Vern Humphrey
Member
To say that, you need documentation.
It's kinda like a flat tire. Tires can go flat, but they weren't designed to work that way.
Why carry a 1911 in Condition 1 over Condition 2?
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It's kinda like a flat tire. Tires can go flat, but they weren't designed to work that way.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Don't need documentation, Vern. The firing pin can't reach a primer with the hammer resting against it. That's kinda self-explanatory.
mljdeckard
Member
jdh-
You have left the realm of whether or not the hammer was designed to be de-cocked or not and into where you are screwed no matter what gun you are carrying.
You have left the realm of whether or not the hammer was designed to be de-cocked or not and into where you are screwed no matter what gun you are carrying.
Has anybody got a beater 1911 for an experiment? Mine are all pretty, and I don't want to do this with one of mine.
I'd like to hear of somebody taking a 1911, putting a primed, EMPTY case in it, lowering the hammer (to replicate Cond. 2), and then start whacking the gun's hammer with a small ballpeen hammer to see how hard it really is to set off the primer.
I'd like to know just how difficult it really is to fire the weapon in Con. 2 by a blow to the hammer. Hey, this would be a great YouTube video!
I'd like to hear of somebody taking a 1911, putting a primed, EMPTY case in it, lowering the hammer (to replicate Cond. 2), and then start whacking the gun's hammer with a small ballpeen hammer to see how hard it really is to set off the primer.
I'd like to know just how difficult it really is to fire the weapon in Con. 2 by a blow to the hammer. Hey, this would be a great YouTube video!
ugaarguy
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It won't go off. The hammer has to be back so the firing pin spring can push the firing pin back, allowing it to protrude from the rear of the firing pin channel. From there, the hammer falls on the protruding firing pin sending it forward, via inertia, into the primer. The firing pin is shorter than the firing pin channel, so the only way to get primer contact is via inertia as mentioned above.
The danger with condition 2 isn't that the hammer is down. It's the risk that you lose control of the hammer as you're lowering it, sending it into the primer of a live round, causing an AD.
The only way I know of to get a condition 2 1911 to fire is for it to land on the muzzle after a pretty high drop. In this case the gun's movement is stopped by the deck, but the firing pin keeps moving, overcoming the FP spring. This is remedied by installing a titanium firing pin, and slightly heavier FP spring. This combination eliminates the FP having enough inertia to overcome the FP spring in all but the most extreme circumstances.
dmazur
Member
And the Series 80 Colts (and imitators) have a firing pin block that "helps" get it into Condition 2 with slightly more safety...All you have to do is get the hammer to move slightly, with your thumb (opposite thumb?) blocking it, then let go of the trigger. That activates the firing pin block. If the hammer should slip, the firing pin is blocked, even if the final hammer notch doesn't catch it.
Theoretically, the hammer can be lowered from this final notch gently without damaging the sear or creating an AD.
However, even though this mechanism is there, I still don't do it.
Theoretically, the hammer can be lowered from this final notch gently without damaging the sear or creating an AD.
However, even though this mechanism is there, I still don't do it.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Lord...
If I had a video camera, I'd make a little movie demonstrating the correct, safe method for lowering a hammer...and another segment demonstrating the correct, safe method for executing a pinch check.
Hint:
You don't pull the trigger and try to catch the hammer. You get full control of it before you touch the trigger. This is SOP when decocking ANY gun. It's a good habit to get into, even with a pistol that has a decock function. The hammer falling is ultimately what fires the gun. If the hammer can't fall...the gun can't fire.
Pinch check hint:
You place your strong-side thumb on the hammer and get control of it before placing your other thumb into the trigger guard.That allows the grip safety to engage the trigger and block it...and it prevents the hammer from falling in any event.
Hint:
THe checkering on the hammer isn't for decocking. It's for cocking the hammer.
Won't help a bit. The Series 80 safety disengages when you pull the trigger.
If I had a video camera, I'd make a little movie demonstrating the correct, safe method for lowering a hammer...and another segment demonstrating the correct, safe method for executing a pinch check.
Hint:
You don't pull the trigger and try to catch the hammer. You get full control of it before you touch the trigger. This is SOP when decocking ANY gun. It's a good habit to get into, even with a pistol that has a decock function. The hammer falling is ultimately what fires the gun. If the hammer can't fall...the gun can't fire.
Pinch check hint:
You place your strong-side thumb on the hammer and get control of it before placing your other thumb into the trigger guard.That allows the grip safety to engage the trigger and block it...and it prevents the hammer from falling in any event.
Hint:
THe checkering on the hammer isn't for decocking. It's for cocking the hammer.
Won't help a bit. The Series 80 safety disengages when you pull the trigger.
Vern Humphrey
Member
(My emphasis)
It is true the M1911 has an inertia-type firing pin. But that's a long way from proving that the reason for that is so the pistol can be carried hammer-down.
To find the reason for a design feature, you need documentation, showing that was the intent. Clearly, the M1911 was designed to Army specifications. It was the Army that demanded the grip safety and the safety lock. And clearly the Army's intention wazs to carry either empty chamber or cocked-and-locked. That has been documented.
Now let me point out that the design includes a lanyard loop. You could carry the pistol by letting it dangle on a string -- but to say it was designed to be carried that way would a long stretch!
dmazur
Member
Yes, it does. And I continued with, "...then let go of the trigger. That activates the firing pin block."
It means that, with a Series 80, you should be able to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber without worrying about a ND if the hammer "gets away from you".
However, the rather fragile firing pin block isn't a decocker and if you ding the thing up a few times it can jam in its channel. Series 80's with poor timing cause this kind of damage sometimes. If it jams in the "up" position, and you're used to using the thing as a decocker, you find out with an ND.
Also, if you have a carefully prepped hammer and sear, you may not want to damage the sear on that final notch by letting the hammer slip. (No longer a "half cock", but there's still another notch on the hammer on a Series 80.)
So, the "belts and suspenders" design of the Series 80 is nice, but it doesn't really offer much. Maybe for those folks who can't believe the slide safety (thumb safety) is going to function, the Series 80 firing pin block is another layer of defense against ND's.
I have one Commander with the firing pin block and another without. For me, there's absolutely no difference in how I use them.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
You haven't been paying attention, m'fren. I never said that it was meant to be. I said that the intent was to offer a choice...and I always have. There was no intent for the gun to be carried any certain way. The intent was to allow any carry that the user chose or deemed necessary or desireable...but we'll concentrate on the inertial firing pin for the moment.
To state that it can be placed in Condition One doesn't prove that it was meant to be carried that way...only that it could be. Condition Two is assumed...the same way that it's assumed that double-action revolvers are assumed to allow being carried with a full compliment of ammunition. They can also be carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber, if so desired...or empty, as the user chooses.
There are several single-action designs out there that were decidedly not designed to carry hammer forward on a hot chamber. The 1873 SAA and the original Model 94 Winchester carbine are two such. The Star BM/BKM/PD series also will not allow it, due to the fact that the firing pin will reach the primer with the hammer resting on it. The 1911's inertial firing pin allows it. It's a choice that the design provides. A choice that's not present in all, but is present in some.
It'd be simpler and safer to just learn how to do it correctly. All that fumbling and dual manipulations make it more risky. I will concede that the customized pieces with radically upswept ducktail grip safeties and round hammers provide an excellent opportunity to have an unintended discharge while executing a decock...but that's an example of what is often lost when altering a design. Learn the drill. It's really very easy and not at all scary.
If Browning had any intent at all, it was to carry it with a loaded chamber on half-cock...but that tends to throw people into screamin' fits. It's the way that all his other exposed hammer guns were "meant" to be carried...at least if the user chose to carry it with a loaded chamber. Or are we to assume that the intent was to carry those in Condition Three?
He didn't even put a thumb safety on the gun until the U.S. Cavalry asked for one. How could his intent have been for cocked and locked when the first submissions didn't even have a lock?
Vern Humphrey
Member
When we say "intent" we are saying we can read minds -- or else we have documentation.
It was an Army pistol, designed to Army specifications (and redesigned before being accepted by the Army) and the Army definitely had intentions as to how the gun was to be carried, and those intentions were published in official documents.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
If we're gonna use a strawman, I'm game.
Let me point out that your car was designed to run faster than a hundred miles per hour. Does that mean that you should drive a hundred miles per hour all the time?
Or does it simply mean that it can be driven that fast if the need or the desire should arise?
Vern Humphrey
Member
My point, exactly. The fact that the car can run faster that a hundred miles an hour does not mean the designer intended me to drive a hundred miles an hour, nor that he considered it safe to drive that fast.
(In point of fact, when I worked for General Motors, we covered this very point -- engines are designed not for top speed but for acceleration -- merging with traffic, for example. The high speeds possible with modern engines are a consequence of that design for quick acceleration, and not an intent that the vehiles be driven at such speeds.)
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
And those published documents stated that when action is iminent...the gun CAN
be placed in Condition One if so desired. I've read many of those documents and field manuals too. Nowhere does it say that the gun should be carried in a constant cocked and locked conditon...and if we were caught with one like that without a reason, we got reamed out good and proper...just the same as with a rifle.
Vern Humphrey
Member
You're absolutely right -- the Army did prefer Condition 3 (loaded magazine, empty chamber.) But they also recognized what today we call Condition 1, cocked-and-locked.
What they did not recognize -- except to condemn -- is what we call Condition 2, hammer down on an empty chamber. From FM 25-35, "Do not lower the hammer on a loaded cartridge; the pistol is much safer cocked and locked."
So, to me the question would appear to be, for civilian concealed carry, what is best?
For an Army officer, artillery man, signal corps equipment operator, quarter corps man, whatever, in uniform and within a protected perimeter, Condition 3 would seem fine--to my mind.
For someone armed for the purpose of facing an emergent threat that may materialize in a second and a half within in an unprotected perimeter, Condition 1 would seem more appropriate.
Provided for discussion and reflection.
christcorp
Member
When I use a holster with a strap, I carry condition 1. The strap goes between the hammer and the firing pin. When I carried in other type holsters, I carried condition 2. Because of the firing pin, there was no chance of accidental discharge.
As a civilian, carrying would be defined as in an unprotected perimeter and generally under emergent threat.
I don't get why people feel the need to re-invent a very well working wheel? If you're not comfortable with cocked & locked carry, there's plenty of other good choices out there. My wife got her Para PDA with the LDA trigger for just that reason.
tipoc
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Donald E. Bady's book "Colt Automatic Pistols" documents the development of the 1911 and it's predecessors. The 1911 was intended to be carried in 3 different ways, what Jeff Cooper, many years later described as Condition 1,2 and 3. This was well documented in Bady's book, for those wanting documentation that is a good place to go.
The gun did not begin that way though. It evolved there.
Originally the 1911 had no thumb safety or grip safety. Both were added to solve specific problems that arose during field testing. The cavalry (the elite special forces units of their time) were holding out for revolvers and stubborn about it. They preferred the Colt SAA or a large caliber da revolver. To prevent the gun from accidentally discharging if a trooper was thrown from a horse the grip safety was added in 1907.
At this point about everyone else, particularly the artillery, was good to go with the 1911. Consider what that meant, a gun that had to be manually cocked and decocked like a Colt SAA. But the cavalry had another problem still. "So", they said, "We've fired 2 or 3 rounds and we are done shooting and want to reholster. Our horse is acting up and we need one hand to control the animal yet it takes two hands to decock the hammer like normal. We won't take the risk of holstering a cocked weapon (no wheelgunner would) how do we make the weapon safe or decock it one handed?"
To answer that question the thumb safety was developed. (The Walther P38 and the Radom Vis answered the same question with a decocker a few years later.)
The intent was not to build a gun that could be carried cocked and locked. The intent was to have a gun that was carried Condition 2 or 3. Condition 1 was the happy outcome to a specific question. It has become the preferred mode of carry but the other modes have always been used and will continue to be used. They have their place as the military showed by all three being used during it's service.
tipoc
The gun did not begin that way though. It evolved there.
Originally the 1911 had no thumb safety or grip safety. Both were added to solve specific problems that arose during field testing. The cavalry (the elite special forces units of their time) were holding out for revolvers and stubborn about it. They preferred the Colt SAA or a large caliber da revolver. To prevent the gun from accidentally discharging if a trooper was thrown from a horse the grip safety was added in 1907.
At this point about everyone else, particularly the artillery, was good to go with the 1911. Consider what that meant, a gun that had to be manually cocked and decocked like a Colt SAA. But the cavalry had another problem still. "So", they said, "We've fired 2 or 3 rounds and we are done shooting and want to reholster. Our horse is acting up and we need one hand to control the animal yet it takes two hands to decock the hammer like normal. We won't take the risk of holstering a cocked weapon (no wheelgunner would) how do we make the weapon safe or decock it one handed?"
To answer that question the thumb safety was developed. (The Walther P38 and the Radom Vis answered the same question with a decocker a few years later.)
The intent was not to build a gun that could be carried cocked and locked. The intent was to have a gun that was carried Condition 2 or 3. Condition 1 was the happy outcome to a specific question. It has become the preferred mode of carry but the other modes have always been used and will continue to be used. They have their place as the military showed by all three being used during it's service.
tipoc
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tipoc
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A bit more. Folks can drop by here and study the pics of the predecessors of the 1911. Use to "quick search" feature, just below the masthead, to view the pics. For example the military model of 1905 in .45 acp. Note what ain't there, no grip safety or thumb safety. Follow the evolution of the gun in the pics....http://www.coltautos.com/
Note the wide spur hammer designed to aid in cocking and decocking. The half cock notch, the tiny thumb safety,etc.
Consider that when the gun was first brought to the military for consideration it was meant to be carried in condition 2 or 3 there was no condition one. The thumb safety was meant to solve a particular problem. How to make the gun safe during interruptions in firing while on horse back and safe for one handed reholstering.
When the gun was done and adopted it could be carried 3 ways and it was.
tipoc
Note the wide spur hammer designed to aid in cocking and decocking. The half cock notch, the tiny thumb safety,etc.
Consider that when the gun was first brought to the military for consideration it was meant to be carried in condition 2 or 3 there was no condition one. The thumb safety was meant to solve a particular problem. How to make the gun safe during interruptions in firing while on horse back and safe for one handed reholstering.
When the gun was done and adopted it could be carried 3 ways and it was.
tipoc
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
I did, and I'll go correct it. Haste will be my undoing, I fear.
Yes and yes. The Army knew full well that when men are in a situation where every advantage...whether real or imagined...helps, and it makes them feel a little better...and that in such situations, regulations be damned...the pistol would be topped off with an extra, possibly lifesaving round...and the hammer lowered to give the impression of complying for the benefit of those spit'n'shine/nickel'n'dime types that are like blowflies. (They eat (expletive deleted) and bother people.)
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