911 for all its other features, then why not consider a Para Ordnance LDA ?
Fighting your equipment when you have a choice in the matter is ignorant.
christcorp replied:
Christcorp, you keep making the same dodge and same mistake.
The dodge: I asked you twice, "how do you know" and twice, you dodged giving a factually based answer. It seems that you "just know," so there is no need to actually test it and see.
The mistake: First, you make a proclamation, ("It's just as fast....") stating it as unassailable fact, but it's based only on your opinion. When challenged, you change it to: "_I_ can to it just as fast..."
Those are two different statements.
If you ARE just as fast, then it betrays a lack of training and time spent taking off the safety.
That is my only point in this thread. Then you went down a rabbit trail telling me I'm wrong saying "it was designed for cocked and locked," but _I_ never made that statement, so how can I be wrong about something I didn't say?
Here's the bottom line: christcorp, I don't care how you carry your gun. I hope your method continues to work for you and nothing happens that proves otherwise.
But for others reading thru this thread, the best way to carry a 1911 for personal defense on your person is cocked and locked. This requires a certain amount of dedication to the 1911 system. C&L is not for the casual shooter. Thinking you're smarter than everyone else on the topic and deciding to carry it hammer down on a chambered round is your choice, but a poor one.
Thumb cocking the 1911 hammer is SLOWER than wiping off the safety (this presumes a proper safety and sufficient practice.) It is less positive under speed and stress. It is less consistent for a speedy first shot on target.
If you are not comfortable carrying a 1911 in Condition One, then why not find a gun that you are comfortable with that's ready to go with minimum manipulation? If you favor the 1911 for all its other features, then why not consider a Para Ordnance LDA ?
Fighting your equipment when you have a choice in the matter is ignorant.
I carry 24/7 Wilson QCB and use a wilson IWB leather holster. The holster is moulded to secure the safety. It can be forced of in the holster but reasonable force is needed.
Same would apply in condition 1 if you have a grip safety.
When the SHTF I certainly don’t want to be buggering around. That split second counts.
Guillermo
member
Not even sure why this is a debate other than the fact that we gun folks like to debate. Cocked & locked is by far the better way to carry a 1911.
A- you maintain your grip when disengaging the thumb safety which is not the case if thumbing the hammer.
B- it is quicker
C- you never have to lower a hammer onto a live round
BTW
many pistols have the safety "backwards" like a Beretta 92. After years of 1911 ownershio, were I to pick up one in order to prepare to shoot it I would push the safety lever down. Of course this would engage the safety. Because of these design of these "safeties" those guns are not welcome at my house.
A- you maintain your grip when disengaging the thumb safety which is not the case if thumbing the hammer.
B- it is quicker
C- you never have to lower a hammer onto a live round
BTW
many pistols have the safety "backwards" like a Beretta 92. After years of 1911 ownershio, were I to pick up one in order to prepare to shoot it I would push the safety lever down. Of course this would engage the safety. Because of these design of these "safeties" those guns are not welcome at my house.
CombatArmsUSAF
Member
To aid in cocking the hammer, I presume. Maybe it was a requirement for the military contract? Just because you can lower the hammer on live round, doesn't mean it's particularly safe to do so.
Also, a design that is meant to be decocked safely is a design like the Beretta 92FS. Where in the action of decocking, the possibility of hammer contact with the firing pin is eliminated 100%. Therefore eliminating the possibility of a ND/AD 100% in that particular situation.
Last edited:
David E
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 7,459
Why, yes it is and yes I do !
The thing is, if christcorp, for example, in the unlikely event prove he is "just as fast" either way, then that simply proves he has not practiced wiping off the thumb safety properly.
Likewise, if I should prove to be faster wiping off the safety, he'd say I've not spent enough time doing it the "slow" way.
Let's look at top level shooters that have the choice and see what they decide to do. Looking at IDPA and USPSA/IPSC, it appears that virtually 100% of the shooters running a 1911 based platform, including the left handed shooters, do so cocked and locked.
Why? Because it's FASTER, MORE RELIABLE and results in a MORE CONSISTENT FIRST SHOT.
If SPEED, RELIABILITY and CONSISTENCY don't matter to you, then thumb cocking the hammer is perfectly fine, as is starting from Condition 3, or even an unloaded gun.
mljdeckard
Member
But there is never any need to cock the hammer if you leave it cocked when you chamber a round. The only reason for a spur is to DEcock it. Just because other pistold were LATER designed with a .....backwards positive safety rotating decocker doesn't mean that the 1911 was NOT designed to be decocked.
+1 to mljdeckard - later innovations don't "backwardly predict" what a prior design was trying to do or capable of...
The statement was about creating a ND, not merely inadvertently releasing the thumb safety. It takes a whole lot more than that to create an ND in a holstered weapon.
No, the grip safety would be pointless if a direct hammer strike on a Condition 1 gun defeated the cocking notch(es). The grip safety works solely on the trigger bow to prevent sear spring release. To understand the safeties, STI has an excellent animation you can customize here:
http://www.m1911.org/loader.swf
That is your choice, certainly. The point is there are various acceptable methods of carry, and anyone is free to choose the one they want for a given situation or set of circumstances.
The gun is a versatile platform that can be carried in a variety of ways with varying levels of safety and readiness. No single one is superior in all aspects in all circumstances.
Frankh said:
The statement was about creating a ND, not merely inadvertently releasing the thumb safety. It takes a whole lot more than that to create an ND in a holstered weapon.
Frankh said:
No, the grip safety would be pointless if a direct hammer strike on a Condition 1 gun defeated the cocking notch(es). The grip safety works solely on the trigger bow to prevent sear spring release. To understand the safeties, STI has an excellent animation you can customize here:
http://www.m1911.org/loader.swf
Frankh said:
That is your choice, certainly. The point is there are various acceptable methods of carry, and anyone is free to choose the one they want for a given situation or set of circumstances.
The gun is a versatile platform that can be carried in a variety of ways with varying levels of safety and readiness. No single one is superior in all aspects in all circumstances.
kwelz
Member
Carrying a 1911 in condition 2 or even three is the same as carrying it with no ammo in the gun at all.
Seriously, if you don't feel comfortable enough to carry the gun then don't carry it. But don't put yourself and others in danger by carrying it in such a way that you have to screw around with the hammer in an attempt to make it usable.
And as for people that feel it is no different than working the safety, you are ignoring the ergonomics of the firearm. Your thumb naturally rests on the safety. to cock the hammer you must shift your grip and in doing so youa re putting your thumb in a place you don't want it to be on a firearm.
Seriously, if you don't feel comfortable enough to carry the gun then don't carry it. But don't put yourself and others in danger by carrying it in such a way that you have to screw around with the hammer in an attempt to make it usable.
And as for people that feel it is no different than working the safety, you are ignoring the ergonomics of the firearm. Your thumb naturally rests on the safety. to cock the hammer you must shift your grip and in doing so youa re putting your thumb in a place you don't want it to be on a firearm.
mljdeckard
Member
I'll clarify a bit on what I said before.
I carry condition 2 in my fanny pack because I have pulled it out and found the safety worked off, and I don't know how it happened. It takes long enough to draw this way that it doesn't make much difference. I carry condition 2 when I'm on horses or ATVs because I commonly get a LOT of dust on it, and I don't like looking down and seeing the strike face caked with dust. Other than that, IWB, OWB, or shoulder carry, it's condition 1.
I carry condition 2 in my fanny pack because I have pulled it out and found the safety worked off, and I don't know how it happened. It takes long enough to draw this way that it doesn't make much difference. I carry condition 2 when I'm on horses or ATVs because I commonly get a LOT of dust on it, and I don't like looking down and seeing the strike face caked with dust. Other than that, IWB, OWB, or shoulder carry, it's condition 1.
jdh
Member
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1,375
The 1911 is a single action. That being the case there is no second strike capability. The hammer spur is there so you can re-cock the hammer to get a second strike on a cartridge that did not fire the first time. Yes, most users are taught the immediate action drill of tap-rack-fire. BUT, there are some conditions where a second hit on the primer is the best course of action.
the process of dropping the hammer time after time day after day on a loaded round is simply unsafe and in the instance that you actually need the gun, you must first cock it... if you dont feel safe carrying a 1911 cocked and locked, sell it and get a double action.
mljdeckard
Member
jdh-
When is it EVER better to re-fire the same cartridge than rack and fire a new one?
When is it EVER better to re-fire the same cartridge than rack and fire a new one?
earlthegoat2
Member
Because if you arent up to carrying condition one then you are not up to carrying any gun with a round in the chamber. I see no difference between carrying a 1911 condition one and carrying one in the pipe on a Glock, or a revovler with a loaded cylinder.
If you are not up to carrying a 1911 condition one then carry something you are comfortable with carrying a round in the chamber. Condition one carry is the best and fastest and safest way to carry the gun with a round chambered. In a world of compromises this is the compromise of the 1911. To have speed with this gun you need a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked. That is why there is a manual safety.
You cannot even call yourself a fan of the 1911 if you cannot muster the nerves to carry condition 1. Get a different gun. Get a revolver.
Or better yet get a Para Ordinance LDA so you can have the hammer down and the safety on. Of course then you dont have a traditional 1911, but rather another cookie cutter double action pistol with the looks of a 1911.
If you are not up to carrying a 1911 condition one then carry something you are comfortable with carrying a round in the chamber. Condition one carry is the best and fastest and safest way to carry the gun with a round chambered. In a world of compromises this is the compromise of the 1911. To have speed with this gun you need a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked. That is why there is a manual safety.
You cannot even call yourself a fan of the 1911 if you cannot muster the nerves to carry condition 1. Get a different gun. Get a revolver.
Or better yet get a Para Ordinance LDA so you can have the hammer down and the safety on. Of course then you dont have a traditional 1911, but rather another cookie cutter double action pistol with the looks of a 1911.
Last edited:
I agree. While it certainly may be possible to train enough to be equally quick using either method (I remain skeptical), training and real-world are "worlds" apart. Fine motor skill goes out the window under duress.
When it's the only cartridge you have?
mljdeckard
Member
So you just keep cocking and trying to fire a cartridge you already know is defective? When you can reload just as quickly?
DougDubya
Member
Huh? Really?
Because I make the same motion to swipe the 1911 safety as I do with the 92.
But then, that's a push forward. It will push the 1911 safety down and the 92 safety up.
You've just got bad handling practices that you push down a Beretta safety.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked